INFANT BAPTISM CREATES PROBLEMS IN THE CC

[donadams]

I also want to add that one of my priest friends told me that the church would like to change this practice but it gets too much push-back from the laity.

Well....who's in charge here?
The church
or the laity??

The CC is strong on the idea that IT is the authority...
so it should USE its authority!

donadams might want to comment on this too.

change what practice?

 

[donadams]

Infant baptism is one thing I strongly am against. The PCA does infant baptism, but not Reformed Baptist, as far as I know, or maybe it's on a church-by-church basis.

Speaking only for PCA, they believe that baptism replaces circumcision as the sign of the covenant. The problem is that it is based on a failure to distinguish between the different natures of the two covenants, the first being based on nationality and ethnicity (physical), and the second being spiritual, based on belief in Christ and his atoning work.

Infant baptism has the potential negative consequence of making a person believe they are saved when they actually are not. And I think that is likely a main issue the CC and perhaps Orthodox have--too many think they are saved when they are not simply because of their baptism. Too a lesser extent, perhaps, that is also likely a problem in every church and denomination that practices infant baptism. Having said that, every church and denomination, for a variety of reasons (they had "first communion;" their parents were/are Christians; they go to church; etc.), has people in the pews that think they are Christian but are not.

It is worth noting the Didache, in talking about baptism (chapter 7), strongly suggests that it was believer's baptism in the early church and infant baptism was a later development:

"Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Apart from all the above, I simply prefer believers' baptism as usually time is given for testimony, which is good for both the encouragement of the Church and to witness to unbelievers.

Of course it's going to cause confusion!
Because baptism was meant for adults who believed.
JLB made a point of this in post no. 2

In Catholicism they teach that babies receive the Holy Spirit and Original Sin is washed away.
So how come the Holy Spirit is not helping these children to grow up as believers?

My Catholic friend practically ended up stating that all baptized persons are saved!
That would make the CC universalist in theology.

where does scripture say "it's meant for adults"?

the ana-baptists invented that one, adult only baptism, and even then not for justification but as an ordinance or a public expression of the "faith alone" that saved them so they teach!

 

[Free]

where does scripture say "it's meant for adults"?

the ana-baptists invented that one, adult only baptism, and even then not for justification but as an ordinance or a public expression of the "faith alone" that saved them so they teach!

It isn't "adult only baptism," but believer's baptism. Believers are those old enough to truly understand their need of Christ--the nature of their sin, how it separates them from God, and that Jesus died and rose again so that those who put their faith in him will be forgiven and reconciled to God.

The only clear, explicit teaching and examples we have in the Bible are those of believers being baptized based on repentance and belief in Christ. That necessarily excludes infants. It is reading into the text to say that when a household was baptized, that it included infants.

Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. (ESV)

Act 16:34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. (ESV)

Act 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. (ESV)

Clearly, these instances of "all his household" and "entire household" cannot refer to infants, since infants have no comprehension of such things.

 

[donadams]

So donadams ....
You gonna show up or what?

This thread is for you....
I'd like your input.

Infant Baptism!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

 

[donadams]

It isn't "adult only baptism," but believer's baptism. Believers are those old enough to truly understand their need of Christ--the nature of their sin, how it separates them from God, and that Jesus died and rose again so that those who put their faith in him will be forgiven and reconciled to God.

The only clear, explicit teaching and examples we have in the Bible are those of believers being baptized based on repentance and belief in Christ. That necessarily excludes infants. It is reading into the text to say that when a household was baptized, that it included infants.

Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. (ESV)

Act 16:34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. (ESV)

Act 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. (ESV)

Clearly, these instances of "all his household" and "entire household" cannot refer to infants, since infants have no comprehension of such things.

"entire household" does not say except infants and they are included in acts 2:39-39
promise to you and your children!

 

[Free]

"entire household" does not say except infants and they are included in acts 2:39-39
promise to you and your children!

"Children" means just that--it covers a variety of ages from 0-80 (or whatever)--but it doesn't follow that it includes the idea that infants can be saved. Again, that is reading into the text. Every explicit mention of salvation is based on repentance and belief in Christ, which requires the ability to comprehend certain biblical teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

change what practice?

Baptism Don....
Make it for adult believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

baptism for salvation is not right! baptism is the grace of Justification and all sin is washed away! acts 22:16

See Don....the teaching of the CC is VERY confusing indeed.
If baptism justifies,,,then we're saved !

And WHAT SIN is washed away?
Even the CCC teaches that we are NOT responsible for Adam's sin.
see 404, 405

III. ORIGINAL SIN ⇡
The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity ⇡

404
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" — a state and not an act.



405
Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin — an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

justification is part of the whole process of salvation

redemption
justification
sanctification
purification
glorification
all amount to salvation

 

[GodsGrace]

where does scripture say "it's meant for adults"?

the ana-baptists invented that one, adult only baptism, and even then not for justification but as an ordinance or a public expression of the "faith alone" that saved them so they teach!

I'm not here to argue infant baptism Don.
I know all about it.

I'm here to discuss with you what I stated in my OP.
Please read it and reply to the questions.

I'm not going to debate with you...I just want to hear your understanding of
infant baptism.

I'm realizing that not all born-again Catholics understand it in the same way.

 

[GodsGrace]

Infant Baptism!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

Are you saying infant baptism is not required?

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

I happen to know this and know why.

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

Please don't discuss Augustine with me.
Even the monk I used to study with before Covid knew better.
He had a nice little group.....no more.

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

Please post your own words.
Thanks!

 

[donadams]

"Children" means just that--it covers a variety of ages from 0-80 (or whatever)--but it doesn't follow that it includes the idea that infants can be saved. Again, that is reading into the text. Every explicit mention of salvation is based on repentance and belief in Christ, which requires the ability to comprehend certain biblical teachings.

what happens to an infant that dies before the age of reason and with out baptism?

 

[donadams]

Baptism Don....
Make it for adult believers.

always been for all!

the new covenant is for everyone!

Lk 2:10-11 all people
Lk 2:30-31 all people
Jn 3:16 whole world
Jn 1:29 whole world

thks

 

[donadams]

See Don....the teaching of the CC is VERY confusing indeed.
If baptism justifies,,,then we're saved !

And WHAT SIN is washed away?
Even the CCC teaches that we are NOT responsible for Adam's sin.
see 404, 405

III. ORIGINAL SIN ⇡
The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity ⇡

404
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" — a state and not an act.



405
Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin — an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

no justification is not salvation but one part in the process of salvation!

Redemption, Justification, sanctification, purification, glorification!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:4 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Matt 24:14 endures to the end.

Purification: no unclean thing enter the heavenly realms of glory!

Glorification:

Suffering with Christ is required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

thks

 

[donadams]

I'm not here to argue infant baptism Don.
I know all about it.

I'm here to discuss with you what I stated in my OP.
Please read it and reply to the questions.

I'm not going to debate with you...I just want to hear your understanding of
infant baptism.

I'm realizing that not all born-again Catholics understand it in the same way.

born again catholics?

all catholics are born again!

baptism is being born again!

thks

 

[donadams]

I'm not here to argue infant baptism Don.
I know all about it.

I'm here to discuss with you what I stated in my OP.
Please read it and reply to the questions.

I'm not going to debate with you...I just want to hear your understanding of
infant baptism.

I'm realizing that not all born-again Catholics understand it in the same way.

the church has always baptized infants!

 

[donadams]

Are you saying infant baptism is not required?

I happen to know this and know why.

Please don't discuss Augustine with me.
Even the monk I used to study with before Covid knew better.
He had a nice little group.....no more.

Please post your own words.
Thanks!

infants are created in the old creation with original sin or the effects of the fall of our first parents!

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon allmen, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

infants without baptism are devoid of grace, and under the curse of the first creation!

infants with baptism are filled with grace, and blessings under the new creation in Christ!

thks

 

[donadams]

Are you saying infant baptism is not required?

I happen to know this and know why.

Please don't discuss Augustine with me.
Even the monk I used to study with before Covid knew better.
He had a nice little group.....no more.

Please post your own words.
Thanks!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

since the propagation of the Gospel baptism is the required initiation into the new covenant church united to God and His saints by the grace of baptism!

thks

 

[Free]

what happens to an infant that dies before the age of reason and with out baptism?

Whatever happens, baptism has nothing to do with it.

 

[donadams]

Whatever happens, baptism has nothing to do with it.

Whatever happens, baptism has nothing to do with it.

infants without baptism are devoid of grace, and under the curse of the first creation!

infants with baptism are filled with grace, and blessings under the new creation in Christ!

baptism removes original sin and all sin and is the grace of justification! acts 22:16

dogma

174. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
175. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
177. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal.
178. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an
indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot
be repeated.
179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation.

 

[Free]

infants without baptism are devoid of grace, and under the curse of the first creation!

infants with baptism are filled with grace, and blessings under the new creation in Christ!

baptism removes original sin and all sin and is the grace of justification! acts 22:16

dogma

174. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
175. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
177. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal.
178. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an
indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot
be repeated.
179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation.

Baptism has never justified anyone. Points 176, provided justification is properly understood, and 177 are absolutely unbiblical.

Justification, with regards to salvation, means to be declared righteous. It is the initial point of salvation. The NT unequivocally teaches that justification is by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone; not through baptism, not through works.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
...
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

Baptism is never said to justify anyone.