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INFANT BAPTISM CREATES PROBLEMS IN THE CC

Baptism has never justified anyone. Points 176, provided justification is properly understood, and 177 are absolutely unbiblical.

Justification, with regards to salvation, means to be declared righteous. It is the initial point of salvation. The NT unequivocally teaches that justification is by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone; not through baptism, not through works.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved
...
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

Baptism is never said to justify anyone.
baptism is one the christian doctrines that we must believe

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Rev 1:5 washed in His blood
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29
 
baptism is one the christian doctrines that we must believe

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Rev 1:5 washed in His blood
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5
None of this has to do with justification. And, Titus 3:5 has nothing to do with baptismal regeneration; it clearly teaches regeneration by the Holy Spirit:

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Baptism is important and we do it because Christ commanded it, but it saves no one, regenerates no one, justifies no one.

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29
You have taken both of those verses out of context, quite badly, while ignoring the biblical definition of justification that I gave. That means you've also taken what I said out of context and so are not speaking to "faith alone" as I have given it.
 
more info
TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).




Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

Baptism is Necessary for salvation
Irenaeus (120?-200), “’And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” (Fragment, 34, A.D. 190).

Origen (185-254), “The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” (Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9)

Tertullian (155-220), “When, however, the prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'” (On Baptism, 12:1, A.D. 203).
Ambrose (340?-397), “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism . . . “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (On Abraham 2:11:79-84).WATER AND SPIRIT, NOT SPIRIT ONLY, NOT WATER ONLY.1 JOHN 5:8 shows the witnesses on earth SPIRIT, WATER AND BLOOD, you have none of them.
 
part one


We must hear & obey both Christ and His apostolic church!


Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, (apostles) who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, (apostles) and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!







Church fathers

Sacred tradition commanded by Christ, go teach all men! Matt 28:19

Testimony of the early church in the successors of the apostles! Verified by acts 2:42

Acts 1:8 witnesses of Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit!

We must hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17

Baptism!

Didache (teaching of the apostles)
Acts 2:42

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. 70ad

“My Witnesses” (Acts 1:8)

“Fathers on baptism”

“It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

“Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

“Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified by. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent


“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR
 
always been for all!

the new covenant is for everyone!

Lk 2:10-11 all people
Lk 2:30-31 all people
Jn 3:16 whole world
Jn 1:29 whole world

thks
Don....you asked WHAT the CC wants to change.
I replied:
Baptism for only adult believers.

Until now baptism in the CC has been for infants.
(of course also for those that convert or were never baptized as infants and have become believers).
 
born again catholics?

all catholics are born again!

baptism is being born again!

thks
OK
I'm not responding to any of your other posts to me because they don't concentrate on what I needed to know from you.

But the above explains all.
So if all infants are bapized....
then all persons in the CC are born again.

And if they are born again, do we agree that they are heaven-bound?

So, basically, you're saying the CC is universalist in theology.

And dare I say....the CC is quickly becoming like the Protestant churches in the sense that there are varying doctrines being taught ON THE SAME SUBJECT. (in the CC).
 
donadams

You neglected to reply to my questions,,,which is the only reason I'm writing to you:
IN YOUR OPINION...and I DO say opinion because I'm getting varying replies and I don't mean from the laity:

Here they are again...please reply to only these 3 questions...a direct reply would be appreciated:

IS EVERY BAPTIZED PERSON A MEMEBER OF THE CHURCH?
A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS?
A MEMEBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST?

Also, do YOU believe there's a difference between the Church and the Body of Christ?
 
Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

since the propagation of the Gospel baptism is the required initiation into the new covenant church united to God and His saints by the grace of baptism!

thks
I'd say that BELIEF is what's necessary to enter into the New Covenant.
THEN
We obey what Jesus taught.

Let me ask you this then:
If a baby dies and was not baptized...what happens to him?

OR

An adult come to believe but is in an accident and dies....what happens to him?
 
OK
I'm not responding to any of your other posts to me because they don't concentrate on what I needed to know from you.

But the above explains all.
So if all infants are bapized....
then all persons in the CC are born again.

And if they are born again, do we agree that they are heaven-bound?

So, basically, you're saying the CC is universalist in theology.

And dare I say....the CC is quickly becoming like the Protestant churches in the sense that there are varying doctrines being taught ON THE SAME SUBJECT. (in the CC).
if an infant dies after baptism before the age of reason they are saved

if they survive to adulthood then they must abide in Christ Jn 15:4 and bear fruit
and repent of any sin and do penance (prayer, alms, fasting, self-denial etc.)
enduring to the end in the grace of Christ! mk 13:13 matt 24:13

thks
 
I'd say that BELIEF is what's necessary to enter into the New Covenant.
THEN
We obey what Jesus taught.

Let me ask you this then:
If a baby dies and was not baptized...what happens to him?

OR

An adult come to believe but is in an accident and dies....what happens to him?
we do know, Christ does not say, hence limbo, its our understanding of their state that is in limbo, they are committed to the mercy of God but we cannot presume to say what is their state.

they are not in the kingdom of heaven cos Jesus said: Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

the church administers the sacrament baptism for justification

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

thks
 
if an infant dies after baptism before the age of reason they are saved

if they survive to adulthood then they must abide in Christ Jn 15:4 and bear fruit
and repent of any sin and do penance (prayer, alms, fasting, self-denial etc.)
enduring to the end in the grace of Christ! mk 13:13 matt 24:13

thks
OK
Good.
Let me check if you replied about being a member of the church.
 
we do know, Christ does not say, hence limbo, its our understanding of their state that is in limbo, they are committed to the mercy of God but we cannot presume to say what is their state.

they are not in the kingdom of heaven cos Jesus said: Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

the church administers the sacrament baptism for justification

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

thks
Not going to debate this.
The church no longer teaches limbo....
and it really never did.
It was made up by someone and the church never corrected the concept.

You're following the CCC on the rest and I don't agree but accept your understanding of the CCC.
However, the CCC does NOT state that they are not in heaven...OK on the rest.

Just answer this one last question:
Are all the baptized babies part of the church when they are adult?
Sorry...you already answered this and I agreed.....

So....
Do you understand the church to be the same as the Body of Christ?

Thanks Don.
 
Not going to debate this.
The church no longer teaches limbo....
and it really never did.
It was made up by someone and the church never corrected the concept.

You're following the CCC on the rest and I don't agree but accept your understanding of the CCC.
However, the CCC does NOT state that they are not in heaven...OK on the rest.

Just answer this one last question:
Are all the baptized babies part of the church when they are adult?
Sorry...you already answered this and I agreed.....

So....
Do you understand the church to be the same as the Body of Christ?

Thanks Don.
limbo is not a doctrine in my understanding but a lack of knowledge

there must be distinction between the church and the vatican 2 modernists which is not a work of the church including the ccc.

go with the penny catechism of baltimore or the catechism of the council of trent please!
 
limbo is not a doctrine in my understanding but a lack of knowledge

there must be distinction between the church and the vatican 2 modernists which is not a work of the church including the ccc.

go with the penny catechism of baltimore or the catechism of the council of trent please!
I know what you mean,,,but there have been some changes (and we're told doctrine cannot be changed! ha!)
I was raised on the Baltimore....but it's not used for catechism anymore.

Anyway,,,,this morning my friend went to speak to the monk I mention at times.
She asked him the 3 questions I asked you.
Here's his answer (I wasn't present but it sounds like what he'd say):
IN A MANNER OF SPEAKING...EVEN THOSE IN HELL ARE A PART OF THE CHURCH...NOT IN THE SAME WAY AS BELEIVERS.

See Don...the teachings of the church are always skirting around topics...it creates a lot of confusion...like I said in my OP.

Like, take your reply in post no. 56...it makes it seem as though that all that are baptized are saved and I doubt you mean that.

As to the CCC,,,yes, we're told to refer to that, and for some teachings it IS necessary to refer to it but basically I've been using the bible and the Deacon also uses the NT and it seems to be working out. The NT is concise and clear and tha's all that should be necessary.

If you want to reply to the above underlined...OK
Otherwise,,,it's OK too.

I wish the CC had stayed the way it was the first 300 years.
And this Pope made a nice mess of everything...to say the least.
 
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