Infant Baptism

[Solo]

Please answer the following questions:

1. How many infants were baptized in the New Testament? I have not found one yet. Where the Bible says that a family was baptized, doesn't indicate the age of the family members. No where does the Bible speak of baptism as an unconscious act. I find anyone being baptized without making a conscious decision to do so after believing that Jesus is Lord.

2. Where did infant baptism come from and why?

3. What does infant baptism do for the infant?

4. Can a person be baptized as an infant without a conscious decision to choose Jesus Christ as savior and be saved? If that is the case then why did not Paul spend more time baptizing infants, then he did teaching the gospel to those with the ability to choose Jesus?

5. Isn't infant baptism a farce? I was baptized as an infant and was on my way to hell, until I came to know Jesus Christ at 28 years old after which I was immersed in a real baptism.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=211554&highlight=#211554
That should answer questions 1, 2 & 4

3.If baptism is a grace from God, a work of God and not of man, then baptism does the same thing for an infant that it does for an adult- it is a seal of a New Covenant, and an act of obedience.

5. Any one who is baptized as an adult and falls away will perish in the same manner as child who is raised up in the fear and admonition of the Lord, then departs. Circumcision never saved a Jew, but it was their introduction, seal and sign into the covenants and promises of God. Just as circumcision was an identification with Avraham, so is baptism an identification with Christ (His burial).

Now I' like to ask why understanding is necessary for the grace to be efficacious. If it so, then grace is not grace, I think.

Those who have been baptized with/in Christ must every day renew their baptism (I die daily), whether they were baptized at 12 months or 84 years.

 

[Solo]

Infant baptism is not found in the New Testament. Some of the guesses that are made when families are baptized assume that infants are present, but the evidence is strong that only children who were old enough to hear the word of the Lord, received the Holy Spirit, and made a confession of faith were baptized.

There is no evidence that infant baptism was practiced in the early Church, and that infant baptism began after the 3rd century.

Who was baptized in Cornelius' household? Those that heard the word, received the Holy Spirit, magnified God, were baptized. Cornelius' kinsmen and friends were baptized after hearing the word, believing the word, and following Jesus in believer's baptism.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:44-48

Who was baptized in the Jailer's household? Those that heard the word of the Lord were saved, and were baptized. An action of believing the word of the Lord was immediately followed with baptism.


27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
Acts 16:27-34

Who was baptized in Crispus' household? Crispus believed on the Lord, along with all of his house; and many Corinthians heard, and believed as well. These all were baptized after believing the word of the Lord which they heard preached by Paul.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. Acts 18:8

The same experience is documented throughout the New Testament whereby people are told how to be saved, they hear the word of the Lord which they believe, and then they are baptized after receiving the Holy Spirit. Since an act of belief must follow the comprehension of the word of the Lord prior to baptism, it is obvious that infant baptism does not occur in the early church.

Unless you can be taught, can hear (know) the word of the Lord, believe the word of the Lord, receive the Holy Spirit, baptism does you no good.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

 

[Orthodoxy]

Solo,

In red would be the changes I would need make in my KJV to fit your theology that rejects baptism of infants:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them (except infants) which heard the word (since infants cant hear they are excluded). 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:44-48

Where does it say no infants were in Cornelius household? You are reading to much into the bible.

27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (except for your infant children they must wait for God's free gift of grace) 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway (except for infants).[/u] 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. Acts 16:27-34

All doesnt mean all anymore, eh? "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"

Here these people are told "believe" and you will save your whole house. Are you telling me if I believe my wife is saved if she is an unbeliever yet my infant children are not saved because I "believe"? "I believe" thus my great great grandparents are saved? My parents are saved because "I believe"? My brothers and sisters are saved because "I believe"? My cousins, aunts. uncles, etc. etc. etc are saved because "I believe"? All these are saved because I alone believe yet my infant girl is not saved?

Where is justice? Where is law, Where is mercy? Where is faith? Where is grace in your theology that would condemn my infant son?

Here again is another example of protestant manipulation of the word of God to fit their own understanding.

Who was baptized in Crispus' household? Crispus believed on the Lord, along with all of his house (except for infants); and many Corinthians heard, and believed as well. These all were baptized (except for infants) after believing the word of the Lord which they heard preached by Paul.

All his house except for the infants correct? All but infants you mean right?

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house (except for infants); and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. Acts 18:8

None of these people had infant children? Whole households full of different ages with no infants? Really. I think you are on a different planet.

The same experience is documented throughout the New Testament whereby people are told how to be saved, they hear the word of the Lord which they believe, and then they are baptized after receiving the Holy Spirit. Since an act of belief must follow the comprehension of the word of the Lord prior to baptism, it is obvious that infant baptism does not occur in the early church.

Do the words "he and all his", "all his house" mean anything to you?

Unless you can be taught, can hear (know) the word of the Lord, believe the word of the Lord, receive the Holy Spirit, baptism does you no good.

Grace + teaching = salvation. Really. You are now adding knowledge to the verse "we are saved by Grace". Interesting you exclude infants from the Kingdom of God, innocent infants. What sin have they commited that you condemn them for? What "work" has an infant done that condemns them?

The Holy Spirit can indwell a rock to make it speak. The Holy Spirit can indwell an donkey and make it speak. The Holy Spirit can indwell a dove. The Holy Spirit can indwell bread and wine. But the Holy Spirit cannot indwell an infant or a child? Pitiful protestant propaganda and misinformation.

If you say all infants are saved by the mercy of God alone then God has set up a double standard which adults are saved by "believe" alone and infants are saved by God's mercy alone without any "believe" required what so ever.

Seems you have condemned every infant to hell. Innocent victims of abortion are saved or not?

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations(except for infants), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (except for infants); 20 Teaching them (except for infants); to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

In the Holy Orthodox Church infants are taught the ways of the Lord through example, picture stories and song. Seems you have a narrow one demensional christianity that only allows one to "read" and "be teachable" to be saved by God's free gift of Grace. Note also Jesus Christ sends MEN to preach the Kingdom of God not a "good book". :o

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

But what does Jesus know?

Mark 10:14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Jesus loves infants and children.

Mark 10:14, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

So much so that infants and children enter the Kingdom just because they are innocent little children and infants.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

You are rich in knowledge but are poor in law, judgment, mercy, and faith. Another burden placed on the hearts of men by the pharisees of today.

It appears Jesus Christ blows your "believe" and be "teachable" theology right out the christian window.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[Solo]

Too bad you have to add or subtract from the word of God to make your theology fit your desired outcomes. Salvation is based on an action of repentance, belief, and following Jesus Christ, not on a hokey pokey dampen the head of an unaccountable infant that has no understanding, awareness, ability to choose. There are millions on their way to eternal damnation that have been baptized as infants because they never made the step of faith in Jesus Christ that is required for salvation. If you have believed in Jesus Christ since your infant baptism and haven't been baptized then you have not followed in the footsteps of the Lord and his apostles.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

To bad you have to add or subtract from the word of God to make your theology fit your desired outcomes. Salvation is based on an action of repentence, belief, and following Jesus Christ, not on a hokey pokey dampen the head of an unaccountable infant that has no understanding, awareness, ability to choose. There are millions on their way to eternal damnation that have been baptized as infants because they never made the step of faith in Jesus Christ that is required for salvation. If you have believed in Jesus Christ since your infant baptism and haven't been baptized then you have not followed in the footsteps of the Lord and his apostles.

I was not a christian until I converted to the Holy Orthodox faith after 33 years of protestant propaganda and lies. I know all the lines.

Now tell me where in the Bible did Jesus Christ deny Children and infants the Kingdom of God?

Answer the questions I can wait.

Orthodoxy

 

[Solo]

To bad you have to add or subtract from the word of God to make your theology fit your desired outcomes. Salvation is based on an action of repentence, belief, and following Jesus Christ, not on a hokey pokey dampen the head of an unaccountable infant that has no understanding, awareness, ability to choose. There are millions on their way to eternal damnation that have been baptized as infants because they never made the step of faith in Jesus Christ that is required for salvation. If you have believed in Jesus Christ since your infant baptism and haven't been baptized then you have not followed in the footsteps of the Lord and his apostles.

I was not a christian until I converted to the Holy Orthodox faith after 33 years of protestant propaganda and lies. I know all the lines.

Now tell me where in the Bible did Jesus Christ deny Children and infants the Kingdom of God?

Answer the questions I can wait.

Orthodoxy

Too bad you couldn't believe in Jesus 33 years earlier before you escaped into an unorthodox group of unscriptural beliefs.

The only lies that you have swallowed are the ones that require you to look headon into the face of truth and run towards another gospel. The Bible does not speak of salvation without a person making a decision to belief on Jesus Christ after hearing the word of the Lord. The Holy Orthodox faith does not save you my friend, only your relationship with Jesus Christ will save you. The only lies and propaganda that I see are the ones that you and others like you spew because of your misunderstanding of the scriptures. When you see the millions of orthodox unbelievers burning in hell because they thought that they were going to heaven from an infant baptism, it will be too late to know the lies that you believed.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Too bad you couldn't believe in Jesus 33 years earlier before you escaped into an unorthodox group of unscriptural beliefs.

So you will not answer the biblical question? I was lied to by the protestant christian faith. I believed as you. The words you type I used. All the rhetoric against the Roman Church to the letter? I listened and read the best protestant teachers. I got the tapes to prove it. That Jesus to me was a misrepresentation, an imposter, a counterfiet Jesus Christ. Do you understand? Do you know what a counterfiet is? It looks like the real thing but is not, a very close second that "even the elect" can believe, the imposter. If I am not Orthodox Christian in my faith then I am an agnostic geologist. The Jesus of the Protestant faith is a fraud. Now do you get it?

History backs me up. The 2000 year old Church backs me up. The confession of billions throughout the history of the world backs me up. What you think means squat in the expanse of time if it is not "one" with this historical Church.

The only lies that you have swallowed are the ones that require you to look headon into the face of truth and run towards another gospel. The Bible does not speak of salvation without a person making a decision to belief on Jesus Christ after hearing the word of the Lord.

"His Life saves" Look it up in Romans. Life in Christ saves. Living the Life of Jesus Christ "saves". Doing what Jesus did "saves". Living like Jesus lived "saves". Jesus saves His body because it is "doing" His will. He love the Body (the Church) and saves it. We know this from the Scripture. He loves the Church as a Husband loves his wife.

The Holy Orthodox faith does not save you my friend, only your relationship with Jesus Christ will save you.

One has a "relationship" with the member of the body, an intimate relationship which cannot be discribed. I think Orthodox Christian can verify this and I have never met the man. The relationship is both heavenly and earthy. One must be in community. This Holy community of believers, set apart as a"pecular nation" is the Holy Orthodox Church. Fact.

The only lies and propaganda that I see are the ones that you and others like you spew because of your misunderstanding of the scriptures. When you see the millions of orthodox unbelievers burning in hell because they thought that they were going to heaven from an infant baptism, it will be too late to know the lies that you believed.

Well that explains your position. Orthodox Christian infants burn in hell along with their parents. I understand.

I will let the readers believe what they will about the Orthodox people and the Orthodox faith.

One once said "facts are the enemy of truth" and so it is.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you for your response, which is essentially that households baptized only included those that understood and agreed. I find it very difficult to imagine Jews who had cut the foreskin of thier babies denying baptism to their infants, and I do not see the phrase rendered 'and baptized within the (oikos) those who believed (pistevo).
But let's leave that for the moment.

I have a point and a question that remained unanswered, Solo.

Point:
3.If baptism is a grace from God, a work of God and not of man, then baptism does the same thing for an infant that it does for an adult- it is a seal of a New Covenant, and an act of obedience.

Question:
Now I' like to ask why understanding is necessary for the grace to be efficacious.

Opinion:
If it so, then grace is not grace, I think.

So why is belief, understanding, and agreement necessary to begin a life in God? And, if baptism does not effect salvation, according to Protestant theology, why does it matter when in time sequence it happens?

 

[thessalonian]

Baptism confers the Holy Spirit. Some will of course deny this but Acts 2:38 makes it clear. Now it is in fact possible for babies to recieve the Holy Spirit. We have proof of that fact in Luke 1 when the angel tells Zechariah of John the BAPTIST (Is this a coincidence? No, Godincidence) that her child will "be filled with the Holy Spirit, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB". We see evidence of this later when Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and it is apparent John gets his shot of the HS at that moment as well when he leaps in her womb.

So, babies can recieve the Holy Spirit, regardless of their ability to comprehend and acknowledge God. Why would we deny it to them? Do you think this early intervention with the HS helped John with his coming to know God? Sounds like God's "Head Start" program to me.

 

[Solo]

The Holy Spirit comes to the believer prior to baptism after one believes in the word. No amount talk against what the Bible teaches will change the truth. Many that have been baptized as infants in the RCC, Orthodox, and denominational institutions are lost and on their way to hell because they have never believed the word. Those that have come to believe in the word later in life and have been truly baptized will see an eternity with God.


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:44-48

No matter how much one adds or subtracts to the word of God will be added or subtracted to him/her because God is not mocked and that which a man sows, that shall he also reap, whether lies or truths, whether plagues or blessings, whether life or death.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Acts 2:38,

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Some had the baptism of John "water" before they recieved the Holy Spirit. Some recieved the Holy Spirit then were not denied water baptism.

It would appear we have a contradition. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is gifted to people both before and after baptism as God pleases?

There is no question one needs baptism for enterance into God's Church which Jesus Christ saves just as a jew needed circumcision to call himself a jew. We also know there is "one baptism" thus "the one baptism" must still be a reality today. The question then becomes "who" baptises in the "one manner" pleasing to God.

I believe the one baptism is only and exclusively found in the "one body" of Jesus Christ called "the Church".

If you want to witness this "one baptism" visit an Orthodox Church.

Orthodoxy

 

[Free]

Infant baptism is not found in the New Testament.

That doesn't make it wrong.

Can you show me where "baby dedications" are found in the NT?

 

[Orthodoxy]

Thank you for your response, which is essentially that households baptized only included those that understood and agreed. I find it very difficult to imagine Jews who had cut the foreskin of thier babies denying baptism to their infants, and I do not see the phrase rendered 'and baptized within the (oikos) those who believed (pistevo).

But let's leave that for the moment.

Yes, why in God’s ineffable mercy and unfathomable love would He gladly bestow (or force upon as protestants would say) the blessing of the ot covenant the law upon infants yet deny and refuse them initiation into His everlasting covenant of Grace in the NT without knowledge?

I have been scolded for not giving infants "a choice" in saying "Yes" to Jesus Christ yet the same people would agree God's OT convenant was valid "forced" on the infants of the Jews.

If that is not double mindedness I dont know what defines double mindedness.

A sign of the times? Very much so, yes.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

Thank you for your response, which is essentially that households baptized only included those that understood and agreed. I find it very difficult to imagine Jews who had cut the foreskin of thier babies denying baptism to their infants, and I do not see the phrase rendered 'and baptized within the (oikos) those who believed (pistevo).

But let's leave that for the moment.

Yes, why in God’s ineffable mercy and unfathomable love would He gladly bestow (or force upon as protestants would say) the blessing of the ot covenant the law upon infants yet deny and refuse them initiation into His everlasting covenant of Grace in the NT without knowledge?

I have been scolded for not giving infants "a choice" in saying "Yes" to Jesus Christ yet the same people would agree God's OT convenant was valid "forced" on the infants of the Jews.

If that is not double mindedness I dont know what defines double mindedness.

A sign of the times? Very much so, yes.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Solo]

Acts 2:38,

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Some had the baptism of John "water" before they recieved the Holy Spirit. Some recieved the Holy Spirit then were not denied water baptism.

It would appear we have a contradition. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is gifted to people both before and after baptism as God pleases?

There is no question one needs baptism for enterance into God's Church which Jesus Christ saves just as a jew needed circumcision to call himself a jew. We also know there is "one baptism" thus "the one baptism" must still be a reality today. The question then becomes "who" baptises in the "one manner" pleasing to God.

I believe the one baptism is only and exclusively found in the "one body" of Jesus Christ called "the Church".

If you want to witness this "one baptism" visit an Orthodox Church.

Orthodoxy

I have already witnessed both, the baptism of infants that is not biblical, and the baptism of the believers which is biblical.

I was baptized as an infant and was bound for hell, I later became baptized as a believer in Jesus Christ after hearing the word as is recorded in the scriptures, and am now saved heading for eternal life as a joint heir with Jesus Christ.

Dedicating a baby to God and bringing him/her up in the admonition of the Lord is great, but trying to give an infant salvation through hokey pokey traditions of men is ludicrous.

 

[Solo]

Infant baptism is not found in the New Testament.

That doesn't make it wrong.

Can you show me where "baby dedications" are found in the NT?

If you have been baptized as an infant without any knowledge of the word of God, and since have come to be saved by believing the word, then I would suggest getting baptized for real. If the church does not baptize adults when they have been baptized as infants, then I suggest that a change of churches is in order.

Baby dedications do not save babies. Baby baptisms do not save babies. Only those that do not know the Word of God would think so.

God's character is such that if an infant were to die, he/she would be taken into God's presence as many are saved by the blood sacrificed by the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

 

[Solo]

Circumcising Jewish babies did not save babies either. It only designated that they were of the covenant that required them to keep the law. Jesus did not need saved but he was circumcised. Why? Because he was Jewish under the Law.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Seems to me that Jesus was baptized also.

The argument for dedications is that they don't save. Are you suggesting, Solo, that baby baptisms- or adult ones-do?