Infant Baptism

[Orthodoxy]

Circumcising Jewish babies did not save babies either. It only designated that they were of the covenant that required them to keep the law. Jesus did not need saved but he was circumcised. Why? Because he was Jewish under the Law.

Right baptism like I said is the initiation into "the Church" just as circumcision was initiation into the Jewish faith. Did this say they would live as a jew forever without falling away? No, just that they are jews.

There is rarely a group in the USA that doesnt require a "special" initiation into the "fold". To be an "Elk" in the "Elks Club of America" one must enter the "brotherhood" by their "ritual" or you are not an "Elk". You can act like an "Elk". You can say you are an "Elk". You can make silly demands and have tantrums because they "Elks" do not recognise you as "one of them". But this will not make you an "Elk". One is required to enter the "Elks fold" in the manner prescribed by the "Elks".

Baptism is initiation into the "Family of God" called "The Church". Coming into this "fold" by another door is strictly verbotten.

Jesus Christ was very exclusive when He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life." So to is the Church, His body, exclusive in it's claim to be the Body of Jesus Christ. The Church has prescribed "Baptism" as the "ritual" in which one can say " I am a Christian".

It would behoove all to find the "One Church" that contains the "One Baptism".

Orthodoxy

 

[Solo]

Seems to me that Jesus was baptized also.

The argument for dedications is that they don't save. Are you suggesting, Solo, that baby baptisms- or adult ones-do?

Infant/Baby baptisms do not save. Adult baptisms do not save.

Only believing in Jesus work on the cross and his resurrection after hearing the Word of God brings one to the point of being born from above, a new creature. Being baptized immersed in water is the portion of a believers life that is that of following Jesus in obedience. The baptism that saves is spiritual with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of water is symbolic of the spiritual act that has taken place, and the first step of obedience to the Lord.

 

[AVBunyan]

I can barely type but I can at least re-post and ealier post from way back:

If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spend on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

1. It is essential to salvation – don’t want to argue this – it is not…period! Seen all the verses, have had then quoted to me out of context for so long I just want to scream!

2. It is not essential to ones salvation but we are to do it because:

a. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection – sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase. You say, “It is an outward sign of an inward reality.†Really? Where did you get that? Chapter and verse? Sounds good but you can’t make a doctrine out of a catchy phrase.
b. It is the first step of obedience - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
c. It proves or demonstrates one’s salvation - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
d. Many saints in the Bible baptized so we should – sounds good but many saints did things in the Bible that we don’t do anymore. We don’t sacrifice lambs, we don’t raise people from the dead, we don’t take vows, we don’t abstain from pork, etc. Yes, things change and I’m glad they do!!!
e. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19,20 – yes he did but also told you to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded and one of the things he commanded was to adhere to what the Pharisees taught and they taught the law - Matt. 23:3 – “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe.†They taught the law and I know you believe you are not to adhere to the Old Testament law (well some of you do). (Similar to “d.)

First summary – all that we have been taught and practice concerning baptism has been based upon tradition and making doctrines out of poor applications. Because of these errors we have people going to hell on Acts 2:38, etc. and others trying to obey the “first step of obedience†and if they don’t they are made to fill like second class citizens by Baptist Churches.

What I am going to present I already know most of you will not believe for a couple of reasons:

1. You want to insist on going to hell with your water baptism and nothing is going to change that!

2. You just cannot give up your tradition that has been passed down for centuries. You have made a doctrine out of a tradition.

Now this is what I believe baptism was for in the Bible. I will only discuss the word baptism as it relates to water for just because you see the word baptize it doesn’t mean it is associated with water all the time. Now the Church of Christ can’t see that for all they see is water, water and more water every time the word shows up in any form. For example - look at I Cor. 10:2 and Col. 2:12 and try to find water baptism there.

The first time water baptism shows up is with John the Baptist. Now why did John baptize? Let’s let him tell us.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Look at “therefore†– why is the “therefore†there? The issue was manifesting Christ to Israel. Christ was being manifesting to Israel for the first time. John the Baptist said (paraphrasing), “Here is your Messiah! Do you believe this†Ok, then get baptized.“ Why get baptized? To show that you believe Christ was Israel’s long awaited for Messiah. And along with that they were to show their repentance in regards to their rejection of God the Father in the Old Testament. Manifestation and repentance - It is that simple. And yet this simple doctrine meant for God’s dealing with Israel has turned into a monster.

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts? Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts. The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel’s blessings at that time. Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone’s attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

The issue of showing Christ being the Messiah is a non issue today for we have advanced revelation on the matter due to the New Testament being finally written down – plus God is not dealing with Israel right now (I know, a broken record) – So………..baptism is a non issue today. There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can’t start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age! You see how simple the scriptures are? You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk†today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity. We are not Rome – we don’t need all of those outward ceremonies.

Conclusion – If you want to baptize then fine – I don’t panic over people making baptism a picture of salvation, etc. You make it essential to salvation and we will go to war over that. But to use it as a picture then I’m not going to make an issue out of it – hat is between your church and God – I believe in local self-governing churches.

Wouldn’t it be so much easier to stick with Ephesians 4? Look at what a stumbling block this doctrine has caused. Look at how much money has been spent on baptismal fountains!!! Could you imagine a Baptist church not being able to count their “baptisms†to be able to send them to the Sword of the Lord! Just kidding. I am a Baptist so I can pick on my own

God bless

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Seems to me that Jesus was baptized also.

The argument for dedications is that they don't save. Are you suggesting, Solo, that baby baptisms- or adult ones-do?

Infant/Baby baptisms do not save. Adult baptisms do not save.

Only believing in Jesus work on the cross and his resurrection after hearing the Word of God brings one to the point of being born from above, a new creature. Being baptized immersed in water is the portion of a believers life that is that of following Jesus in obedience. The baptism that saves is spiritual with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of water is symbolic of the spiritual act that has taken place, and the first step of obedience to the Lord.

If baptims do not save, then what difference does it make when they are performed, on whom, or by whom?

 

[Solo]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":b96ed]Seems to me that Jesus was baptized also.

The argument for dedications is that they don't save. Are you suggesting, Solo, that baby baptisms- or adult ones-do?

Infant/Baby baptisms do not save. Adult baptisms do not save.

Only believing in Jesus work on the cross and his resurrection after hearing the Word of God brings one to the point of being born from above, a new creature. Being baptized immersed in water is the portion of a believers life that is that of following Jesus in obedience. The baptism that saves is spiritual with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of water is symbolic of the spiritual act that has taken place, and the first step of obedience to the Lord.

If baptims do not save, then what difference does it make when they are performed, on whom, or by whom?[/quote:b96ed]
Baptism is a step of faith in obedience to the Lord. Salvation comes prior to baptism as the Bible shows in the case of Cornelius the Gentile and his household. Note that after the Word was preached to him and his household, the Holy Spirit came to them after they believed which sealed them unto the day of redemption prior to their being baptized.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:34-48

If baptisms saved people then Paul would have performed baptisms instead of preaching the truth of the Word of God.

Those that believe that baptisms save infants misunderstand the scriptures, and are relying on a manmade tradition instead of the scriptures. Salvation comes by the hearing of the Word of God upon which one comes to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; that he died for the sins of the world, and that he was resurrected from the dead. When infants come to the age where it is necessary to believe, then they will be accountable for their choice. As where one man Adam sin entered into the world, through Jesus many will be saved.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":1e3b8]Seems to me that Jesus was baptized also.

The argument for dedications is that they don't save. Are you suggesting, Solo, that baby baptisms- or adult ones-do?

Infant/Baby baptisms do not save. Adult baptisms do not save.

Only believing in Jesus work on the cross and his resurrection after hearing the Word of God brings one to the point of being born from above, a new creature. Being baptized immersed in water is the portion of a believers life that is that of following Jesus in obedience. The baptism that saves is spiritual with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of water is symbolic of the spiritual act that has taken place, and the first step of obedience to the Lord.

If baptims do not save, then what difference does it make when they are performed, on whom, or by whom?

Baptism is a step of faith in obedience to the Lord. Salvation comes prior to baptism as the Bible shows in the case of Cornelius the Gentile and his household. [/quote:1e3b8]
Incorrect. Baptism is the response of the believing adult, but the oikos of Cornelius included children-we've pointed this out before, and you ignored our arguments, and now use your unproved 'only the believing adults' view of these oikos passages as proof of a baptismal doctrine. You have not proved baptism for adults only, so this paragraph's argument is circular.

Note that after the Word was preached to him and his household, the Holy Spirit came to them after they believed which sealed them unto the day of redemption prior to their being baptized.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:34-48

If baptisms saved people then Paul would have performed baptisms instead of preaching the truth of the Word of God.

Those that believe that baptisms save infants misunderstand the scriptures, and are relying on a manmade tradition instead of the scriptures. Salvation comes by the hearing of the Word of God upon which one comes to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; that he died for the sins of the world, and that he was resurrected from the dead. When infants come to the age where it is necessary to believe, then they will be accountable for their choice. As where one man Adam sin entered into the world, through Jesus many will be saved.

Congratulations- you've successfully argued against a claim we do not make. It is actually you that seems to believe that understanding is salvific- which is actually crypto-gnostic.

It is the faith of Christ that saves. Baptism is obedience. The "believer's baptism" is no more salvific than the baptism of an infant. If you say it is, you confess that it is a man's faith or understanding that saves him, but scriptures say otherwise.

 

[Free]

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts? Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts. The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel’s blessings at that time.

Incorrect. They baptized because Jesus told them to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone’s attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

? Care to back that up with Scripture?

So………..baptism is a non issue today. There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Prove with Scripture that Eph. 4 "has nothing to do with water".

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can’t start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age! You see how simple the scriptures are? You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk†today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity. We are not Rome – we don’t need all of those outward ceremonies.

Prove it with Scripture. Prove that baptism was meant only for Israel. You are calling "junk" what Christ told his followers to do. So far it has been nothing but your opinion.

 

[Solo]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":2e5cf]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":2e5cf]Seems to me that Jesus was baptized also.

The argument for dedications is that they don't save. Are you suggesting, Solo, that baby baptisms- or adult ones-do?

Infant/Baby baptisms do not save. Adult baptisms do not save.

Only believing in Jesus work on the cross and his resurrection after hearing the Word of God brings one to the point of being born from above, a new creature. Being baptized immersed in water is the portion of a believers life that is that of following Jesus in obedience. The baptism that saves is spiritual with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of water is symbolic of the spiritual act that has taken place, and the first step of obedience to the Lord.

If baptims do not save, then what difference does it make when they are performed, on whom, or by whom?

Baptism is a step of faith in obedience to the Lord. Salvation comes prior to baptism as the Bible shows in the case of Cornelius the Gentile and his household. [/quote:2e5cf]
Incorrect. Baptism is the response of the believing adult, but the oikos of Cornelius included children-we've pointed this out before, and you ignored our arguments, and now use your unproved 'only the believing adults' view of these oikos passages as proof of a baptismal doctrine. You have not proved baptism for adults only, so this paragraph's argument is circular.

Note that after the Word was preached to him and his household, the Holy Spirit came to them after they believed which sealed them unto the day of redemption prior to their being baptized.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:34-48

If baptisms saved people then Paul would have performed baptisms instead of preaching the truth of the Word of God.

Those that believe that baptisms save infants misunderstand the scriptures, and are relying on a manmade tradition instead of the scriptures. Salvation comes by the hearing of the Word of God upon which one comes to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; that he died for the sins of the world, and that he was resurrected from the dead. When infants come to the age where it is necessary to believe, then they will be accountable for their choice. As where one man Adam sin entered into the world, through Jesus many will be saved.

Congratulations- you've successfully argued against a claim we do not make. It is actually you that seems to believe that understanding is salvific- which is actually crypto-gnostic.

It is the faith of Christ that saves. Baptism is obedience. The "believer's baptism" is no more salvific than the baptism of an infant. If you say it is, you confess that it is a man's faith or understanding that saves him, but scriptures say otherwise.[/quote:2e5cf]
It seems that you might have misunderstood my post. I am saying that baptizing infants for salvation is useless, for this practice does not save infants.

Secondly, a believer is saved prior to being baptized. Baptism is an act of obedience after the salvation experience. When the Holy Spirit falls on anyone as indicated in the scripture that I posted, salvation has occurred already, and then the baptism is performed.

In order to become saved a person must hear the word of God, and believe on that word whereby the Holy Spirit then indwells the believer and seals him until the day of redemption. The sacrifice that Jesus paid was made once for all time.

Simple.

 

[thessalonian]

This seems to have been missed. Can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit?

Baptism confers the Holy Spirit. Some will of course deny this but Acts 2:38 makes it clear. Now it is in fact possible for babies to recieve the Holy Spirit. We have proof of that fact in Luke 1 when the angel tells Zechariah of John the BAPTIST (Is this a coincidence? No, Godincidence) that her child will "be filled with the Holy Spirit, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB". We see evidence of this later when Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and it is apparent John gets his shot of the HS at that moment as well when he leaps in her womb.

So, babies can recieve the Holy Spirit, regardless of their ability to comprehend and acknowledge God. Why would we deny it to them? Do you think this early intervention with the HS helped John with his coming to know God? Sounds like God's "Head Start" program to me.

 

[Solo]

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38

This verse shows us that those that Repent, and are baptized shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Infants can not repent, therefore are not in need of baptism.

In the whole counsel of God we see Cornelius and his household saved by hearing the word, believing the word, the Holy Spirit falling on those that believed, and then they all were baptized.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:44-48

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother just as Jeremiah was. They were both ordained to be prophets of God the highest from the womb. Each of these were still in the age of the Law, the Old Covenant with the Law before Jesus was crucified and the veil to the Holy of Holies was tore into two pieces whereby all could enter into communion with God, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit was sent to man in the New Covenant of Grace after Jesus' ascension. That had not yet taken place. The sacrifice of bulls and goats no longer paid the price for entrance into heaven.

One must rightly divide the word of God to know the truth. Infants can not make a decision to believe or not to believe when the word is spoken, therefore it is impossible to save one by baptizing one until they can make a choice.

Not all babies received the Holy Spirit in the womb during the Old Testament; only those whom God designated as a prophet.

 

[thessalonian]

This verse shows us that those that Repent, and are baptized shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Infants can not repent, therefore are not in need of baptism.

Infants don't need to repent and they can recieve the Holy Spirit. Tell me, don't the scriptures say that those who don't work don't eat? Paul I believe says that somewhere. I'll have to look it up. So in saying this is Paul saying to let babies starve? Are there two ways of salvation, one for children and one for adults? Is the Holy Spirit unneccessary for salvation for children or do children automatically go to hell since they cannot repent?

In the whole counsel of God we see Cornelius and his household saved by hearing the word, believing the word, the Holy Spirit falling on those that believed, and then they all were baptized.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Acts 10:44-48

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother just as Jeremiah was. They were both ordained to be prophets of God the highest from the womb. Each of these were still in the age of the Law, the Old Covenant with the Law before Jesus was crucified and the veil to the Holy of Holies was tore into two pieces whereby all could enter into communion with God, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit was sent to man in the New Covenant of Grace after Jesus' ascension. That had not yet taken place. The sacrifice of bulls and goats no longer paid the price for entrance into heaven.

But I thought Abraham was justified by faith? So it seems to me that the mode of salvation was by faith. They looked forward to Christ and we look back. So if John the Baptist was in the age of the Law how could Jesus have been promising assuarance of salvation to those who died in the Age of the Law?

Actually the sacrifice of goats and bulls never did pay the price.

One must rightly divide the word of God to know the truth. Infants can not make a decision to believe or not to believe when the word is spoken, therefore it is impossible to save one by baptizing one until they can make a choice.

So there are two ways of salvation is what you are telling me. I agree that one must rightly divide the word but my conclusion is that it is not you doing it.

Not all babies received the Holy Spirit in the womb during the Old Testament; only those whom God designated as a prophet.

granted. My point is that this was forshadowing of baptism as was circumcision, which was performed on 8 day old males. You've done nothing to change my view.

Blessings though

 

[Solo]

The old logic still being used today for infant baptism does not surprise me. The fact is that nowhere in the new testament is anyone baptised that did not believe the Word. Those who wish to go to their grave to find the truth are welcome to do so, but God gave us his Word so that we could be saved from condemnation.

If baptizing infants would bring all into heaven, then I suspect that Paul would have been baptizing infants and there would be true examples in the New Testament of infant baptism.

By the way, circumcision did not save infants that were under the law.

Also if God's word hasn't done anything to change your view, I know nothing that I say or point out to you will because it goes against your belief in the RCC. No doubt you will one day know the whole truth.

 

[thessalonian]

The old logic still being used today for infant baptism does not surprise me. The fact is that nowhere in the new testament is anyone baptised that did not believe the Word. Those who wish to go to their grave to find the truth are welcome to do so, but God gave us his Word so that we could be saved from condemnation.

Arguements from silence are not very persuasive. Tell me, do households usually include children? Are their two methods of salvation or one? How are children saved or are they all damned to hell?

[quote:911c0]If baptizing infants would bring all into heaven, then I suspect that Paul would have been baptizing infants and there would be true examples in the New Testament of infant baptism.

Households were baptized. What proof do you have that they did not include children? Why doesn't it say "households except for the kiddies"? You assume that because something is not explicitly recorded in scripture it did not happen. You go beyond what is written in assuming no children were baptized.

[quote:911c0]By the way, circumcision did not save infants that were under the law.

Actually I agree. But you avoided my question. Before the resurrection was Jesus lying to those whom he preached OSAS to in John 3:16? These people still were under the Old Covenant so by your "rightly dividing, John was under the law" theory, it seems to me that they were not OSAS until after the resurrection if OSAS is true.

Also if God's word hasn't done anything to change your view, I know nothing that I say or point out to you will because it goes against your belief in the RCC. No doubt you will one day know the whole truth.

[/quote:911c0][/quote:911c0]

Back at ya. :

 

[Solo]

Being sealed unto the day of redemption did not occur until one could be born of God which was after Jesus ascension. The Holy Spirit is given out as God the Father sees necessary prior to that, but in the covenant that he made with Jews and Gentiles after the veil was rent in two, was that those who believed on the Word that Jesus died for the sins of the world and was resurrected from the dead would be saved. The Holy Spirit would then come to dwell within each believer sealing him/her until the day of redemption. The body of Christ is the entire group of believers that are born of God. If a baby is baptized, then it is a nice thing for the parents to feel secure about, but the fact is that nothing is accomplished. I was baptized as an infant and my grandmother was my god-parent. I was on my way to hell until I was twenty-eight years old when I heard the word of God and believed in Jesus Christ.

Households can have infants and children and adults. The New Testament scripture says that those that heard the word and believed had the Holy Spirit fall upon them, after which they were baptized. Infants do not have the capacity to hear the word and believe. Children do, but infants do not.

My children were 6, 7, 10, 7, and 6 when they heard the word and believed. Each was enrolled in a class to validate their beliefs after which they were baptized. Would they have perished had they died prior to that point. The Bible is not very explicit about the age of accountability so I can only say that God's character and what Jesus did on the cross would have probably guaranteed their entrance into the kingdom. It is God's will.

Children can believe unto salvation but infants can not. If an infant is baptized and then becomes a believer at a later date, then the infant baptism was of no effect. We are to follow Jesus and be immitators of him, and as he was baptized as a symbol of receiveing the Holy Spirit, we too are to perform the same. This follows the word, not tradition. Where the word and tradition contradict one better follow the word.

The following scripture shows that some in the time of Jesus kept tradition over the word of God, and that was wrong.


Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mark 7:13

 

[thessalonian]

So Jesus was not teaching the people OSAS in John 3:16. Thanks for confirming that.

 

[Solo]

So Jesus was not teaching the people OSAS in John 3:16. Thanks for confirming that.

Jesus taught OSAS to Nicodemas, but the fact remains that the comfortor would not come until after Jesus ascension. I understand that tradition can come in the way of learning the truth, but one should really be prayerful when studying the word of God. I had to grow immensly after being brought up in a Roman Catholic look alike protestant church whereby I was baptized as an infant, confirmed, and told that I was heading for heaven. Wrong. I was on my way directly to hell because I had not believed yet, nor was I baptized after the way of Jesus Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

So Jesus was not teaching the people OSAS in John 3:16. Thanks for confirming that.

Jesus taught OSAS to Nicodemas, but the fact remains that the comfortor would not come until after Jesus ascension. I understand that tradition can come in the way of learning the truth, but one should really be prayerful when studying the word of God. I had to grow immensly after being brought up in a Roman Catholic look alike protestant church whereby I was baptized as an infant, confirmed, and told that I was heading for heaven. Wrong. I was on my way directly to hell because I had not believed yet, nor was I baptized after the way of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church does not teach Once Baptized Always Saved so you were not told you were going to heaven. That is a distortion of what you were taught. I have NEVER heard ANYONE in the Catholic Church teach it. Your growth was under the traditions of false teachers.


I finally caught someone in the box.
So Jesus was teaching in the New Testament OSAS, i.e. that if people believed in him they were OSAS.

John 3
[12] If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
[15] that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." [16] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

All over the place it says they believed in him, especially in John's Gospel, yet they were not OSAS?

John.4
[39] Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me all that I ever did."

John.7
[31] Yet many of the people believed in him; they said, "When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?"

John.8
[30] As he spoke thus, many believed in him.
[31] Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,


They believed just like he said but you say that isn't enough. Or perhaps you are saying, yes they believed but they could still fall because they didn't have the Holy Spirit. Either way if John 3:16 is preaching OSAS you make Jesus out to be a liar my friend. Your "tradition" of OSAS has Jesus as a liar. Therefore he either is one or you misunderstand the Gospel and Catholicism for that matter.

The context is as it is in Catholicism. They had to continue beleiving in him. They had eternal life as he said but it was conditional upon their continuing to believe in him. That is how this conundrum you have wandered in to is resolved.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

I know that the RCC teaches that infant baptism brings one into the RCC institution whereby one must obey the RCC from that point forward of be lost.

The same idea is transferred to some of the protestant churches that do infant baptisms of which I was one.

I was lost and going to hell even though I was baptized as an infant, but now that I have been born of God and baptized after salvation, the whole picture is clear, and scripture is true.

Man's traditions are in error, but God is true.

Jesus taught Nicodemas that one must be born of God in order to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus died once for all with no sacrifices necessary after the born again process. The lie of the Eucharist continues to invade the truth of Christ having to die only once to redeem mankind.

I would kindly ask you to not put false words in my mouth. I have been very plain with my beliefs, and I will not stand for the twisting of God's word nor the false witness against my word.

Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit of promise did not indwell them as he does today until after Jesus' ascension.

Thank you.

 

[thessalonian]

I know that the RCC teaches that infant baptism brings one into the RCC institution whereby one must obey the RCC from that point forward of be lost.

The same idea is transferred to some of the protestant churches that do infant baptisms of which I was one.

I was lost and going to hell even though I was baptized as an infant, but now that I have been born of God and baptized after salvation, the whole picture is clear, and scripture is true.

Seems the Catholic Church is true because you were not obeying it and quite likely in fact were lost and going to hell even though you were baptized.

Man's traditions are in error, but God is true.

You wouldn't know an errant tradition if it bit ya.

Jesus taught Nicodemas that one must be born of God in order to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus died once for all with no sacrifices necessary after the born again process. The lie of the Eucharist continues to invade the truth of Christ having to die only once to redeem mankind.

So hear you are telling me that belief is not enough. It was not enough in the passages of John's Gospel. Yet Jesus says in John 3:16, if you believe you have eternal life. But if this means OSAS then they did not have eternal life. Your definition has run afoul. Then you lash out at Catholicism with a straw man arguement distorting what I believe to top it off. Your hipocrisy is duly noted.

I would kindly ask you to not put false words in my mouth. I have been very plain with my beliefs, and I will not stand for the twisting of God's word nor the false witness against my word.

I fully acknowledged that you said the Holy Spirit was needed and this couldn't happen until after the resurection. I twist nothing you said. Your just avoiding what I have said.

Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit of promise did not indwell them as he does today until after Jesus' ascension.

That was in my mind all the time. It makes Jesus words no more true in the context in which you place them.

You have avoided my question. If Jesus says OSAS in John 3:16 and they believed in him as in the many passages in John's Gospel, then why were they not OSAS. I acknowledge that they did not have the Holy Spirit but John 3:16 is supposed to be saying that they HAVE eternal life. Yet eternal life is not eternal life because they can still fall because they don't have the Holy Spirit (if in fact the Holy Spirit makes it impossible for them to fall).