Instructions from Jesus about the End of Days

[Drew]

Are you saying that Matt 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 are refering to the events of 70ad??????

Yes.

Maybe you can tell me how the Abomination of the Desalator took place around 70ad??????

I will have to get back to you. I will bet that some historical figure can legitimately be seen as taking this very role.

 

[Ret]

There is another problem associated with seeing Matthew 24 as a description of the second coming. In verse 30, Jesus says this:

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

The image of "coming on the clouds" has, I suggest, been simply assumed to refer to a descent from heaven to earth. Instead, this image is drawn from Daniel 7 where it denotes an ascent from earth to heaven:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

We need to understand the "son of man coming on the clouds" imagery in its Biblical context. And in Daniel 7, the metaphor is used to describe vindication after suffering, an upward movement of exultation.

Jesus - who no doubt knew the book of Daniel - would certainly have used the image appropriately. Readers need to understand the meaning of the "coming on the clouds" metaphor - its use is entirely inconsistent with a 2nd coming interpretation of Matthew 24.

• Daniel 7:13-14
  
  13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came (up/NAS) to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
  
  14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV

Yes, Daniel 7 gives reference to the time when Jesus ascended UP to heaven in the clouds, after His resurrection, at which time HE received an EVERLASTING DOMINION! Taking possession of that DOMINION happens later.

Matthew gives a different coming, which is consistent with Thessalonians and Revelation ...

• Matthew 24:30-31
  30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. KJV
  
  1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
  15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
  16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
  17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
  
  Revelation 1:7
  7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. KJV

 

[Drew]

And who are the so called scholars that agree with you??????????

I have answered some of your questions and hope to answer the others shortly. Perhaps you can respond to my post about how a 2nd coming discourse would be entirely inappropriate for the audience Jesus is addressing - the disciples.

And British New Testament scholar NT Wright - the present Bishop of Durham - is the principal source for my ideas on all this stuff. Not all agree with Wright, but I doubt any would quarrel with his scholarly credentials.

 

[Drew]

Yes, Daniel 7 gives reference to the time when Jesus ascended UP to heaven in the clouds, after His resurrection, at which time HE received an EVERLASTING DOMINION! Taking possession of that DOMINION happens later.

No. Jesus is already enthroned - this does not happen "later". Here is just one argument for this:

From Acts 4:

On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
" 'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One

Note the context: Peter and John are praying this prayer in response to the actions of the religious leaders. Now the content of the prayer quotes directly from Psalm 2. This is not “co-incidenceâ€Â. Here is the material from Psalm 2:

Note that the prayer quotes Psalm 2, verses 1 and 2:

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD and against his Anointed One.

And what does Psalm 2 go on to say a few breaths later in respect to this "annointed one"?:

I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill

It is important to think this through. Assuming that Peter and John know their scriptures, they know that Psalm 2 describes rebellion against a sitting King. Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would inspire the writer of Acts to record this prayer, which exactly echoes the Psalm 2 account of rebellion against a sitting King, and not expect us to draw the obvious conclusion – Jesus is indeed that very King, already installed, just as Psalm 2 declares.

The scriptures are clear and consistent. Even though (obviously) we do not have Jesus with us in person, his Kingship has been established.

 

[Drew]

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Ummmmmmmm you cant fit this into 70ad because aint no angels gathered me yet..

I have no idea where this penchant for literalism has come from. To argue that this text is literally about being gathered by angels is like arguing that the chapter from which Jesus is quoting - Daniel 7 - is about literal beasts with wings, and eyes, etc. coming up out of a literal sea.

This text works perfectly well as a metaphor for vindication of the members of the young church. It is hugely inappropriate to take this text literally since it is so clear that the allusions which it makes (e.g. to Daniel 7) are allusions that are richly symbolic and obviously metaphorical.

 

[researcher]

This means that I do not need to rationalize the statement about all this happening in the present generation.

;)

[quote:1wcfo6iy] :D

Are you saying that Matt 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21 are refering to the events of 70ad??????
[/quote:1wcfo6iy]

Basically. This is what I've come to believe, yes. ;) :D

 

[researcher]

NM, a little more.

The Tares i.e. sons of the devil
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Judgement of the Tares
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees etc. The tares/Satan's sons were in Jerusalem in 70AD. And the Roman armies would have killed them when they destroyed and burned the city.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

NM, a little more.

The Tares i.e. sons of the devil
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Judgement of the Tares
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees etc. The tares/Satan's sons were in Jerusalem in 70AD. And the Roman armies would have killed them when they destroyed and burned the city.

Waz up researcher

I dont think the tares were destroyed in 70ad,,,,,,do you believe the tares are the same ones mentiond in revelation?????? those who claim to be Jews but lie.......

 

[researcher]

NM, a little more.

The Tares i.e. sons of the devil
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Judgement of the Tares
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees etc. The tares/Satan's sons were in Jerusalem in 70AD. And the Roman armies would have killed them when they destroyed and burned the city.

Waz up researcher

I dont think the tares were destroyed in 70ad,,,,,,do you believe the tares are the same ones mentiond in revelation?????? those who claim to be Jews but lie.......

100%

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet,

What was happening in 1st century Synagogues
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

Who ran the synagogues and worshiped there? The people who Jesus said this about
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers,

But are not?
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The sons of the devil ran the synagogues, and worshiped in them. Which would make them.. synagogues of Satan. Lol. ;) :D

First century Christians were persecuted mostly by the Jews. Those Christians surely understood and experienced what Rev 3:9 was saying.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
1Th 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

NM, a little more.

The Tares i.e. sons of the devil
Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Judgement of the Tares
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were some of the Jews and Pharisees etc. The tares/Satan's sons were in Jerusalem in 70AD. And the Roman armies would have killed them when they destroyed and burned the city.

Waz up researcher

I dont think the tares were destroyed in 70ad,,,,,,do you believe the tares are the same ones mentiond in revelation?????? those who claim to be Jews but lie.......

100%

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet,

What was happening in 1st century Synagogues
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

Who ran the synagogues and worshiped there? The people who Jesus said this about
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers,

But are not?
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The sons of the devil ran the synagogues, and worshiped in them. Which would make them.. synagogues of Satan. Lol. ;) :D

First century Christians were persecuted mostly by the Jews. Those Christians surely understood and experienced what Rev 3:9 was saying.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
1Th 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Ok how I see it is in the parable the instruction were not to pull up the tares/fake jews until harvest (end of the age) and we have not yet come to the harvest yet......But long ago GOd put a protection ring around these fake jews/tares,,,,,,

Genesis 4:15 "And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."

Well you already know who I believe these fake jews are,,,,but I also believe they hold a purpose in the overall plan of God,,,,just like there father.......and thats why God would not let the angels or Titus destroy them........I will post more on this later tonight if I can,,,,my laptop battery died and the laptop went into some kinda stanby/hybernation mode ,,,it comes on,, but no display

 

[researcher]

Cool. I have work and then Ultimate Frisbee tonight. I'll check in after. ;) :D

 

[Eccl12and13]

"but if your argument is that "what is described in Zech 14 lies in the future and", then you have a big problem."

Just a few questions concerning Zech.14;

1. Just when did God gather ALL the nations against Jerusalem to battle? vs.2

2. When did the mount of Olives, "cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."? vs.4

3. When was all the land, "...turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem..."? vs.10

4. At what point has there been, "...no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."? vs.11

5. When have ALL the nations that fought against Jerusalem in question 1. "...go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."? vs. 17

Understand that God's inspired word says ALL of these things WILL take place. Now if you are saying they have and that Zech is NOT speaking about future events, please direct all those reading to the historical books that proves your claim.



.

 

[Drew]

Now if you are saying they have and that Zech is NOT speaking about future events, please direct all those reading to the historical books that proves your claim.

I will look into the text in more detail. But even without a detailed analysis, there is every reason to think that the prophecy of that chapter has already been fulfilled. As per what I have already posted.

Note this from Zechariah 14:9

The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

This is entirely consistent with the "70 AD" interpretation. I have to look at other material in Zechariah 14, but if your argument is that "what is described in Zech 14 lies in the future and", then you have a big problem. There is, I suggest, an overwhelming Biblical case that Jesus has already been enthroned as king over the earth. I am prepared to argue this in annoying detail.

Are you denying that Jesus has not already been enthroned? I am more than happy to make the Biblical case that He has. And that suggests that Zech 14 has already been fulfilled.

But I will get back to you on your specific questions about Zech 14.

 

[Drew]

Just a few questions concerning Zech.14;

1. Just when did God gather ALL the nations against Jerusalem to battle? vs.2

First a general point. As per my previous posts, my basic position is that Zech 14 describes the events around Jesus' life - it is not about the future. I plan to go into much more detail later. I do not have an immediate answer to your question 1.

2. When did the mount of Olives, "cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."? vs.4

First, I suggest that one needs to read the Zechariah material metaphorically in keeping with a well-established Biblical tradition of such "apocalyptic" language being used to describe more "realistic" events.

I think that Jesus invokes Zech 14 when he sits on the Mount of OIives and gives his discourse of Matthew 24 (and parallels). Jesus is going to Jerusalem to fight a great battle and get enthroned. The echoes of Zech 14 are clear - such themes are all over the place in Zech 14.

So while I have only just begun to make my case, I trust that we can legitimately see Jesus fulfilling Zech 14 in his "first coming". I do not think it is a coincidence that Jesus evokes Zech 14 as he sits on the Mount of Olives - a rather clear allusion to Zech 14:4.