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[_ Old Earth _] Intelligent design questions answered

  • Thread starter Thread starter reznwerks
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reznwerks

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"Darwinian evolution is just a theory.

Yes and no. In common use, a theory is a hunch or an idea, a possible explanation for some observation. But the National Academy of Sciences offers this scientific definition of theory: "A well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and test hypotheses." Science has many useful theories -- like Einstein's theory of relativity or the germ theory of infectious disease. These are accepted as true, because their predictions come true, but they don't have to be comprehensive or perfect. The recent discovery of mad cow disease, for example, overturned parts of germ theory, but not the core: Microbes can cause disease.

Scientifically, Darwinian evolution is indeed a theory, but it's one of the best-documented theories in science. It could be disproved, but you would need strong evidence before most biologists would question the core: Organisms change over time in response to differential survival in their environment."
http://whyfiles.org/216evolution_qu/index.php?p=2.txt
 
Intelligent Design.

The molecule of heredity, DNA, contains information necessary to build life. Where did the information come from?

The biomechanical machines necessary to 'read' the DNA are also 'built' by the information on the DNA. So you need the info to make the DNA and the info to read the DNA and the info to make the DNA and the info to read the DNA.......

Information scientists have found that information and code systems cannot arise from matter on their own, but must be organized by an intelligent source, ultimately.

"We have seen that living things are too inprobable and too beautifully designed to have come into existence by chance."
-- Richard Dawkins (a vehement athiestic evolutionist), in "The Blind Watchmaker," p.43 (NY, 1987).
 
Organisms change over time in response to differential survival in their environment."

I agree as we can see this in nature.

It's called Natural Selection.
Living things are culled based on environmental pressures or changes. This involves a loss or redistribution of genetic information as animals become unable to interbreed, so it cannot be a mechanism for evolution (which claims the addition of information in stages). Natural selection is basically a "conservative" force, which supports the Biblical teaching that all things were created to reproduce 'after their kind.'

Mutations.
These are copying mistakes as genetic info is passed from parent to child. Also involves a loss or corruption of the original genetic content, not a net gain, as is required by fish-to-philosopher evolution. Mutations are explained by the Biblical teaching that all things are suffering from the curse caused by Adam's sin (Gen. 3:17-19; Romans 8:20-22).

"All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it."
-- Dr. Lee Spetner, in "Not By Chance," p.138 (NY, 1997).
 
chance

HGPgal said:
Intelligent Design.

The molecule of heredity, DNA, contains information necessary to build life. Where did the information come from?

The biomechanical machines necessary to 'read' the DNA are also 'built' by the information on the DNA. So you need the info to make the DNA and the info to read the DNA and the info to make the DNA and the info to read the DNA.......

Information scientists have found that information and code systems cannot arise from matter on their own, but must be organized by an intelligent source, ultimately.

"We have seen that living things are too inprobable and too beautifully designed to have come into existence by chance."
-- Richard Dawkins (a vehement athiestic evolutionist), in "The Blind Watchmaker," p.43 (NY, 1987).
Just because science may not have all he answers to something does not default to a God and certainly not default to the God of the bible. You try to imply that there is a probability that God is the instigator of life on this planet. In so doing that does not mean that man is special or that the bible is true. You try to imply that the quote from Dawkins is an admission of God which could'nt be further from the truth. For more on Dawkins:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:vG ... tion&hl=en
 
dr

HGPgal said:
Organisms change over time in response to differential survival in their environment."

I agree as we can see this in nature.

It's called Natural Selection.
Living things are culled based on environmental pressures or changes. This involves a loss or redistribution of genetic information as animals become unable to interbreed, so it cannot be a mechanism for evolution (which claims the addition of information in stages). Natural selection is basically a "conservative" force, which supports the Biblical teaching that all things were created to reproduce 'after their kind.'

Mutations.
These are copying mistakes as genetic info is passed from parent to child. Also involves a loss or corruption of the original genetic content, not a net gain, as is required by fish-to-philosopher evolution. Mutations are explained by the Biblical teaching that all things are suffering from the curse caused by Adam's sin (Gen. 3:17-19; Romans 8:20-22).
The bible never discussed mutations. This is your solution to problems between science and your beliefs.

"All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it."
-- Dr. Lee Spetner, in "Not By Chance," p.138 (NY, 1997).
Dr Spetner has a PHD from MIT in Physics and is not trained in the disiplines of evolutionary thought. Increasingly SPetner and his specialty IS NOT found in that in which he is trained but rather in the personal interest of trying to debunk evolutionary evidence. Creation science has been adequately debunked and only those who refuse to accept it despite the evidence presented continue to try.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/
 
"Creation science has been adequately debunked and only those who refuse to accept it despite the evidence presented continue to try."

You mis-typed. It should read:
Evolution has been adequately debunked and those who refuse to accept it despite the evidence presented continue to try.

You have complained about missing references, so I'll oblige...

The Bias

It is folly to believe that facts speak for themselvesâ€â€they are always interpreted according to a framework. The framework behind the evolutionists’ interpretation is naturalismâ€â€it is assumed that things made themselves, that no divine intervention has happened.

Evolution is a deduction from this assumption, and it is essentially the idea that things made themselves. It includes these unproven ideas: nothing gave rise to something at an alleged ‘big bang,’ non-living matter gave rise to life, single-celled organisms gave rise to many-celled organisms, invertebrates gave rise to vertebrates, ape-like creatures gave rise to man, non-intelligent and amoral matter gave rise to intelligence and morality, man’s yearnings gave rise to religions, etc.

"Evolution [is] a theory universally accepted not because it can be proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."
-- Professor D.M.S. Watson, one of the leading biologists and science writers of his day, demonstrated the atheistic bias behind much evolutionary thinking.

So it’s not a question of biased religious creationists versus objective scientific evolutionists; rather, it is the biases of the Christian religion versus the biases of the religion of secular humanism resulting in different interpretations of the same scientific data.

"We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfil many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."
-- Richard Lewontin, Billions and Billions of Demons, The New York Review, 9 January 1997, p. 31.

Many evolutionists chide creationists not because of the facts, but because creationists refuse to play by the current rules of the game that exclude supernatural creation a priori.

Teaching evolution propagates an anti-biblical religion. The first two tenets of the Humanist Manifesto II (1973), signed by many prominent evolutionists, are:

1)Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created, and 2) Humanism believes that Man is a part of nature and has emerged as a result of a continuous process.

This is exactly what evolution teaches. Many humanist leaders are quite open about using the public schools to proselytize their faith.

Many evolutionary books, including Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science, contrast religion/creation opinions with evolution/science facts. It is important to realize that this is a misleading contrast. Creationists often appeal to the facts of science to support their view, and evolutionists often appeal to philosophical assumptions from outside science. W hile creationists are often criticized for starting with a bias, evolutionists also start with a bias, as many of them admit. The debate between creation and evolution is primarily a dispute between two worldviews, with mutually incompatible underlying assumptions.

Many evolution books are openly atheistic, like those by Richard Dawkins. On page 129 it says: ‘Statements about creation … should not be regarded as reasonable alternatives to scientific explanations for the origin and evolution of life.’ Since anything not reasonable is unreasonable, Teaching about Evolution is in effect saying that believers in creation are really unreasonable and irrational. This is hardly religiously neutral, but is regarded by many religious people as an attack.

--For refutations of Dawkins’ books, see: G.H. Duggan, Review of The Blind Watchmaker, Apologia 6(1):121–122, 1997; K.T. Gallagher, Dawkins in Biomorph Land, International Philosophical Quarterly 32(4):501–513, December 1992; R.G. Bohlin, Up the River Without a Paddle, Review of River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 10(3):322–327, 1996; J.D. Sarfati, Review of Climbing Mt Improbable, Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12(1):29–34, 1998; W. Gitt, Weasel Words, Creation Ex Nihilo 20(4):20–21, September–November 1998.

A recent survey published in the leading science journal Nature conclusively showed that the National Academy of Sciences, the producers of Teaching about Evolution, is heavily biased against God, rather than religiously unbiased. A survey of all 517 NAS members in biological and physical sciences resulted in just over half responding: 72.2% were overtly atheistic, 20.8% agnostic, and only 7.0% believed in a personal God. Belief in God and immortality was lowest among biologists. It is likely that those who didn’t respond were unbelievers as well, so the study probably underestimates the level of anti-God belief in the NAS. The percentage of unbelief is far higher than the percentage among U.S. scientists in general, or in the whole U.S. population.

--E.J. Larson and L. Witham, Leading Scientists Still Reject God, Nature 394(6691):313, 23 July 1998. The sole criterion for being classified as a ‘leading’ or ‘greater’ scientist was membership of the NAS.

"The philosophy of experimental science … began its discoveries and made use of its methods in the faith, not the knowledge, that it was dealing with a rational universe controlled by a creator who did not act upon whim nor interfere with the forces He had set in operation … . It is surely one of the curious paradoxes of history that science, which professionally has little to do with faith, owes its origins to an act of faith that the universe can be rationally interpreted, and that science today is sustained by that assumption."
--L. Eiseley: Darwin’s Century: Evolution and the Men who Discovered It (Anchor, NY: Doubleday, 1961).

C.S. Lewis pointed out that even our ability to reason would be called into question if atheistic evolution were true:

"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our thought processes are mere accidents, the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the materialists’ and astronomers’ as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts, i.e., of Materialism and Astronomy are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give a correct account of all the other accidents."
-- C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1970), p. 52–53. (This is a great read, no matter your persuation!)

For further study, please see:
Evolution & creation, science & religion, facts & bias
by Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D., F.M.
 
amazing

HGPgal said:
"Creation science has been adequately debunked and only those who refuse to accept it despite the evidence presented continue to try."

You mis-typed. It should read:
Evolution has been adequately debunked and those who refuse to accept it despite the evidence presented continue to try.
LOL Well then it should be no problem to show the evidence that "debunks" it.

You have complained about missing references, so I'll oblige...
I don't believe I have.

The Bias

It is folly to believe that facts speak for themselvesâ€â€they are always interpreted according to a framework. The framework behind the evolutionists’ interpretation is naturalismâ€â€it is assumed that things made themselves, that no divine intervention has happened.
You have nothing but facts to compare in science. Belief does not count nor the lack of any other suitable conclusion.

Evolution is a deduction from this assumption, and it is essentially the idea that things made themselves. It includes these unproven ideas: nothing gave rise to something at an alleged ‘big bang,’ non-living matter gave rise to life, single-celled organisms gave rise to many-celled organisms, invertebrates gave rise to vertebrates, ape-like creatures gave rise to man, non-intelligent and amoral matter gave rise to intelligence and morality, man’s yearnings gave rise to religions, etc.
Evolution is a deduction based on the evidence. You don't understand what evolution is. Creating something from nothing is not evolution. However the fact that we do not know how something came about does not prove a God did it.This is a belief and "assumption" that theists have.

"Evolution [is] a theory universally accepted not because it can be proven by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."
-- Professor D.M.S. Watson, one of the leading biologists and science writers of his day, demonstrated the atheistic bias behind much evolutionary thinking.
Sorry but it is a theory with as much clout as gravity. We know it occurs but not sure of all the workings.

So it’s not a question of biased religious creationists versus objective scientific evolutionists; rather, it is the biases of the Christian religion versus the biases of the religion of secular humanism resulting in different interpretations of the same scientific data.
You are biased in the view of Christianity being the only true religion. Why can 't other religions be right in how the world came to be especially those that are no longer practiced? After all they were closer to the original event and that would make more sense. Yes it is a question of biased religious creationists versus "OBJECTIVE" scientific evolutionists. Grab a dictionary and see what "OBJECTIVE " means.

"We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfil many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."
-- Richard Lewontin, Billions and Billions of Demons, The New York Review, 9 January 1997, p. 31.
Ricard Lewonton is a Christian apologist and not a scientist trained in evolutionary disiplines.

Many evolutionists chide creationists not because of the facts, but because creationists refuse to play by the current rules of the game that exclude supernatural creation a priori.
Untrue. Evolutionists chide creationists because creationist refuse to see what is before them and nothing more. It is no different than creationists insisting that black is white when 99% percent agree that black is black.

Teaching evolution propagates an anti-biblical religion. The first two tenets of the Humanist Manifesto II (1973), signed by many prominent evolutionists, are:
I definately agree that to accept evolution you cannot accept the bible as written.

1)Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created, and 2) Humanism believes that Man is a part of nature and has emerged as a result of a continuous process.

This is exactly what evolution teaches. Many humanist leaders are quite open about using the public schools to proselytize their faith.
Evolution is not a faith and humanism is not a religion. Humanism is simply an approach that benefits mankind in the here and now and does not promise goodies in the hereafter which no one has seen and cannot be proven to exist.

Many evolutionary books, including Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science, contrast religion/creation opinions with evolution/science facts.
What do you have against facts. That should open your eyes right there. You want to throw away facts and evidence with unproven stories from a book riddled with errors and mistakes.

It is important to realize that this is a misleading contrast. Creationists often appeal to the facts of science to support their view, and evolutionists often appeal to philosophical assumptions from outside science. W hile creationists are often criticized for starting with a bias, evolutionists also start with a bias, as many of them admit. The debate between creation and evolution is primarily a dispute between two worldviews, with mutually incompatible underlying assumptions.
You seem to have a real hostility toward facts.

Many evolution books are openly atheistic, like those by Richard Dawkins. On page 129 it says: ‘Statements about creation … should not be regarded as reasonable alternatives to scientific explanations for the origin and evolution of life.’ Since anything not reasonable is unreasonable, Teaching about Evolution is in effect saying that believers in creation are really unreasonable and irrational. This is hardly religiously neutral, but is regarded by many religious people as an attack.
Agreed again. Beleiving doesn't make something true and fact are just that ,facts. They openly defy what it says in the bible. If the bible were true the FACTS would support it.They don't.

--For refutations of Dawkins’ books, see: G.H. Duggan, Review of The Blind Watchmaker, Apologia 6(1):121–122, 1997; K.T. Gallagher, Dawkins in Biomorph Land, International Philosophical Quarterly 32(4):501–513, December 1992; R.G. Bohlin, Up the River Without a Paddle, Review of River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 10(3):322–327, 1996; J.D. Sarfati, Review of Climbing Mt Improbable, Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 12(1):29–34, 1998; W. Gitt, Weasel Words, Creation Ex Nihilo 20(4):20–21, September–November 1998.
None of the sources refute Dawkins based on evidence tthat is accepted in the science community. When was the last time a creationist had ANY paper on the subject published in any notworthy scientific journal?

A recent survey published in the leading science journal Nature conclusively showed that the National Academy of Sciences, the producers of Teaching about Evolution, is heavily biased against God, rather than religiously unbiased.
No surprise here either.The evidence doesn't support a God. It is plain and simple. Do you think evolutionists believe the way they do just to aggravate you?Your pastor must be telling you of this elaborate scheme put in place by Satan to decieve whole world about evolution. Did you ever ask yourself WHY? As I said if the bible were correct the evidence would be very evident. Why would God go out of his way to HIDE the evidence if HE really wanted a relationship with us.? THINK!



.
I deleted the rest of you post as it just got off subject and discussed your rant about atheism and theism. Remember when you go off on a tangent about evolutionists not having all the evidence that theists have none at all.
 
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