Growth Introspection

[netchaplain]

I'm glad this subject came up again. I used to think of faith as an appendage like an arm that a person could exercise to grow by means of free will, and that if I exercised such faith that I could divine God's power and wield it like a wizard (in that imagery). But God's word and the Holy Spirit duly corrected me. I found out that faith is an underlying trust in God such that one's life is centered around what God said. And I have been discovering more and more that other people like myself understand that faith is the gift of God.

I agree, the trust is the faith and is given as an internal knowing or confirmation, i.e. the Spirit always assuring a conscious knowing "that we are the children of God" (Rom 8:16). It's the same concerning our growth in our faith (salvation is an unalterable constant and does not admit in degrees as faith does), we cannot work-up a belief or an understanding that the Spirit has not yet given us, as we walk only in what He teaches us at the time, no more and no less. He's always preparing us to learn, and it's always in increments.

Blessings!

 

[K2CHRIST]

I kind of like the OP. Good for some thought. So a couple of things:

2 Pet 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

I like this verse quoted, but I have a thought on the "through the knowledge of Him", part of this verse. That is, divine power has been given to us in all things that pertain to life and godliness, but it is important to understand that is comes through the knowledge of Him. Too often it seems people focus on Christians having diving power but they fail to realize that it come through the knowledge of Him. That is to say, if I know Him and listen to Him, and do what He tells me; then I have the divine power backing me up! So it is not enough to think I have divine power, I have to know Him also! I am not sure that concept is presented.

I also have a thought on Gal 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

It actually does not say 'faith' but rather 'faithfulness'. Is there not a difference? I might have a faithful dog, but I can't say the dog has any faith. I might even say the Pharisees and Sadducees were faithful, in that they made it there lives work to serve God, at least in their own mind, but they seemed to lack the belief or faith that God was really around, or why didn't they seek Him. In their mind, it seem that they believe God was in a far off place called heaven, so that they could be faithful, in their own minds at least, but lack faith in the existence of a God known as 'I Am'. Of course the Spirit wouldn't give them that impression, but people could be confused and Gal 5:22 might not mean faith but faithfulness in the true meaning.

 

[netchaplain]

2 Pet 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

I like this verse quoted, but I have a thought on the "through the knowledge of Him", part of this verse. That is, divine power has been given to us in all things that pertain to life and godliness

but it is important to understand that is comes through the knowledge of Him.

Hi and appreciate your reply and comments! I agree that the key in this verse is understanding it's all "through the knowledge" of the Father's "calling us to glory." Concerning "divine power," it is not said to be given to us but that this power has bestowed life (eternal) and godliness.

This is similar to what is in the following verse: "partakers of the divine nature." I believe we are partakers of the divine nature via its provision--which is being conformed by it through the Spirit, because it is after Christ's image (Col 3:10). Partaker of the benefits from the nature which is divine, but not partakers of the divinity, which exists only within God.

I also have a thought on Gal 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. It actually does not say 'faith' but rather 'faithfulness'. Is there not a difference?

I would say that faith produces faithfulness, but faithfulness does not produce faith for there first must be faith to effect being faithful. This is why I prefer the literal rendering "faith" (YLT; KJV; Web).

I see faithfulness (related to "fidelity") more accurately applied in passages like Titus 2:10; "shewing all good fidelity (faithfulness), i.e. produced from being "sound in the faith" (2:2).

I like your communication manors and thanks!

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[K2CHRIST]

I would say that faith produces faithfulness, but faithfulness does not produce faith for there first must be faith to effect being faithful. This is why I prefer the literal rendering "faith" (YLT; KJV; Web).

I kind of agree the faith tends to produce faithfulness, but their is something written about faith without works being dead, and the question of will that kind of faith save you. So there is a type of faith that does not save you. And also, there might be other things beside faith that produce faithfulness. For example, I might be faithful to my work because it pays me. So if my work was say, being a preacher or pastor, then I might be faithful (or at least seem faithful) because I am getting paid. Other things beside money or the Spirit of God, might also produce faithfulness. Fame and recognition might do the trick. That is someone might go around preaching the Bible and other works so people will pay attention to them.

Now I will hear the Lord talk to me via the Holy Spirit like this morning when He woke me up with the words "Son, it is time to get up." He knows me and I know Him. So then later He tells me to go do things for Him, and I might do them because I hear Him and know Him. There is that kind of faithfulness which is based only on knowing Him. And I find that when I do go and do the things He tells me, often divine power tends to show up to help me with tasks He has me doing.

"through the knowledge"

2 Peter 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

So I read a verse like the above, know that He call me, like when He got me up this morning by saying "Son, it is time to get up now," and because I believe it is Him, the Lord, I get up and tend to do the things He tells me, which produces a type of faithfulness, not a faithfulness based upon money or recognition, but a faithfulness based upon my knowledge of Him who called me by His Spirit. And sometimes His divine power shows up, like when I am working in the healing ministry that He has had me work in.

It all seems pretty simple to me. I know God. He tells me what to do. I do it. And He provides His divine power as needed. What I don't understand is all the big puffy extravagant words used to describe that simple concept of knowing the Lord and doing what He tells you.

 

[netchaplain]

I kind of agree the faith tends to produce faithfulness, but their is something written about faith without works being dead

Thanks for the involved reply, and I appreciate your sincerity for the truths of the Scriptures! Concerning "faith without works," I see it as a simile to express the impossibility of having faith and no works (fruit of the Spirit), same illustration that "faith without works is dead," i.e. is nonexistent, as a dead body manifests one who no longer exists in this life.

Thus, dead faith is intended as no faith. In Scripture I only see one type of faith--saving faith--which always manifests (not produces) God's work (fruit). Granted that mere outward appearance of a work of God does not confirm faith, but we are discussing existing faith, not a false professing faith which is absent of God within.

Blessings!

 

[Just_Michael]

...And it has to be the gift of God, if we deeply consider it. 1 Jn. 5:1 says "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." Let us consider the logic of this statement: I cannot choose to believe something I have no trust in. I could try to, but that faith would surely fail, because I don't really believe it. Therefore, if I believe enough to have trust in God's word, then I can choose to believe it. If I do choose to believe it, then I am believing already before my choice to believe. If I didn't believe it in the first place, I certainly wouldn't choose to believe it, because I couldn't choose to believe in something I didn't believe in, since that would be a contradiction of character. No doubt some try to believe in things they don't believe in, but it never lasts, since they mostly find reasons not to believe in that which they do not believe in.

Therefore, 1 Jn. 5:1 speaks of regeneration preceding faith. "Everyone who believes..." means that if I believe in Christ, I am already born of God. It doesn't say "will be" or "could be" or any such thing, it says "is." Some translations render it "has been." Therefore if I believe enough already to trust in the word of the gospel, so that I choose to believe in it (and thus become His disciple), then I have already been born of God, according to this verse of scripture. At the moment I choose to follow Christ, I likely do not understand where my faith is coming from. But in my case, I knew I didn't want to be a Christian, but I did realize (in my own words) "I do believe, and there seems to be nothing I can do about it, so I might as well face it." That was one of the only moments of sincerity I ever had before, concerning self-evaluation.

So then, faith comes to a person as a result of regeneration. Eph. 2:5 says, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)." "Even when we were dead..." tells me that I didn't choose to believe before He raised me up. The gospel was preached, I didn't believe at first, but then God raised me up and gave me ears to hear it, and then I believed. This is the sequence of events told us in this verse, and is how Paul defined the phrase "saved by grace." This is how saving faith comes to us as a gift of God. It is a supernatural and divine imposition. The disposition of our hearts are changed. We are given spiritual wisdom, and hope in Christ. It is the nature of spiritual rebirth. We then want to believe because our hearts were changed from hostility to friendliness toward God.

So what does this knowledge do for us? It causes us to see that our faith in God is dependent on God, and forces us to trust Him for the growth of it. Since the nature of faith is trusting in God, then once we see that faith is increased by God's supernatural imposition in our lives, we trust Him all the more. This causes our faith to grow by the very nature of faith itself. We don't believe in our faith, but we believe in God, in Christ who is the object of our faith (and the author of it). That faith which is the gift of God makes us thirsty for more knowledge of God's word.

The knowledge of where our faith comes from also causes us to be grateful, since we can see the great privilege of being chosen by God for His purpose. It causes us to desire to please and glorify God. It motivates us to love Him all the more. It moves us to believe in God's promise for healing of the heart, mind, and conscience, so that we can shine as lights of Christ's character in this world.
TD

I have never in my life heard such a succint and absolutely mind-blowing explanation of faith. I see now I never really understood in the first place. So thank you for that clarity. So much to unpack. Where to start?

Explains why I kept falling away as a young man--I had no trust. I still do not, in large part, because paranoia has become so ingrained that it is simply a reflexive action. Trust no one and nothing. I think it's probably tied part and parcel with my tendency towards obsessiveness and to ruminate on things to the absolute nth degree. The ultimate Doubting Thomas syndrome, as it were. In my case, though, the self-evaluation is ongoing and unmerciful--we're all our own worst critics, right?

I think this is where fellowship with others in the faith will sort of reinforce God's presence by simply reducing the amount of focus on what is outside waiting in the darkness.

I guess that means that everyone's "regeneration" process takes a different amount of time, then, or is it on-going because of the abrasive and reductive nature of the world?

Also, does Paul therefore imply that God chases us tirelessly? Is this not the idea in the parable of the good shepherd going after the lost? Should that not deepen our shame at our actions in the face of a creator who actively pursued us despite us not being aware of it, or able to perceive it because of the scales of the world over our eyes whilst we pursued anything but Him?

For me, the shame has been keenly felt and crushing; I cannot stand under the weight of it. At what point does regeneration overtake shame? Does it not say that some will only make it by the skin of their teeth? Perhaps I will be such a one; in such case, I will be content to stand in the hall of the feast and merely watch.

For me, my desire to believe comes from my desire for order. Chaos theorists will try to convince a person there is no order to anything at all, and everything occurs by random chance, except...that's not really what the mathematics seem to imply. I sought to find God in the works of His hand written in ten billion-point Arial font across the night sky, and I found that science does nothing but inspire more awe at the magnitude and complexity of the universe's machinery. Surely, I thought, God would leave His name signed on His work, and according to Psalms 19:1, He most certainly did.

Despite my best efforts, it was only until God was ready, I think, that I found Him there, and I could swear He was shaking His head like, "Dude, what are you doing? I'm literally right here."

 

[netchaplain]

So there is a type of faith that does not save you.

Either one has faith or they don't. The sense of "dead faith" is that there is no faith. Faith always succeeds and delivers, because it's given and used by God!

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (Jas 2:26). When someone dies they no longer exist in this world. Same that faith without works is no faith. One cannot have faith and no works because faith always produces works (fruit of the Spirit). You just can't have true works without faith. Faith never fails but can be weak, but it will eventually produce continuously, for God will make it so.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? One can never say he has faith but no fruit or works of the Spirit, because the Spirit only works "through" faith. Nothing can be done for God except through faith!

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
This is some good stuff here netchaplain. I enjoyed reading it.

'Faith in Christ is not of a man's self, nor have all men it (2 Thess 3:2); it is a gift of God, the operation of His power (Col 2:12), and the work of His Spirit, whence He is styled the Spirit of faith (2 Cor 4:13); and which therefore must have a place among His fruits (Gal 5:22); and which lies and shows itself in believing in Christ for salvation, in embracing the doctrines of the Gospel, and making a profession of them, which is called the profession of faith (Heb 10:23); all which, when right, comes from John Gill" Quote from netchaplain

Correct! Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The faith we have to believe in Jesus is God given. Faith is also a gift of the Spirit as you point out.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is also the means of our salvation. The saving faith that we have is not ours. We are sinners saved by grace through faith in Jesus. And that faith is not ours, but the gift of God. That faith is also not of works. We did not earn our faith. This is so no man can boast. That is the awesome part. While we were still sinners, God gifted us the faith to believe. That's why it is always "grace through faith." How do you know if you have faith? I didn't believe and now I do. There is a definite before and after effect.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[netchaplain]

It is also the means of our salvation.

Hi, and thanks you for such a good and instructional reply! (But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, "faith," meekness, temperance).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
This is some good stuff here netchaplain. I enjoyed reading it.

'Faith in Christ is not of a man's self, nor have all men it (2 Thess 3:2); it is a gift of God, the operation of His power (Col 2:12), and the work of His Spirit, whence He is styled the Spirit of faith (2 Cor 4:13); and which therefore must have a place among His fruits (Gal 5:22); and which lies and shows itself in believing in Christ for salvation, in embracing the doctrines of the Gospel, and making a profession of them, which is called the profession of faith (Heb 10:23); all which, when right, comes from John Gill" Quote from netchaplain

Correct! Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The faith we have to believe in Jesus is God given. Faith is also a gift of the Spirit as you point out.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is also the means of our salvation. The saving faith that we have is not ours. We are sinners saved by grace through faith in Jesus. And that faith is not ours, but the gift of God. That faith is also not of works. We did not earn our faith. This is so no man can boast. That is the awesome part. While we were still sinners, God gifted us the faith to believe. That's why it is always "grace through faith." How do you know if you have faith? I didn't believe and now I do. There is a definite before and after effect.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Josef,
I agree with all of the above but would like to clarify one point which, at times, becomes important in conversation - although it may not seem so at first glance.

We all agree that faith is a gift from God.

But wouldn't you say that FAITHFULNESS is a gift of the Holy Spirit in Galatians 5:22?
If you check the different versions, you find that faithfulness is translated by far.

It seems to me that the continuation of our faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, whereas original faith -belief in God - is a gift as seen in Eph 2:8....the gifts there are: GRACE, SALVATION, FAITH.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I have no problem with the modern translation of "faithfulness" wondering. Faith is given by God as a gift to believe. Faithfulness is given by God as a gift to maintain our beliefs.

The greek word used in Galatians 5:22 is
pístis, pis'-tis;
Pístis is overwhelmingly translated as faith in the KJV. (faith (239), assurance (1), believe (with G1537) (1), belief (1), them that believe (1), fidelity (1).

The same is true for the NASB.
faith (238), faithfulness (3), pledge (1), proof (1).

NASB is a faithful word-for-word translation. I trust it. It uses faithfulness. Galatians 5:22 is one of those three times. So I am not opposed to using the word.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz