Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[JLB]

That's the point. The branch was removed from service.

What the verse may be teaching is that those believers who don't bear fruit, God removes or takes away from the earth. Ever thought about that?

There's really no reason at all to default to hell in these kinds of verses.

Esp since Jesus was clear about the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING; to be given eternal life by Jesus (John 10:28).

Those who believe will never perish.

So here is the question for you:

Do those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, still believe?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If my people will....then I will...

 

[JLB]

We better pick up that cross, and pick a direction and start walking, Lest the Lord takes His Talent back and gives it to another. Capish?

I Capish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus teaches that there will be those who believe for a while, and no longer met the condition by which we are saved.

The error here is to assume that one must continually believe in order to continually be saved. Yet the aorist tense refutes such a notion.

Those who believe for a while were saved for a while.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

This verse does NOT support your opinion above. You've certainly not shown that it does.

These believed for a while, but did not "hold fast" or "keep" the word to the bearing of fruit.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Once again, to "hold fast" means to possess, which is eternal life. And those who have been given eternal life by Jesus WILL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus promised in John 10:28.

Yet you persist to claim that one who has believed and has been given eternal life may well experience the second death, or the lake of fire, which suggests that your view doesn't believe the promise that Jesus made in John 10:28.

But I do believe what He said. Completely.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe will never perish.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Do you believe what He said?

So here is the question for you:

Do those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, still believe?
JLB

No, but they are still saved.

Because WHEN they believed, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit, the GUARANTEE of our inheritance and WHEN they believed, they received eternal life and therefore they WILL NEVER PERISH.

I believe the promises of Scripture.

 

[JLB]

That's the point. The branch was removed from service.

Unfortunately for you, and your "theory", Jesus doesn't say taken away or removed from service, He says taken away from Him.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;


Case Closed.


OSAS -



JLB

 

[Edward]

The error here is to assume that one must continually believe in order to continually be saved. Yet the aorist tense refutes such a notion.


This verse does NOT support your opinion above. You've certainly not shown that it does.


Once again, to "hold fast" means to possess, which is eternal life. And those who have been given eternal life by Jesus WILL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus promised in John 10:28.

Yet you persist to claim that one who has believed and has been given eternal life may well experience the second death, or the lake of fire, which suggests that your view doesn't believe the promise that Jesus made in John 10:28.

But I do believe what He said. Completely.

You could liken it to getting a real good job. You're hired. Now what? go home and never check in? Never make it to a job site? The checks wont just keep coming.

Jesus will say to some, I never knew you. How would you answer that?

 

[JLB]

No, but they are still saved.

Because WHEN they believed, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit, the GUARANTEE of our inheritance and WHEN they believed, they received eternal life and therefore they WILL NEVER PERISH.

I believe the promises of Scripture.

Do those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, still believe?

You just said No.

Which means you are teaching us to disregard the condition that is set forth throughout the new testament for salvation, which is to believe.

If the people who believe for a while then no longer believe, do not believe, then how can they be saved if they don't believe.

The promise of never perishing is to those who believe.


I think you are confused.

Maybe you should go and think about what you are saying, and come back and rephrase it, because we know those who do not believe, are not promised eternal life.


Those who teach universal reconciliation, teach this nonsense.


Is that what you have been promoting, all this time?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"That's the point. The branch was removed from service."

Unfortunately for you, and your "theory", Jesus doesn't say taken away or removed from service, He says taken away from Him.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;


Case Closed.

Except you've ADDED to Scripture. Just review your own words: "He says taken away FROM HIM", and then you quote the verse, where there is NO "from Him".

I've already explained what all farmers know about non producing branches.

Your disagreement with my explanation doesn't equal refutation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, still believe?

You just said No.

Thanks for noticing.

Which means you are teaching us to disregard the condition that is set forth throughout the new testament for salvation, which is to believe.

No, you're just trying to put phony words in my mouth.

In order to HAVE salvation, one MUST believe. That is exactly what Paul told the curious jailer. And since Paul used the aorist tense for "believe", the curious jailer would be saved for believing in a point in time.

Please address the aorist tense use of "believe" and explain how one MUST continually believe in order to continually be saved, given both Paul's and Jesus' use of the aorist tense.

If the people who believe for a while then no longer believe, do not believe, then how can they be saved if they don't believe.

Simple. OSAS.

Simple. Eternal life is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 with 11:29

Simple. Those who believe are given the gift of eternal life, and WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

The promise of never perishing is to those who believe.

Aorist tense refutes your abuse of the present tense.

I think you are confused.

Doesn't matter. What matters is what the Bible SAYS. Which you seem to be unaware of.

Maybe you should go and think about what you are saying, and come back and rephrase it, because we know those who do not believe, are not promised eternal life.

I agree.

Those who teach universal reconciliation, teach this nonsense.

What do you make of 2 Cor 5:19?
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

To whom did God reconcile to Himself?
What did He not count against men?

Care to reconsider your claim?

 

[Edward]

I said this:
"The error here is to assume that one must continually believe in order to continually be saved. Yet the aorist tense refutes such a notion."

I see. It seems your view of salvation is "likened to having a job and getting paid". Is that correct? If so, that isn't even close to being saved by grace through faith.

In your hypothetical job, is your wage from grace or because your boss actually owes you for your work?

Well, don't worry; Paul actually answered that question:
Rom 4:4-5
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Seems clear enough. For those who work, their wages are an obligation from the boss.

Your view seems nothing more than just another version of a works-based system of salvation. And unbiblical.



Jesus will say to some, I never knew you. How would you answer that?

[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? I didn't say works based salvation and you know it. I can't make up my mind if you would maliciously twist my words like that or if you are really that dumb.

 

[Jim Parker]

Your response here is the FIRST response to my post #259, so your claim that you 'already did' is false.

You have asked the same question over and over in multiple threads and I have posted the scripture multiple times.
Please don't pretend you never saw them.

 

[JLB]

I didn't say works based salvation and you know it.

He doesn't care if you said it or not, he will say whatever he can to try and stop the truth from being proclaimed.


That is his assignment.
That is why he is hear.
He speaks from his own resources.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Except you've ADDED to Scripture. Just review your own words: "He says taken away FROM HIM", and then you quote the verse, where there is NO "from Him".

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2a

Yes from Him.

Him is Christ.
The people are in Him.
They are taken away, and are no longer in Him.

Those who do not remain "in Him" are gathered up and cast into the fire and are burned.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

The parable of the vineyard speaks of Israel, not the Church, the body of Christ. Isaiah 5:1-4. How is it possible to connect the believer to the parable of vineyard? Believers since the crucifixion of Christ are part of his body and his espoused bride, not part of his earthly kingdom.

The branches that are "cut off " and cast in the fire, are still useful. They were used to warm in the winter and for cooking purposes.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this in summarizing from Rom 4:4,5:
"Seems clear enough. For those who work, their wages are an obligation from the boss.

Your view seems nothing more than just another version of a works-based system of salvation. And unbiblical.

Jesus will say to some, I never knew you. How would you answer that?"

Are you serious? I didn't say works based salvation and you know it.

Did I say that you said your view is? No. Please read what I did say; "your view SEEMS NOTHING MORE than just another version of a works-based system of salvation".

I am explaining how your view comes across. I made NO COMMENT about what you actually said. But what you said DOES come across as a works-based system of salvation.

I can't make up my mind if you would maliciously twist my words like that or if you are really that dumb.

Since I NEVER even quoted your words, there is no way I could have twisted them.

As to making up your mind about WHO is really dumb, I think the forum will not have a problem doing that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The branches that are "cut off " and cast in the fire, are still useful. They were used to warm in the winter and for cooking purposes.

The point is, the cut off branches do not have the life of the vine in them.
A branch can't be disconnected from the vine and still have the life of the vine in it as hyper-grace OSAS is trying to insist. At least traditional OSAS has believing as the continuing requirement for salvation. That argument I can respect. But I have zero respect for an argument that says a dead, cut off branch is still 'really' still alive.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As to making up your mind about WHO is really dumb, I think the forum will not have a problem doing that.

Edward's one of the smartest dudes around here.

What's dumb is thinking a dead, cut off branch still has the life of the vine in it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Your response here is the FIRST response to my post #259, so your claim that you 'already did' is false."

You have asked the same question over and over in multiple threads and I have posted the scripture multiple times.

This isn't about "multiple threads". It's only about this particular thread. I would never expect anyone to remember everything I have posted in any other thread, or even what I posted in this particular thread pages ago.

My goal is to communicate, so when someone asks a question that I've answered some time ago, I have no problem repeating the answer.

But it seems some do have a problem wanting to communicate their views.

If there is reluctance in giving an answer, just say so, and I'll move on.

Please don't pretend you never saw them.

Please don't assume that I can remember anything you've posted in these "multiple threads".

If there is no interest in answering, just say so and I'll move on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please address the aorist tense use of "believe" and explain how one MUST continually believe in order to continually be saved, given both Paul's and Jesus' use of the aorist tense.

Who here is arguing that non-OSAS means you aren't saved the moment you believe????
Obviously, for a person to lose their salvation they had to have had it in the first place--when they first believed.
Non-OSAS says you ARE PRESENTLY SAVED if you are presently believing. It does not say you are not saved when you first believed.

Jesus and Paul used the present tense when speaking of salvation. And that is the exact truth that you discard. You're not rightly dividing the word of God (again) when you only talk about the aorist tense of believing but ignore the present tense of believing for salvation that the scriptures use. Example:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved (present tense), if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold, underline and parenthesis mine)