Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[JLB]

The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. Which agrees with the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• The Christian who lives their life according to the flesh, manifesting it's sinful desires, will receive the wages thereof, which is death.

• Those who live as a slave to God, and have their fruit unto holiness, which comes from the life of Christ within, will inherit eternal life.

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6-7



JLB

 

[chessman]

What on earth does this language of yours mean: 'someone's conscious saved them, then rejecting their conscious could un-save them'? I do wish you would write with meaning. That statement is meaningless when you write about 'conscious' in this way.

It's the conclusion from your view of the verse (with an autocorrect typo). That's why it doesn't make sense.

Paul said:

1 Timothy 1:19b (ESV) By rejecting ____, some have made shipwreck of their faith, ​

If you would use your NT Greek skills and answer the question, you should see that your conclusion makes no sense.

What did they reject?

It's a simple question and an irrefutable answer. They rejected their conscience (sorry for the typo).

People's conscience do not save them.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The problem with your claim is that it is not supported by the Bible. It is Jesus Christ, and His work alone which guarantees eternal life to the believer."

How does one access this work of Jesus Christ, which gives us eternal life?
JLB

The Bible answers this quite plainly and directly.

Believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life accesses the work of Jesus Christ. Jesus said so Himself in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 10:28, and 11:25-26.

And Paul reiterated what Jesus said in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (have eternal life).

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. Which agrees with the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29."

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• The Christian who lives their life according to the flesh, manifesting it's sinful desires, will receive the wages thereof, which is death.

• Those who live as a slave to God, and have their fruit unto holiness, which comes from the life of Christ within, will inherit eternal life.

• So, it seems your soteriology is that one who sins gets eternal death from Rom 6:22? But Jesus Christ died for all sins, so how would that be possible?

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6-7
JLB

So? Please explain verses quoted. I have no idea how you're taking them. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

The Bible answers this quite plainly and directly.

Believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life accesses the work of Jesus Christ. Jesus said so Himself in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 10:28, and 11:25-26.

Ok then those who are "in Him", have come to be "in Him", because the believe, thus the term believers.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

If these "believers" are removed from being "in Christ", then please explain how they still have the eternal life which only comes from being "in Him"?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. Which agrees with the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29."

Unfortunately for your "theory" Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 say no such thing, which is why you didn't post the actual scripture.

This is just your opinion.

So? Please explain verses quoted. I have no idea how you're taking them. Thanks.

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6-7


Those who are justified, are heirs according to the hope of eternal life, which comes in the end, to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

To those who have their unto holiness.

...you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok then those who are "in Him", have come to be "in Him", because the believe, thus the term believers.

OK, and Eph 1;13, 14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 all say that this sealing is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

So please explain your view that some believers, because of lifestyle, many not be redeemed on that day? It's a guarantee based on being sealed, not on anything else.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

If these "believers" are removed from being "in Christ", then please explain how they still have the eternal life which only comes from being "in Him"?
JLB

This has been explained so many times, it's clear to me that reception has been rejected.

John 15:1-6 is about fruit bearing, not about how to hold onto to one's salvation. No one has proven that it is about holding on to salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for your "theory" Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 say no such thing, which is why you didn't post the actual scripture.

What would be my "theory" regarding those 2 verses? Please explain.

It is only a theory that eternal life is a gift of God?
Is it only a theory that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Please advise.

This is just your opinion.

No, that would be your opinion.

I've given plainly worded Scripture that is irrefutable.

Those who are justified, are heirs according to the hope of eternal life, which comes in the end, to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

To those who have their unto holiness.

...you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23
JLB

Quoting from Rom 2:6-8 doesn't help your argument one bit, because those who have read further into Romans find that Paul made crystal clear that no one is declared righteous by observing the Law in Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

So it's clear that no human can or has ever fulfilled Rom 2:6-8. Not to mention the myriad verses that teach that eternal life is by faith.

 

[OzSpen]

The aorist tense generally means "a point in time action" with no thought to any time element.

You have admitted that you have never taken a course in NT Greek. Here you want to tell me what the Greek aorist tense means but you don't have a grammatical understanding of these nuances of the aorist tense:

• Constative aorist;
• Ingressive aorist;
• Culminative aorist;
• Gnomic aorist;
• Epistolary aorist, and
  
• Dramatic aorist.

Telling me what the aorist tense means when you have no knowledge of the aorist meanings is as meaningful as me, a non-mechanic, telling a car mechanic how to fix a broken down vehicle.

I urge you to quit using regurgitated Greek grammar that you have obtained from a secondary source, without knowledge of what you are doing.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Why didn't you address the indicative mood of the present tense?

I do, when there is need to. I did not consider it a necessary part of the discussion. The indicative is the mood of declaration that denotes a simple assertion or interrogation. It indicates certainty. It is significant for a simple fact, either stated or about which there has been an inquiry.

The indicate mood of the present tense is certain that one needs to continue to believe to be saved (e.g. John 5:24 ESV; John 10:28 ESV). The indicative mood declares, asserts and affirms the necessity of continuing to believe to be saved.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear this up.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The problem with your claim is that it is not supported by the Bible. It is Jesus Christ, and His work alone which guarantees eternal life to the believer.

Regardless of all the faulty claims from John 10:27, v.28 is clear about the SOLE CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING.

The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. Which agrees with the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

This is another one of your straw man fallacies against me. It is fallacious reasoning. We cannot have a reasonable conversation about the issues when you engage in this kind of diversionary tactic.

It is a straw man because you are attacking a distorted version of my position. It is not an attack on my position but is an attack on this kind of view of me:

View attachment 11146

You could just as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of me to hurt me.

Bye, bye
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It's the conclusion from your view of the verse (with an autocorrect typo). That's why it doesn't make sense.

Paul said:

1 Timothy 1:19b (ESV) By rejecting ____, some have made shipwreck of their faith, ​

If you would use your NT Greek skills and answer the question, you should see that your conclusion makes no sense.

What did they reject?

It's a simple question and an irrefutable answer. They rejected their conscience (sorry for the typo).

People's conscience do not save them.

They still ended up by shipwrecking their faith. Yes, shipwrecking the faith to make it of no use any more:

Maheno wreck (Fraser Island, Qld)

Try becoming a Christian without the conscience fine-tuned to God's tuning!

I've given up providing biblical evidence to counter your view.

Bye, bye,
Oz

 

[Kidron]

Ive noted that when the student of the greek text(s) does not like what the bible has to say, they will omit the bible where it opposes their theological opinion, by claiming the "superiority of the greek texts".. is the reason they do so.
This is a dangerous mistake, not only for the perpetrator, but also for anyone who would listen to them and be fooled by them.

And what is the KEY you use to discover who are the absolute worst Pastors, Preachers, Evangelists, Teachers, TV Ministers. ??
Its very easy.
All you have to do is notice if they constantly correct the Bible with the greek text(s) OR their opinion.
When you find these types.......go directly to another church or flip the channel.
Do not sit under the leadership of a habitual bible corrector....as this person is subverted to the degree that they actually think that they have the authority to correct the word of God using a greek text(s) and their self righteous opinion.
Get away from them and never look back.

 

[OzSpen]

Ive noted that when the student of the greek text(s) does not like what the bible has to say, they will omit the bible where it opposes their theological opinion, by claiming the "superiority of the greek texts".. is the reason they do so.
This is a dangerous mistake, not only for the perpetrator, but also for anyone who would listen to them and be fooled by them.

And what is the KEY you use to discover who are the absolute worst Pastors, Preachers, Evangelists, Teachers, TV Ministers. ??
Its very easy.
All you have to do is notice if they constantly correct the Bible with the greek text(s) OR their opinion.
When you find these types.......go directly to another church or flip the channel.
Do not sit under the leadership of a habitual bible corrector....as this person is subverted to the degree that they actually think that they have the authority to correct the word of God using a greek text(s) and their self righteous opinion.
Get away from them and never look back.

Are you accusing me of doing this?

 

[JLB]

What would be my "theory" regarding those 2 verses? Please explain.

It is only a theory that eternal life is a gift of God?
Is it only a theory that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Please advise.

I am specifically quoting your post from 164, which says

"The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. Which agrees with the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29."

A theory is something that is unsubstantiated, as your above opinion is.


Those who are "in Him", have come to be "in Him", because the believe, thus the term believers.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

If these "believers" are removed from being "in Christ", then please explain how they still have the eternal life which only comes from being "in Him"?


JLB

 

[chessman]

They still ended up by shipwrecking their faith.

I never said or suggested "their faith" didn't end up shipwrecked. What's not in the passage, however, is that they made shipwreck "the faith". That is "the faith" stewarded by God.

It was their own conscience remember ('their faith', so-to-speak) they rejected, not Jesus or "the faith" that indwells. That was/is my point about the passage. And it's a valid point. That is the fundamental difference between the way I view salvation as universally described in the Bible and that of most anti-OSAS arguments.

Yes, shipwrecking the faith to make it of no use any more:

I can assure you, they did not shipwreck "the faith", nor is that what Paul said. "The faith" is very much still, to this day, sailing along just fine under the stewardship of God. "Their faith", however, not so much.

Look at the precision of Paul's description of saving faith. "The faith", that saved Timothy dwelled in his grandmother, mother (Paul, me, you, etc.) before it ever made it to Timothy (or you or me). Timothy's own conscience didn't save Timothy, the indwelling of God (the faith) did.

2 Timothy 1:5-7 (NASB) For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well. For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. ​

"The faith" is a gift. Hymenaeus and Alexander 's faith is shipwrecked, not "the faith". And, as I said, their faith (their conscience) never saved them in the first place.

Try becoming a Christian without the conscience fine-tuned to God's tuning!

Is our conscience required to be perfectly tuned before "becoming a Christian" on your view? Again, there's the fundamental difference between my view of salvation and yours. I am certain, (100%) that Christ came to save people who's consciences are NOT finely tuned.

1 Timothy 1:14-15, 19-20 (NASB) and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.
​

In regard to "their faith" your beached boat picture is spot on.

In regard to "the faith" neither the beached boat nor the sailing boat pictures come close to the Truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have admitted that you have never taken a course in NT Greek. Here you want to tell me what the Greek aorist tense means but you don't have a grammatical understanding of these nuances of the aorist tense:

• Constative aorist;
• Ingressive aorist;
• Culminative aorist;
• Gnomic aorist;
• Epistolary aorist, and
  
• Dramatic aorist.

Telling me what the aorist tense means when you have no knowledge of the aorist meanings is as meaningful as me, a non-mechanic, telling a car mechanic how to fix a broken down vehicle.

All of these aorists can be easily looked up in my Greek grammar by Dan Wallace. So your point is moot.

What I'd still like to see is your explanation of the present indicative and what that means from your training.

I urge you to quit using regurgitated Greek grammar that you have obtained from a secondary source, without knowledge of what you are doing.

Oz

Nonsense. Your own training involved "using regurgitated Greek grammar".

So again, what about the present indicative?

 

[FreeGrace]

I do, when there is need to. I did not consider it a necessary part of the discussion.

Of course you'd not see it as necessary because it refutes all your claims about the "present tense".

The indicative is the mood of declaration that denotes a simple assertion or interrogation. It indicates certainty. It is significant for a simple fact, either stated or about which there has been an inquiry.

The indicate mood of the present tense is certain that one needs to continue to believe to be saved (e.g. John 5:24 ESV; John 10:28 ESV).

I've already given "the regurgitated Greek grammar" of the present indicative, which does NOT indicate "continue to believe to be saved" as is being falsely claimed.

The indicative mood declares, asserts and affirms the necessity of continuing to believe to be saved.

I'll just "regurgitate" what the scholar Daniel Wallace says about the present tense in the indicative mood:
"With reference to aspect, the pressent tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from the inside of the event, without special regard for beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense's portrayal of an event "focuses on its development or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view."

Then he said this:
"With reference to time, the present indicative is usually present time, but it may be other than or broader than the present time on occasion (eg, with historical present and gnomic present respectively)."

These comments are on p.514 of Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics.

So, you're going to have to prove when the indicative mood indicates more than just present time, without special regard for beginning or end, which is your claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is another one of your straw man fallacies against me. It is fallacious reasoning. We cannot have a reasonable conversation about the issues when you engage in this kind of diversionary tactic.

The truth is never a "diversionary tactic".

I've shown that the sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to have eternal life. No one has yet shown from Scripture that eternal life can be lost or taken away. In fact, Romans teaches that eternal life is a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What would be my "theory" regarding those 2 verses? Please explain.

It is only a theory that eternal life is a gift of God?
Is it only a theory that God's gifts are irrevocable?

Please advise."

I am specifically quoting your post from 164, which says
""The sole condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. Which agrees with the FACT that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29.""

A theory is something that is unsubstantiated, as your above opinion is.

All I see here is another unsubstantiated opinion by you. You've not shown that either of my statements above were a theory. Both are totally substantiated from Scripture.

If these "believers" are removed from being "in Christ", then please explain how they still have the eternal life which only comes from being "in Him"?
JLB

The Scripture is quite clear about the sealing with the Holy Spirit for all believers, which the ToS fully agrees with.

Therefore, no believer can be removed from being "in Christ". Eph 1;13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do not allow for such a theory.