Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[Jim Parker]

Bye, bye,
Oz

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.' Therefore your sin remains."

There was a song in the 60s or 70s which contained the line, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Those who so adamantly defend the sand castle of "free" salvation are among those.

The OT foreshadowed the NT. Those who kept the covenant would be blesses and those who did not would be cursed (Deut 28) even though none of them did anything that merited God's response in making them His chosen people; in fact, it was quite the opposite case. (Deut 9:4-6) They were blesses IF they kept His word.

In the NT, Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15) and, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me". (Jhn 14:23-24) And: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46)

Scripture says: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2Pe 1:10-11) [ "These things" are: faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. (1:5-67)]
The entrance into the Kingdom of God will be supplied IF one does "these things".

Grace is free because God IS gracious; it's His mode of operation. None of us can earn eternal life because we have all sinned and earned death (R0 3:23) but all are justified freely through His grace. (24) However, the fact that God gives everyone the opportunity to believe and receive eternal life is not a license to continue in our habitual sinful manner of living.

Jesus preached saying repent AND believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15) those are two separate actions: (1) repenting and (2) believing. Contrary to the preaching of pop-Christianity, repent does not only mean to change one's mind; it includes changing ones way of life, the way we act and talk. It is changing one's mode of life from acting in response to the lusts of the flesh to producing the fruit of the spirit. That requires effort. IF we do not exert the effort to produce the fruit, the Father will remove us from the body of Christ; we will wither and die and be cast into the fire. (John 15)

Grace is free. Passing from this life into eternal life will require that you persevere in doing God's will.
Ro 2:6-7 “(God) will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;"


Iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.' Therefore your sin remains."

There was a song in the 60s or 70s which contained the line, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Those who so adamantly defend the sand castle of "free" salvation are among those.

The OT foreshadowed the NT. Those who kept the covenant would be blesses and those who did not would be cursed (Deut 28) even though none of them did anything that merited God's response in making them His chosen people; in fact, it was quite the opposite case. (Deut 9:4-6) They were blesses IF they kept His word.

In the NT, Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15) and, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me". (Jhn 14:23-24) And: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46)

Scripture says: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2Pe 1:10-11) [ "These things" are: faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. (1:5-67)]
The entrance into the Kingdom of God will be supplied IF one does "these things".

Grace is free because God IS gracious; it's His mode of operation. None of us can earn eternal life because we have all sinned and earned death (R0 3:23) but all are justified freely through His grace. (24) However, the fact that God gives everyone the opportunity to believe and receive eternal life is not a license to continue in our habitual sinful manner of living.

Jesus preached saying repent AND believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15) those are two separate actions: (1) repenting and (2) believing. Contrary to the preaching of pop-Christianity, repent does not only mean to change one's mind; it includes changing ones way of life, the way we act and talk. It is changing one's mode of life from acting in response to the lusts of the flesh to producing the fruit of the spirit. That requires effort. IF we do not exert the effort to produce the fruit, the Father will remove us from the body of Christ; we will wither and die and be cast into the fire. (John 15)

Except for this claim above, "There was a song in the 60s or 70s which contained the line, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Those who so adamantly defend the sand castle of "free" salvation are among those.", I agree with all this.

At least there is honesty in the claim that salvation is not free in your view. And the Bible contradicts that notion thoroughly.

Grace is free. Passing from this life into eternal life will require that you persevere in doing God's will.

So then, eternal life is not free. It must be earned, from what you've just posted.

I strongly disagree with this.

Eternal life is a free gift of God, per Rom 6:23. God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. The conclusion is very obvious for everyone whose eyes are open.

Ro 2:6-7 “(God) will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;"
Iakov the fool

And Paul very clearly indicated that no one will be justified (saved) by observing the Law.

The aim of Rom 2:6-7 was to the legalists who thought they could earn God's salvation. 2:1 describes them as "you who pass judgment on someone else". These legalists were the "better than thou's" of the day. Paul indicated that one must continue in "doing good" in order to have eternal life, and then PROVED that no one has ever done that.
3:9 "all are under sin"
3:23 "for all have sinned"

Such a pronouncement PROVES that no one has nor can "continue in doing good" and therefore receive eternal life.

You've acknowledged God's grace is free out of one side of your mouth, then out of the other side of your mouth claim that salvation is NOT free, but is EARNED by continuance in doing good.

 

[Jim Parker]

So then, eternal life is not free. It must be earned, from what you've just posted.

What I posted is in total agreement with what Jesus said.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV):
the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
What I posted is in total agreement with what Paul said.
Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
You seem to have a problem understanding those very specific and clear words of scripture.

I strongly disagree with this.

Then you disagree with the word of God.

And Paul very clearly indicated that no one will be justified (saved) by observing the Law.

I never said anyone was justified, saved, or given eternal life by observing the law.
I never said anyone was required to keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved .
What are you talking about?

The aim of Rom 2:6-7 was to the legalists who thought they could earn God's salvation.

That is utter and complete nonsense. I don't understand how anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the English language could possibly make such a ridiculously absurd statement.
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
What does that have to do with keeping the Law???
NOTHING!

You've acknowledged God's grace is free out of one side of your mouth, then out of the other side of your mouth claim that salvation is NOT free, but is EARNED by continuance in doing good.

Grace and salvation are not the same thing.
Get a dictionary.
And I NEVER said that salvation was earned.
That is a figment of your imagination and an artifact of your lack of understanding of plain English.

 

[OzSpen]

Grace is free. Passing from this life into eternal life will require that you persevere in doing God's will.
Ro 2:6-7 “(God) will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;"

Well stated, Jim.

 

[Sparkey]

What is that? Sharks in the tornado? We should make a movie, right?

Where comes the whirlwind? It is Confusion generated.
Any entertainment of two or more opposing concepts (without assigning a proper priority significance) contributes to whirlwind potential energy. We know the preservation of energy clause - where it can neither be created or destroyed? Yeah, we know without knowing, like that parable is still outside of our reach and we continue bounding toward destruction all the while pouring ourselves, our vital parts, into that feeding frenzy.

Who can focus on the Prince of Peace while biting others in the backside?
Maybe we should try to simplify? To look for small steps that may be taken (together).

There was once an old married couple who loved to bicker and fight and argue. It appeared to be some kind of twisted 'love language' of their hearts. One would say, "North" and the other would go South. Light was called darkness, the moon called 'the sun,' and it wasn't because of the "Taming of the Shrew" Shakespeare quote either. One would want to take the grandkids on a walk to the park and the other would heartily agree in the first second and want to tag along. But, and for them, a second was a very. very long time. They would get out the door and cross down the garden path toward the gate and right there, as they were about to depart their private property and join the public area, it would happened (again).

One would say, "The kids are thirsty," and look longingly toward the beach where he or she (it doesn't matter who started it -->they so oft forgot and compliment themselves in the doing because it does NOT, really does not matter in the least) knew there were many refreshment stands available for their choosing. Which one? Neither would that matter, but the point was the point. We can't go to the park when we need to go to beach -AND- we can't go to the beach when we need to go to the park. That's common sense and known to all.

One would say, "The playground is over this way," and without waiting for any semblance of understanding on the part of the other, proceed in an opposite direction. Each kept one kid, as if they would win by tearing them apart. The wisdom of Solomon was not heard. The conjoined -twin children both began to cry. They were being pulled apart! Both parents dutifully mourned their birth - how could God let such a thing happen. That was the one thing they could be agreed on. Nothing else.

"Wait," one cries out, joining their voice to the wailing sound of both the squalling grand-kids, who were utterly confused by actions observed (facts) as seen through the lens of supposed loved-ones. But mostly? They got caught in the emotional wreckage from the self-inflicted tug-o-war and constant battle.

"Please come with me, THIS WAY; the kids are thirsty," --but the sound pleading fell on deaf ears. How can two walk together if there is no agreement? WE should make that saying into a proverb, right? Where my the time-travel machine when I want it? Huh? We could go back and speak to a minor prophet or two and tell them to jot it down.

Amos! Come Amos. We got a job for you. We like the number 3 so if you ever get into the third verse of the third chapter, make a note, please? Thank you. No worries about hiding the truth for you. Those who don't know Him won't know His meaning. So speak plain and no need to muddy, not like you would, in any case.​

+++++++++++

Can we agree about the Faith Chapter (called Hebrews, chapter 11) as a good start place? Seems to be common ground. Our mutual property. We would start and then proceed not further until beckoned by the Holy Spirit to come. As it stands, we are not fit for human consumption and need FDA labels on our foreheads. We would not continue on to chapter 12 and the "cloud of witnesses" until there is some kind of agreement about faith, without which none are saved. WE could stay there. Where we belong. Then emerge sometime next spring, closer to the hibernation's end.

WE could... but know this: we are commanded to be wary [in these last days] and to not fall asleep as we wait for Master. Those who must will sleep at their own peril. But then, we already know this. Somewhere we also know that knowledge does not and can not save. It merely puffeth.

O Smoker! quit the puffeth and henceforth abide in faith.

~SH

(( so ends this commercial interruption brought to you by our Sponsor. ))

 

[Sparkey]

Convict me, Lord. Stop me dead in my tracks, that I may live. I need your Spirit and have failed utterly.
Come, Holy Spirit. You are my need. You and You alone. Take Your throne.
-amen

 

[Jim Parker]

What is that? Sharks in the tornado? We should make a movie, right?

Where comes the whirlwind? It is Confusion generated.
Any entertainment of two or more opposing concepts (without assigning a proper priority significance) contributes to whirlwind potential energy. We know the preservation of energy clause - where it can neither be created or destroyed? Yeah, we know without knowing, like that parable is still outside of our reach and we continue bounding toward destruction all the while pouring ourselves, our vital parts, into that feeding frenzy.

Who can focus on the Prince of Peace while biting others in the backside?
Maybe we should try to simplify? To look for small steps that may be taken (together).

There was once an old married couple who loved to bicker and fight and argue. It appeared to be some kind of twisted 'love language' of their hearts. One would say, "North" and the other would go South. Light was called darkness, the moon called 'the sun,' and it wasn't because of the "Taming of the Shrew" Shakespeare quote either. One would want to take the grandkids on a walk to the park and the other would heartily agree in the first second and want to tag along. But, and for them, a second was a very. very long time. They would get out the door and cross down the garden path toward the gate and right there, as they were about to depart their private property and join the public area, it would happened (again).

One would say, "The kids are thirsty," and look longingly toward the beach where he or she (it doesn't matter who started it -->they so oft forgot and compliment themselves in the doing because it does NOT, really does not matter in the least) knew there were many refreshment stands available for their choosing. Which one? Neither would that matter, but the point was the point. We can't go to the park when we need to go to beach -AND- we can't go to the beach when we need to go to the park. That's common sense and known to all.

One would say, "The playground is over this way," and without waiting for any semblance of understanding on the part of the other, proceed in an opposite direction. Each kept one kid, as if they would win by tearing them apart. The wisdom of Solomon was not heard. The conjoined -twin children both began to cry. They were being pulled apart! Both parents dutifully mourned their birth - how could God let such a thing happen. That was the one thing they could be agreed on. Nothing else.

"Wait," one cries out, joining their voice to the wailing sound of both the squalling grand-kids, who were utterly confused by actions observed (facts) as seen through the lens of supposed loved-ones. But mostly? They got caught in the emotional wreckage from the self-inflicted tug-o-war and constant battle.

"Please come with me, THIS WAY; the kids are thirsty," --but the sound pleading fell on deaf ears. How can two walk together if there is no agreement? WE should make that saying into a proverb, right? Where my the time-travel machine when I want it? Huh? We could go back and speak to a minor prophet or two and tell them to jot it down.

Amos! Come Amos. We got a job for you. We like the number 3 so if you ever get into the third verse of the third chapter, make a note, please? Thank you. No worries about hiding the truth for you. Those who don't know Him won't know His meaning. So speak plain and no need to muddy, not like you would, in any case.​

+++++++++++

Can we agree about the Faith Chapter (called Hebrews, chapter 11) as a good start place? Seems to be common ground. Our mutual property. We would start and then proceed not further until beckoned by the Holy Spirit to come. As it stands, we are not fit for human consumption and need FDA labels on our foreheads. We would not continue on to chapter 12 and the "cloud of witnesses" until there is some kind of agreement about faith, without which none are saved. WE could stay there. Where we belong. Then emerge sometime next spring, closer to the hibernation's end.

WE could... but know this: we are commanded to be wary [in these last days] and to not fall asleep as we wait for Master. Those who must will sleep at their own peril. But then, we already know this. Somewhere we also know that knowledge does not and can not save. It merely puffeth.

O Smoker! quit the puffeth and henceforth abide in faith.

~SH
(( so ends this commercial interruption brought to you by our Sponsor. ))

huh?

 

[Sparkey]

huh?

Would you care to expand and unpack your single word response, please?

If no, then you will understand, neither will I unpack nor expand my 805 wordcount to you.

 

[JLB]

That is utter and complete nonsense. I don't understand how anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the English language could possibly make such a ridiculously absurd statement.
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
What does that have to do with keeping the Law???
NOTHING!

:amen

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So then, eternal life is not free. It must be earned, from what you've just posted."

What I posted is in total agreement with what Jesus said.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV):
the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
What I posted is in total agreement with what Paul said.
Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
You seem to have a problem understanding those very specific and clear words of scripture.

Then you disagree with the word of God.

Absolutely not. I totally disagree with your "interpretation" of certain verses.

I never said anyone was justified, saved, or given eternal life by observing the law.
I never said anyone was required to keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved .
What are you talking about?

I'm talking about your abuse of Rom 2:6-8.

That is utter and complete nonsense. I don't understand how anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the English language could possibly make such a ridiculously absurd statement.
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
What does that have to do with keeping the Law???
NOTHING!

So observing the Law isn't "doing good" then?? So, just what is observing the Law, then? Doing badly??

Grace and salvation are not the same thing.
Get a dictionary.

I never said they were. I quoted Scripture that says that we are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

 

[smaller]

Grace and salvation are not the same thing.
Get a dictionary.

That's very true. The Protestant version of Grace and the orthodox version of Grace are 2 entirely different words.

Grace in the orthodox sight is delivered through "means." Huge difference to what Grace is in most of Protestantism, which is largely/for the most part "entirely unmerited" and apart from being delivered through the means (sacraments) of the church.

And I NEVER said that salvation was earned.
That is a figment of your imagination and an artifact of your lack of understanding of plain English.

When someone in orthodoxy claims they are saved by Grace, that really means they are saved by participation in the "means" of the church. That term has no relativity to Protestant Grace whatsoever.

That little glitch in terms allows you to double deal the topic matter, claiming on one hand that believers are saved by Grace but cannot be saved without works. Which to Protestants is double dealing, trying to play it both ways.

IF you would clarify this HUGE difference in understandings you'd know why your claims sound so ODD in Protestant ears, because of this difference in terms.

Protestants take Paul's delivery of the term, Grace, over the terms of sacerdotal orthodoxy, which twisted the same term, Grace, beyond all recognition by adding works to it to achieve salvation, which Paul DID NOT DO:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

That's part of the difficulty when catholic orthodoxy plays it's terms. There is an entirely different language being spoken than what is actually in the Bible.

When Protestants FINALLY got their hands on the Bible a great majority said, HEY, HOLD ON A SECOND...it really doesn't say what YOU say it says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That little glitch in terms allows you to double deal the topic matter, claiming on one hand that believers are saved by Grace but cannot be saved without works. Which to Protestants is double dealing, trying to play it both ways.

Wait, hold on.
I'm Protestant and I believe that the believer is justified entirely on the basis of faith in Christ to be the acceptable propitiation (the turning away of the wrath of God) for our sins--completely and entirely at the moment of belief, with no requirement or restriction to first perform a rite (Ephesians 1:13 NASB, Acts 10:44 NASB). But the thing that differentiates me from the vast majority of Protestants is that if the faith that solicits God's justification entirely all by itself is not a genuine faith if that faith does not then lead a person into a life of increasing works of righteousness displayed in the fruit of the Spirit. Paul says it this way: The faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that loves--not does nothing.

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB bold mine)

That's not a works gospel. Faith does the justifying all by itself. But the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that changes a person into a new creation who then grows up into the righteous qualities of Jesus Christ, summarized in godly love for others. If ones 'faith' is not doing that, they need to examine to see if they really have the Holy Spirit inside of them in a legitimate salvation experience:

5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB)

Contrary to hyper/free grace teaching, you can't arrive at the Judgment with no evidence of the grace of God in your works and expect to be saved. Jesus made it very clear that faith in Him is measured by your character expressed in what you do:

"31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 18:31-46 NASB)

James says the same thing:

"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14 NASB bold mine)

The answer to the rhetorical question being, 'no', of course. The person who thinks their works-less, do-nothing, hyper-grace 'faith' is going to save them on the Day of Wrath, well, they've got a very harsh wake up call coming. But it will be too late then. Repent now while you still can. Seek the infilling of God's Holy Spirit to move you to works of righteousness in a deep and sincere love for Him and His people, the proof of your faith (Philippians 2:15 NASB). God will remember your love and the work you do for Him and His people, and through that faith and perseverance of faith, you will inherit the promises at the resurrection:

"10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB bold and underline and parenthesis mine)

 

[smaller]

Wait, hold on.
I'm Protestant and I believe that the believer is justified entirely on the basis of faith in Christ to be the acceptable propitiation (the turning away of the wrath of God) for our sins--completely and entirely at the moment of belief, with no requirement or restriction to first perform a rite (Ephesians 1:13 NASB, Acts 10:44 NASB). But the thing that differentiates me from the vast majority of Protestants is that if the faith that solicits God's justification entirely all by itself is not a genuine faith if that faith does not then lead a person into a life of increasing works of righteousness displayed in the fruit of the Spirit. Paul says it this way: The faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that loves--not does nothing.

I'm not saying there are not protestants that play the same double dealing game Jethro. The whole lot of them are generally termed "legalists" or "works salvation" sects. Obviously you are in a works based salvation sect.

That's not a works gospel. Faith does the justifying all by itself. But the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that changes a person into a new creation who then grows up into the righteous qualities of Jesus Christ. If ones 'faith' is not doing that, they need to examine to see if they really have the Holy Spirit inside of them in a legitimate salvation experience

You might as well get to the bottom line Jethro. No use beating around the bush with it. In all "works based" or "legalist" sects works must be present for salvation.

Contrary to hyper/free grace teaching, you can't arrive at the Judgment with no evidence of the grace of God in your works and expect to be saved. Jesus made it very clear that faith in Him is measured by your character expressed in what you do:

That is the same form of spin doctoring that the works salvation orthodox put on this subject Jethro. Not all that much difference, except in their world you'd be potentially (or outright depending on the spin doctor) condemned because you're not participating in "Grace" through "their means."

That's why these terms have to be examined, to see 'what language' is being attached to the terms.

It's also why most of Protestantism went with the 5 solas rather than the entirely different language the orthodox dreamed up. But granted, there are some protestant/orthodox hybrids, such as the Missouri Synod Lutherans and a lot of charismatic sects that are likewise works-legalists/reinvented Grace terms adherents.

The answer to the rhetorical question being, 'no', of course. The person who thinks their works-less, do-nothing, hyper-grace 'faith' is going to save them on the Day of Wrath, well, they've got a very harsh wake up call coming.

And the above is exactly a "works based" salvation Jethro. I'd suggest that most of such sects have also "reinvented" the term "works," revising it from this saving Work:

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

A good majority of Protestants understand that it is the WORK of God in believers that brings them to believe. There is the REAL WORK. You have another set of terms, just like the orthodox "works" salvation folk.

But it will be too late then. Repent now while you still can. Seek the infilling of God's Holy Spirit to move you to works of righteousness in a deep and sincere love for Him and His people the proof of your faith. God will remember your love and the work you do for Him and His people, and through that faith and perseverance of faith, you will inherit the promises:

What you propose above is yet another hallmark of all works based or legalist salvation sects. They MUST perpetually dangle the faithful over the potential flames of HELL in order to EXTRACT SUFFICIENT PERFORMANCES out of them in order for them to be saved.

And such matters are spot on identical to Paul's warnings to the churches given in Acts 20:29-31.

Anytime there are destroyers or potential destroyers of the flock, the believers, in the church, it is a PHONY CHURCH. A church of WOLVES.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Obviously you are in a works based salvation sect.

Lol, even after I explained, using the plain words of the Bible, how works coupled with faith is not 'works'.

 

[JLB]

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB bold mine)

... but faith working through love."

Working being the key word.

This working, is the love of Jesus, expressing His righteous life through ours, which manifest's itself as the fruit of the Spirit.

His life is ever maturing us to be more complete in Him; in those who are being renewed and transformed into His glorious image.

If the Spirit compels us to have compassion on someone who is sick, by leading us to lay hands upon them and speak healing into their sick body, by the Spirit, then that too is a work of love, expressing itself in faith.

Or a work of faith, expressing itself in love.


Either way, it's certainly not the works of the law, or man's effort to work trying to earn salvation.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Lol, even after I explained, using the plain words of the Bible, how works coupled with faith is not 'works'.

Your claims are the epitome of works based salvation, out of your own mouth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Anytime there are destroyers or potential destroyers of the flock, the believers, in the church, it is a PHONY CHURCH. A church of WOLVES.

Wait.....aren't you of the hyper-grace OSAS persuasion?
There is no such thing as a phony church in that doctrine.

 

[JLB]

What you propose above is yet another hallmark of all works based or legalist salvation sects. They MUST perpetually dangle the faithful over the potential flames of HELL in order to EXTRACT SUFFICIENT PERFORMANCES out of them in order for them to be saved.

People that demonstrate the love of God, through their lives because they are saved, is the hallmark of a believer.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What you propose above is yet another hallmark of all works based or legalist salvation sects. They MUST perpetually dangle the faithful over the potential flames of HELL in order to EXTRACT SUFFICIENT PERFORMANCES out of them in order for them to be saved.

And such matters are spot on identical to Paul's warnings to the churches given in Acts 20:29-31.

Anytime there are destroyers or potential destroyers of the flock, the believers, in the church, it is a PHONY CHURCH. A church of WOLVES.

People who misquote and misrepresent true believers, so they can accuse them of what they didn't even say, is the hallmark of those whose have been taken captive by the evil one, to do his will; which is accusing the brethren.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Wait.....aren't you of the hyper-grace OSAS persuasion.
There is no such thing as a phony church in that doctrine.

I would venture that the bulk of Protestantism departed from legalism and works based salvation quite some time ago. Starting about the time of the Gutenberg press when we figured out the priest class were lying out their noses.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

In works/legalist camps it's anything BUT the above.