Is a good deal really worth killing a man?

[stovebolts]

Well, I just heard on the radio this morning that the employee that got killed was protecting a pregnant mother that was being trampled.

hey Rick, I had an experience like you had, except I was 19 and living with two other room mates and one of my drunk room mates pointed his 357 at me thinking I was a burglar. Alcohol and guns don't mix... especially when the one with the gun romances the idea of protecting his house with a gun... I'm lucky to be alive.

Anywho... I woke my wife up at 3:10 am on Black friday for the Wall-Mart deals :D It was my first black friday, wow, what a rush! They were smart at our Wall Mart cause they put all the sale items in the main rows, taped them off and let people pretty much sit in front of the item that they wanted. Hey, got my 40 inch Samsung and Blueray player

 

[Joshua]

Back to the topic of people in the "mob" being murderers.

The victims cousin is right, someone should be held accountable. If it were up to me, i'd arrest the entire mob and charge them with manslaughter. How many who played a part in killing that innocent man would view themselves as kind and compassionate? Yet, when they see a chance of saving a few worthless dollars, all morals are out the window. A man is dead and they're free to carry on deluding themselves.

Tim said the same thing, that everyone of them who trampled that man should be charged with murder. But although it can't be done here, I think that they will have to answer to God for it. I hope that this Christmas, when all of them are enjoying their family time and opening their precious gifts, that they remember the man they killed.

If you where in the midsts of this crowd of people how could you possibly stop to help when 25, 50, 100 or more people are pushing you forward? Those people in the back don't know some one is being trampled. And the people in the front and middle don't have the force, strength, or power to stop the momentum.

Do you all really think the people went shopping with the mentality of...I'll kill(actually take a life) to get a good deal?

Plus some of you imply that the people in the crowd have no remorse or sorrow for what happened. How do you know what those people feel?

I think Wal-Mart should be held accountable for inciting a riot.

How did they incite a riot? Hundred of walmarts across the nation had the same sales and there were no riots.

I can't believe how fast we are to condemn everyone without first putting a little thought in to the circumstances surrounding the death. Almost makes me scared to have Christian leaders, judges, police and politicians if they think like some here.

 

[handy]

Here is a pretty clear picture of what was happening at the Wal-Mart in question:

Clearly, the crowd was simply too big to fit through the doors. And, we need to keep in mind that the crowd was there doing EXACTLY what Wal-Mart wanted them to do: Crowd in early, excited about all the discounts on a limited number of popular items that Wal-Mart promised would be for only the earliest shoppers.


Wal-Mart is accountable because this isn't the first time that there has been trampling at their stores due to Black Friday hysteria, which they and other retailers whip up. Each Black Friday, there are people hurt, sometimes hospitalized, due to trampling or fighting in the stores across the nation. If these mega-million-dollar corporations are going to whip up Black Friday frenzy, they have a responsiblity to hire enough security to handle crowds of hundreds of people they KNOW will be pushing through small openings. They could and need to be doing much, much more to organize the crowds that gather before opening the doors.

But, secondly, and more importantly, I do hold we Christians accountable as well. We have turned a blind eye, even participated in changing what was once a holiday to learn and remember the miraculous birth of our Lord into a commercialized, greed-fest. Of all the things the gospel looks like, it doesn't resemble the above picture in the slightest. According to the latest statistics that I could find, 84% of Americans claim to be Christian. 84% of 301,139,947 is 252,957,555. If there were truly 252,957,555 of Americans who were Christian and were concentrating on spreading the gospel to the other 48,000,000 and living the life that our Lord calls us to live, this kind of commercialized hysteria wouldn't have been accepted for so many years.

Ironcially enough, Wal-Mart was one of the stores that, because of the outcry (and a threatened boycott) by Christians, went back to saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays". We demanded they uphold the fact that they were promoting Christmas, not the 'holidays'. So, this year, Christmas, the celebration of the birth of our Lord, will be remembered most for the fact that some poor temp was trampled to death by "Christmas Shoppers". Does that sit well with y'all. It doesn't me.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Rick:Well, it didn't end up bad and I should have announced myself because I taught her how to use the thing in the first place. Living out there where we were there were no street lights or neighbors. So when I wasn't home she was alone. She "was" a fairly attractive woman and the circles we associated in were a bit less than Christian.

Better hope she never sees this thread, or you may end up looking at the wrong end of the 12ga again

 

[Joshua]

If these mega-million-dollar corporations are going to whip up Black Friday frenzy, they have a responsiblity to hire enough security to handle crowds of hundreds of people they KNOW will be pushing through small openings. They could and need to be doing much, much more to organize the crowds that gather before opening the doors.

I agree with you there.

 

[Carol Lowery]

Wow, to stomp a life for a buck saved...........sad and made me cry! My husband got me up at 2:30 am to shower and get ready for black friday. Our Wal-Mart stays opened 24/7, so people were allowed to come in but not put anything on sale in their carts until 5 am. There were no crowds hanging around outside ready in antiscipation to bust in....they let them in to browse and be were they needed to be, and everything went so smoothly. My husband had to have his Samsung blueray player, we already have our 47" HD Vizio LCD Television. But basically people were very respectful to each other. My husband said he saw two women grab the same box and wrestled it to the floor in who would have it, but outside of that, people were great!

But these people should be charged for manslaughter, and everyone of them that came through those doors on video should be charged and prosecuted. And I would hold every single one of them accountable. And next year I would ban the store for closing/locking the doors in the first place, and getting the shoppers in a frenzey. They could have roped off the sale sections with employees to inforce the rules and large poster board signs inside all the doors stating "anyone that puts sales items in their carts before 5 am will be banned from the store". This is what our wal-mart did, and believe me, no one put any sales items in their carts cause about the time they attempted, a wal-mart employee would yell out, anyone who puts any sales items in their cart before 5 am will be banned from the wal-mart store.....you heard this anouncement throughout the store periodically on intercom too. Now there were some that had been there since 3 am sitting in their little potable fold out chairs next to items like the blue ray players, but it didn't interfer with me getting one for my hubby.

But that wal-mart needs to be held accountable too, there were things that could have been done to avoid a frenzey......they created it!

 

[Gabe]

Back to the topic of people in the "mob" being murderers.

The victims cousin is right, someone should be held accountable. If it were up to me, i'd arrest the entire mob and charge them with manslaughter. How many who played a part in killing that innocent man would view themselves as kind and compassionate? Yet, when they see a chance of saving a few worthless dollars, all morals are out the window. A man is dead and they're free to carry on deluding themselves.

Tim said the same thing, that everyone of them who trampled that man should be charged with murder. But although it can't be done here, I think that they will have to answer to God for it. I hope that this Christmas, when all of them are enjoying their family time and opening their precious gifts, that they remember the man they killed.

If you where in the midsts of this crowd of people how could you possibly stop to help when 25, 50, 100 or more people are pushing you forward? Those people in the back don't know some one is being trampled. And the people in the front and middle don't have the force, strength, or power to stop the momentum.

Do you all really think the people went shopping with the mentality of...I'll kill(actually take a life) to get a good deal?

Plus some of you imply that the people in the crowd have no remorse or sorrow for what happened. How do you know what those people feel?

I think Wal-Mart should be held accountable for inciting a riot.

How did they incite a riot? Hundred of walmarts across the nation had the same sales and there were no riots.

I can't believe how fast we are to condemn everyone without first putting a little thought in to the circumstances surrounding the death. Almost makes me scared to have Christian leaders, judges, police and politicians if they think like some here.

I said "manslaughter" not "murder". The careless actions of those greedy shopper caused a man's death. Their intentions are irelevant. When you get drunk behind the wheel or get into a fight, if it causes someones death then you're punished regardless.

The article itself stated that most shoppers ignored the dying/dead man and were annoyed at having to leave the store without their precious bargains.

Gabriel

 

[handy]

The thing is, this isn't the first time someone has been trampled to death because of poorly controlled crowds. I remember the 11 kids who were trampled to death at the Who concert in 1979. I believe some also died at a Pearl Jam concert somewhere in Europe. I've also seen the people who have been crushed and injured at soccer games or other sporting events. It all comes back to the same thing: If an event which will cause a large crowd of people being in a small confined space is going to take place, it's up to the managers of that event to provide adequate safety for the crowd. I'm against trying to hold the shopper's accountable, because once the crowd was pushing forward, it was probably impossible for some of the individuals to know that someone was being crushed, or that the person who fell was unable to get up. As we live under the judicial mandate that one is innocent until proven guilty, it then becomes up to the state to try to determine if each and every person who went over that poor man was a: even aware that he was there, b: he was unable to get up on his own (I say this because videos abound of people being knocked down in doorways of stores on Black Friday who do get up on their own), and c: had the ability to avoid trampling the man but didn't do so.

Carol and Jeff gave examples of Wal-Mart's that provided adequate crowd control this year. Obviously the one in Long Island didn't do so, as even the employees at the site said that there wasn't enough security. If I was the victim's family, I would be going after Wal-Mart's for criminal neglegence, not the folks who were pushed from behind by a crowd of hundreds. Hopefully, this will serve as a wake up call to all those stores out there who push these insane 'bait and switch' and 'loss leader' deals that cause this mob behavior and yet do little or nothing to control anything other than the money they make.

Rick:Well, it didn't end up bad and I should have announced myself because I taught her how to use the thing in the first place. Living out there where we were there were no street lights or neighbors. So when I wasn't home she was alone. She "was" a fairly attractive woman and the circles we associated in were a bit less than Christian.

Better hope she never sees this thread, or you may end up looking at the wrong end of the 12ga again

:toofunny

 

[Gabe]

I disagree. Although they should have known better from past experiences, Wal-Mart did not force anyone to cause a stampede. It's a business and it's their job to sell products and they should not be held accountable for peoples greed. The shoppers likewise know from past experience, what can happen in these types of situations.

When someone dies at the hands of a drink-driver; it is the driver who is held responsible, not the alcohol or the store they purchased it from.

 

[John]

I disagree. Although they should have known better from past experiences, Wal-Mart did not force anyone to cause a stampede. It's a business and it's their job to sell products and they should not be held accountable for peoples greed. The shoppers likewise know from past experience, what can happen in these types of situations.

When someone dies at the hands of a drink-driver; it is the driver who is held responsible, not the alcohol or the store they purchased it from.

:amen

 

[Carol Lowery]

If a full fledged depression hits these same people will think nothing of looting, killing and stealing. It's good to own a few guns.

I hear you on that John. My husband and I have our weapons too. We have our Fort Knox safes, one refrigerator size, combinaion/keyed, fire/theft proof, filled with 21 rifles of all kinds. My favorite is the scoped chromed weatherbee, plus we have a smaller safe with the hand guns, some of my husbands guns are collectables. My husband is of german descent, and so he collects like his SS logo'ed german handgun made for Hitler's immediate personel....his favorite collective piece along with his german coins from the same era, and now the coins are band in Germany cause of the aftermath of Hitler, and who can blame them. And we have a small closet with a keyed dead bolt lock for the cases of ammunition for all our rifle and guns....the keys to it is kept in the small safe along with the key to the big safe.

My husband is an ex-marine and feels we should be prepared for the possiblilty of war on our soil, and believe me that possibility sunk in with 911. I have a 357 magnum Smith and Wesson, with custom grips for protection cause my husband works at nights.........and yes I know how to use it being brought up in a military family and trained up since my teens in the safety/cleaning/target practice of a gun. And we've trained our daughter up since she was seven in the same manner in case war broke out here in the states. We first educated her in the safety of handling a gun until she passed, educated her in cleaning a gun and taking care of it until she passed, educated her in what gun was more suitable for her to handle, educated her in control target practice at the police shooting range, educated her in how to load and unload (if required with certain guns) our guns/rifles until she passed what we required being mature enough to handle one with good sense.
Plus my husband has his CWP, and now our daughter and me are wanting to go through our training via police dept. to get ours.

I come from a part of California where I was in the middle of the riots in watts. A child 7 years old got shot sitting out on the porch eating an apple when the riots broke out, and a young girl 11 years old got tied to chain link fence, gasoline poured over her and set on fire. And if riots break out here, I want to protect my family if my husband is not here until he gets home. My husband carries his 45 in his truck for protection cause when the prices of gas were so high people at the pumps got down right violent when there was a shortage. With car jackings with the owners and children being in the back seat and such happenings, people being robbed in grocery store parking lots, women being kiddnapped and raped.

I want to be protected from the crazy violent people in this world. Like someone said before, it don't take from the trust I have in HIM, I just dont have trust in people that live life with no bounderies, and no respect for the lives of others when they want something someone has. It doesn't mean when I go out into the world that this is what I'm looking for, though I've been trained up to observe and know my surroundings at all times, guard percaution mode sorta speak. I'm in prayer for HIS protection where ever I go, and I've been bless to be free of such hardships that others have suffered. God always places me before or after the fact when something has been a bad situation out in the world. But you just never know whats in the mind of others.

 

[MISFIT]

How did they incite a riot? Hundred of walmarts across the nation had the same sales and there were no riots.

I can't believe how fast we are to condemn everyone without first putting a little thought in to the circumstances surrounding the death. Almost makes me scared to have Christian leaders, judges, police and politicians if they think like some here.

By having these ridiculous sales they all (every big box store) inside these riots every year. I hate to admit this but I worked at a Wal-Mart for a few years while I finished school, and I have seen people act in the worst ways during these things if I want a creationist I'd swear they all de-evolved. I've seen two women fist fighting over a shopping cart, a three foot tall old lady punch and almost break the nose of a old coworker of mine over a gameboy, my old boss trampled and hurt badly, and many many other senseless acts of violence.

 

[Joshua]

How did they incite a riot? Hundred of walmarts across the nation had the same sales and there were no riots.

I can't believe how fast we are to condemn everyone without first putting a little thought in to the circumstances surrounding the death. Almost makes me scared to have Christian leaders, judges, police and politicians if they think like some here.

By having these ridiculous sales they all (every big box store) inside these riots every year. I hate to admit this but I worked at a Wal-Mart for a few years while I finished school, and I have seen people act in the worst ways during these things if I want a creationist I'd swear they all de-evolved. I've seen two women fist fighting over a shopping cart, a three foot tall old lady punch and almost break the nose of a old coworker of mine over a gameboy, my old boss trampled and hurt badly, and many many other senseless acts of violence.

I've seen two homeless men fight over a pack of clean underwear...does that mean I should stop giving out clothes to the homeless?

 

[John]

I think your missing the point Joshua. The Walmarts purposely initiate these sales, they should have learned from past years but they don't.

 

[MISFIT]

How did they incite a riot? Hundred of walmarts across the nation had the same sales and there were no riots.

I can't believe how fast we are to condemn everyone without first putting a little thought in to the circumstances surrounding the death. Almost makes me scared to have Christian leaders, judges, police and politicians if they think like some here.

By having these ridiculous sales they all (every big box store) inside these riots every year. I hate to admit this but I worked at a Wal-Mart for a few years while I finished school, and I have seen people act in the worst ways during these things if I want a creationist I'd swear they all de-evolved. I've seen two women fist fighting over a shopping cart, a three foot tall old lady punch and almost break the nose of a old coworker of mine over a gameboy, my old boss trampled and hurt badly, and many many other senseless acts of violence.

I've seen two homeless men fight over a pack of clean underwear...does that mean I should stop giving out clothes to the homeless?

Are you just out to fight with me or do you have a point? If you watched two homeless men fight over a pack of under wear, why didn't you give them both a pack of their own? Seems like that would have been the Christian thing to do.

 

[Joshua]

No I'm not out to fight. I was trying to ask a question to make a point. My point being that we can't blame others for our actions. I don't believe walmart sets out to hurt people during their sales. Nor should they be held responsible for an individuals actions.

Only one man came to the table and got the underwear then the other man tried to take them. The other man never came within 50 feet of where we were. The fight wouldn't have happened if we weren't their correct?

I only attempt to follow other logic. (maybe I follow it to the extreme, but then being trampled to death in a walmart is extreme.)

 

[MISFIT]

No I'm not out to fight. I was trying to ask a question to make a point. My point being that we can't blame others for our actions. I don't believe walmart sets out to hurt people during their sales. Nor should they be held responsible for an individuals actions.

Only one man came to the table and got the underwear then the other man tried to take them. The other man never came within 50 feet of where we were. The fight wouldn't have happened if we weren't their correct?

I only attempt to follow other logic. (maybe I follow it to the extreme, but then being trampled to death in a walmart is extreme.)

I can't believe anyone would defend Walmart for anything! They are the most evil corporation in the world. When I was dumb enough to work there 1/3 of my pay check went to what they call health insurance I've been gone from the fr three years now and I'm still paying off medical bills tat their poor insurance would not cover. Trust me they know what happens every year and they don't care as all they want is your money they don't care about you, what you want, if your hurt, or their employees all they want is your money. Did you know that a Wal-Mart employee can be fired for suggesting that a customer go to another store to find an item Wal-Mart does not carry?Having seen it from the inside I can tell you that pretty much every negative thing you hear about Wal-Mart is true.

 

[Joshua]

I never worked at wal-mart so I'll take your word for it.

 

[MISFIT]

I never worked at wal-mart so I'll take your word for it.

I'm sorry I ever did

 

[Carol Lowery]

Hey Misfit, we had a slogan for BiLo when I was manager. BiLo never stops caring, cause it never started! Sounds like it was yours too.