Is belief in the trinity essential for salvation?

[justvisiting]

Actually, I think I tend to agree more with David Hockings on the proper name of Christ. Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. This site: http://www.davidhocking.org/blog/?p=97
THE FOLLOWING ARE SEARCHES I HAVE DONE ON GODHEAD:

Hope I'm clear in my understanding. The Spirit (the Holy Ghost) proceeds from the Father... and is sent by the Father. The Son proceeds from the Father... and is sent by the Father, but it seems the Word (Christ) had neither beginning of days, nor end of life. There are three that bear record in heaven... The Father... The Word... and The Holy Spirit... and these three are one.
Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath SEEN the Father.

1 John 5:7  For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the FATHER(Spirit), the WORD(Jesus glorified), and the HOLY GHOST(Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father): and these three are one.

Ephesians 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and IN you all.
John 15:26  ¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of truth, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, he shall testify of me:
John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (Jesus was a comforter also), that he may abide with you FOR EVER;

28  ¶I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Genesis 18:1  ¶And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

John 15:26  ¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of truth, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, he shall testify of me:

John 8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, ...HE doeth the works.

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

John 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Colossians 1:19  For IT PLEASED THE FATHER THAT IN HIM SHOULD ALL FULNESS DWELL;

Hebrews 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1 Peter 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Corinthians 6:17  But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Corinthians 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 4:24  GOD IS "A" SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 7:39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet GIVEN; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 15:26  ¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of TRUTH, which proceedeth FROM the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13  Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK; AND HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME.

Acts 8:29  Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Acts 8:39  And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 10:19  ¶While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Acts 16:7  After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
Romans 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of HIM that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Acts 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Colossians 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15  Who is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the firstborn of every creature:

1 Timothy 1:17  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 11:27  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, AS SEEING HIM WHO IS INVISIBLE.

John 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 12:44
 ¶Jesus cried and said, HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME, BELIEVETH NOT ON ME, BUT ON HIM THAT SENT ME.
45  And he that SEETH "ME", SEETH "HIM" (the Father) THAT SENT ME.

John 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17  If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

John 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father THAT DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.
11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it SEETH HIM NOT, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you.

John 14:20  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:28  ¶Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 15:26  ¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of truth, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, he shall testify of me:

28  ¶I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Matthew 10:20  For it is not ye that speak, but "the Spirit of your Father" which speaketh in you.

Luke 11:13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Luke 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


John 16:23  ¶And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28  ¶I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE the world was.

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 4:26  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27  For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 15:6  That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Corinthians 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:




 

 

[justvisiting]

THIS IS THE LAST OF THOSE SEARCHES:
 ¶For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ephesians 6:23  Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God:
7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Colossians 1:12  ¶Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15  Who is THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn of every creature:
16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19  For IT PLEASED THE FATHER THAT IN HIM SHOULD ALL FULNESS DWELL;

Colossians 2:2  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9  For IN HIM DWELLETH all the fulness of the Godhead BODILY.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Hebrews 1:1  ¶GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;
3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7  And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8  But UNTO THE SON HE SAITH, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hebrews 1:13  But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 7:1  ¶For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2  To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3  Without father, without mother, without descent, HAVING NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS, NOR END OF LIFE; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

 

[D4Christ]

just visiting,

I'm guessing that you posted those verses to show evidence for the trinity?? If so, my purpose in stating my position was not to contest the validity of the trinity as this board does not allow that fact to be disputed. Rather my point was to state that those who believe in the trinity have no basis to judge those of us who do not...especially when after stating my beliefs about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I doubt one can find anything heretical in my statements. I beleive in all three the same as most...It just does not make sense to me they should all be one person, especially since we are made in the image and likeness of God. Humans who claim to have multiple personalities living within them are usually classified as crazy.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[SpiritualSon]

God pays more attention to man's behavior than his beliefs.

Harry

 

[justvisiting]

Sorry for the long previous posts. I thought it might help to browse through those scriptures to determine what you believe.
Deirdre, what do you say to this.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was IN them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
THESE WERE THE PROPHETS THAT PROPHESIED OF CHRIST.

 

[justvisiting]

God pays more attention to man's behavior than his beliefs.

Harry

I know what you are saying...but how do you know that the faith of Elijah, didn't also have something to do with His understanding of who GOD really was. Of course BOTH are good credentials, because living a good life alone doesn't get one into the kingdom of Heaven. We also need to have some core beliefs, that align with what God says.
Anyway, I'll stay out of this, and see if someone else wants to reply.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

@ OP

Just do what Jesus did.... pray to God, who Jesus (and the Old Testament prophets) taught as being one.

 

[justvisiting]

just visiting,

I'm guessing that you posted those verses to show evidence for the trinity?? If so, my purpose in stating my position was not to contest the validity of the trinity as this board does not allow that fact to be disputed. Rather my point was to state that those who believe in the trinity have no basis to judge those of us who do not...especially when after stating my beliefs about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I doubt one can find anything heretical in my statements. I beleive in all three the same as most...It just does not make sense to me they should all be one person, especially since we are made in the image and likeness of God. Humans who claim to have multiple personalities living within them are usually classified as crazy.

Blessings,
Deirdre

I'm not making any accusations at anyone. I only presented actual scripture, to see if it would help with deriving conclusions. My key scripture is John 4:24 God is a Spirit ...Christ is the express image of the Father(Spirit) embodied in flesh.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, ...HE doeth the works.

BTW this scripture seems to have the possibility of having another interpretation.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was IN them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
THESE WERE THE PROPHETS THAT PROPHESIED OF CHRIST.
en
Thayer Definition:
1) in, by, with etc.
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537)
Citing in TDNT: 2:537, 233

Strong's
G1722
á¼Âν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “inâ€Â, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

I was taught the with, in and upon relationships...but it is still debatable. Christ did say wait for the promise of the Father...

Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.


I'm more interested in coming to sound doctrine than proving someone is wrong...unless of course they are ...WAAAY out in left field... which I am not accusing you of.

 

[Free]

The topic of this thread is not about proof for or against the Trinity. Please keep it on topic.

Thanks.

 

[D4Christ]

justvisiting,

I'm sorry if I left you with the impression that I was accussing you. I simply wanted to effectivley state that trinity is not necessary for salvation and those who hold this position should not be demonized nor have their chrisitianity questioned. To my knowledge, you have never said this...my post was directed though, to those who did.

However, at this time I have exhausted my trinity discussion as the question "is the trinity necessary for salvation" also begs the questions is the trinity valid...which I assume from what I read to be off limits.

Thanks for your discussions anyway, as you bring interesting insights into a topic.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[justvisiting]

You're welcome...and thankyou for yours.

 

[Free]

D4Christ,

There can be civil discussion on the Trinity, this just isn't the thread for it.

 

[Croc7801]

Is belief in the trinity essential for salvation?



So what happens if one does not understand the trinity?

What do you mean; clarify the question. I don't know a Christian that did not have an understanding of the Gods nature being revealed in 3 persons; do you?

LOL...Amen to that!