Is Christ equal to God?

[McQuacks]

Great post Nocturnal!

And Orthodox Christian the verse that you gave me even support my claims. Let's examine.

These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said -- `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to him -- he may give to them life age-during; and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ; I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee; (John 17:1-5)

Jesus was humbling Himself by coming down to earth. I think this is very important to understand, especially when addressing verses like John 17:3, John 5:30-33, and many of the other verses you have brought up.

Not that Jesus was declaring Himself less than God, but He was coming down to our humble human state and leaving His glory that He had with the Father "before the world began." He was essentially putting Himself under the Father's authority by coming down here among us. Philippians 2:6-8. Here's a good read, also from CARM: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/humbled.htm To quote from there:

John 5:27, "and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man."
Jesus, as a man under the Law, cooperated with the limitations of being a man. As a man, authority would have to be given Him. Remember, Jesus was not moving out of His divine nature, but was moving and walking as a man in order to fulfill the Law completely and properly.

Also from that link:

Because Jesus was made lower than the angels, as a man, there are certain ramifications to this humbled and emptied condition.

That Jesus was subject to the Law, (Gal. 4:4).
Jesus was subject to the Father who sent Him, (John 5:30).
Jesus would be circumcised, (Luke 1:59).
Jesus would grow in wisdom and stature, (Luke 2:52).
Jesus would not know all things (Mark 13:32).
etc.
The above facts do not negate the deity of Christ. God could easily become a man, humble Himself, join Himself to human nature and then be subject to the Law, to grow, to learn, etc. This would be a natural result of being a man, wouldn't it? And, it would not negate the deity of Christ at all. It only demonstrates that the Word made flesh was fully a man. Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me? (Matthew 27:46)
Who is Jesus's God? He is certainly not saying, "Why did I forsake myself." No, He is saying, "Why did My God(The Father), my God(The Father), forsake me."

http://www.carm.org/questions/why_forsake_me.htm That's a pretty good explanation. Psalm 22 is a messianic psalm, and Jesus was most likely quoting that. Also, like that page says, Jesus became sin for us, so

It is possible that at some moment on the cross, when Jesus became sin on our behalf, that God the Father, in a sense, turned His back upon the Son.

which would have resulted in the Son crying out in anguish.

Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (Ephesians 1:3)

Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Again, we need to address these from the perspective that Jesus was indeed humbling Himself by coming down here to earth, becoming a Servant to His Father, and worshiping Him like a Servant would. So in that regard, yes, you could say that the Father is Jesus' God. But certainly not in the same sense that He is ours. And I think it's very important for us to understand that distinction.
God bless! Hope this post isn't too long!
-McQ 8-)

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Nocturnal_Principal_X I already have my hands full debating about the Father and the Son, so forgive me if I cannot answer about the Holy Spirit at this time.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Nocturnal_Principal_X I already have my hands full debating about the Father and the Son, so forgive me if I cannot answer about the Holy Spirit at this time.

No problem, I'm not really interesting in debating myself. I was merely providing some facts for you to think about. I sense that you are searching and are still open to differing beliefs, within Christianity, and I just want to add to your thought process and exploration some import facts that may help you to make a better decision in your spiritual walk.

I of course have differences that are greatly different from yours but I do not want to push my beliefs on you. I merely want to allow God to work through me to lead you to a better understanding of Him. I say this because I know in the past I have at times been dogmatic, when I need not be, and bullheaded. I have been praying very hard for God to open my mind even more and to “get me out of the way†and allow Him to provide knowledge and understanding. I know that my prayers and concerns are not unique but they need to be prayed none the less.

One last thing, even though I am a Southern Baptist I try and am often open to ideas that are, at times, vastly different then the typical Southern Baptist view. However, I would like to point out that my beliefs in fact are very close if not entirely along the lines with the Southern Baptist Conventions (of which I still have some problems with) statements of “Faith and Message.â€Â

See link for “The Baptist Faith and Message†provided below:
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i

In closing I just want to let you know I am telling you all this so you understand better where I am coming from when we converse in the future on this message board.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Thanks for trying to help me Nocturnal_Principal_X. The only theology that I am really sure of is "Universal Reconciliation."; I can never go back to "Eternal Damnation."

 

[Gendou Ikari]

or even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven, whether upon earth -- as there are gods many and lords many -- yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him; (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

This was written after Jesus Christ's ascension so he isn't humbled anymore. See that One God. And who is that God? The Father! Not the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, just the Father.

It is pointless for me to debate this any further, since we will come to the same conclusion. Anyway, it's been fun.

 

[McQuacks]

or even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven, whether upon earth -- as there are gods many and lords many -- yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him; (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

If you only accept that verse and ones like it, then you are neglecting the numerous other verses where Paul clearly states that Jesus is God. I guess my point is, we cannot exclude verses. It's important to look at the Bible as a whole and in the context, not just separate verses. I think we'd all benefit by doing this, and get a much better understanding of Scripture.
You're right, if we're not willing to consider other points then a debate will end without accomplishing much.
-McQ 8-)

 

[PHIL121]

Yes, Christ is equal to God the Father. And both are equal to the Holy Spirit.

Although, in my opinion, they are NOT exactly the same. They are three aspects of the One Divine God.

 

[jgarden_47]

I and my Father are one.
John 10:30
(Christ equal to God)


Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
(Christ less than God)

The relationship between God and Jesus was at the heart of the Arian Controversy that split the early church. The Arian motto was, "there was when He was not," and that the Word was not God but the first, but the first of the creatures (Jesus) He created.

Emperor Constantine attempted to solve this controversy by the adoption of the Nicene Creed.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I and my Father are one.
John 10:30
(Christ equal to God)

Unlike Soma-Sight says, Jesus Christ never claims to be equal to God. He just says that He is one with the Father. Does being on with something mean equality. No! I think that it is time for an example.

Your computer has a CPU and a Monitor. The CPU is the unseen mind behind all of your computers workings. The Monitor allows whatever the CPU wants to be an express image of what the CPU is doing or is. Are they equal? No! The CPU is clearly greater since the Monitor is subjected to it's will. Are they One? Yes! They are connected by a cable that links the two, making them one in purpose and in total concordance.

 

[Darrell dunn]

In Rev.3:21 even as I overcame, and am set down with my father in his throne.

Now this says that they share the throne, meaning equal in everything.