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I was reading this article about Haggard - and what stood out to me, wasn't so much about his sexual sins - that has already been discussed, but his salary!

I assume this is true of other 'mega-churches'? Makes we wonder about them - are the pastor's in it for the ministry or the lifestyle!

New Life will continue to pay Haggard's salary of roughly $130,000 through this year. In exchange, he has agreed not to talk to the media and to leave town. Haggard and his wife have five children, two of them still in school; he has told friends that he is looking at moving the family somewhere with a low cost of living, perhaps Iowa or Missouri.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... nes-nation
 
someone once said to me that they had turned away from the church as it didn't practice what it preached. they didn't like that the pastor was being paid so well and living in a really nice big house, while the church didn't help those sleeping on the streets around them etc.
 
Unfortunately there are churches that do run like a business and I would suspect the number of people in the congregation would be an important factor. The danger lies in tickling the ears of the people to keep them coming and not preaching the truth.

However, there are also churches that don't do this, one of which I belonged to in Salt Lake City. And it's these churches one must seek out.
 
I think it depends on the Pastor and church
In my Church we have three full time pastors. All make over 6 figures a year.
In looking at the way they live and cars they drive you would never know it.

All of our pastors have been through seminary, All of our pastors have the Alphabet soup and so forth. all are fluent in Greek and one in Hebrew as well....

The point is this. These men have dedicated their lives to serving the Lord by educating themselves (trust me, this ain't cheap) to better teach and equip the Church...Our pastors are very approachable and consider themselves servants and do the serving as opposed to being served...

Anyway, thats my opinion.
 
Jg - I agree, it would depend on the pastor and the church - personally - does a pastor need a 6 figure income? And I suppose, does anyone really NEED a 6 figure income?

However, one other thing that struck me about the salary - was that Haggard was going to continue to receive his salary for the rest of the year!
 
I'm not sure exactly what our Synod compensation reccomondations are for pastors. I do know that the church I grew up in, the Senior Pastor wasn't even making half of a six-figure salary.

I have also heard so many people say that the reason they don't like coming to church is because all you hear about is how they want money. Well, every once in a while I think it's a good thing for a pastor to give a sermon on stewardship.

Pastors coming out of the sem in our synod are all at minimum fluent in Greek. I believe that they also study hebrew and many (if they are taking the "pastor track" early on also have taken Latin pre-sem). I have even seen some of our pastors personal libraries where they have, verse for verse, the original greek with translation / notes for each verse. It's amazing.

In the relm of the secular thinking are pastors unercompensated? I would say yes. Generally speaking, so are teachers.
 
Alone
To further elaborate on what I said earlier. Our church also does not provide housing or anything other than a good salary.The Cost of living here in Southern California is among the highest in the country. The average rent for a three bedroom house on my neighborhood is $2500.00 a month. Also our pastors have to prepare for retirement. They have no 401kS or nything like that.

Here is another thing about my church...
It never asks for money...The only time there is a message on tithing is when we run into it while going through a book of the bible.

Visitors are encouraged NOT to tithe...Our church also contributes appx 33% of its budget for missions. We have our own missionaries and also support a local orphanage. We also have a few world vision children that we support. We have a bible institute on campus where people and many pastors from other churches come to learn Greek, theology, Church history, etec...This teaching that is taught by our pastors is eligible for college credit for only $75.00 a class with no diploma or $450.00 for college credit and diploma (state requirement) + books...Folks this type of education cost $3000.00 for semester....Trust me, I know.

All this and we never beg for money....The Lord will provide for his church...
I say this not to boast, because you will never hear our pastors or elders boast of this things...But I love my church and am proud to be a part of it....

If NOT FOR ME, I would be going to a perfect church.... :)
 
jg - please do not think that I was criticizing you or your church or your pastors.
 
aLoneVoice said:
jg - please do not think that I was criticizing you or your church or your pastors.

oh, no not at all. I did not take that way one bit....

I think this type of conversation is good. Get away from theology and talk about other things as well...

For example. Should every believer belong to a church body?
What about church ''membership''

What about fund raisers?

What about yard sales, should churches have them?

There are many different opinions on this.
 
This might make some people angry, and some will agree.

THE IDOL OF A "BIG MINISTRY"
-by George Davis and Michael Clark.

Christendom today venerates one icon above all others. It is the most
deceitful, illusive and beloved idol known to religious man. While other
idols are more obvious and more readily cast off, this one object of
worship is often the last god to go. It is talked about on every
"Christian" television and radio broadcast and is the topic of an untold
number of "Christian" books. Many people spend their lives in undying
devotion, burning incense to it from the wee hours of the morning to the
late hours of the night. What is this idol that bewitches so many
well-meaning Christians today? Is it a statue of some Phoenician god set
up in a secret sanctum? No. It is more subtle than that. It is the god
of ministry.

Behind this idol is an even more beguiling and sinister object of
worship. As in the movie "The Wizard of Oz," if you pull back the
curtain behind the flash, fire, and smoke of a lot of "ministry" today,
you often discover a different culprit altogether. Cowering behind the
curtain called "My Ministry" is the self-exalting fraud of
self-interest. Much of what is done in the name of ministry today comes
from an inordinate romance with our own reputations, and resembles a PR
campaign, complete with regular mental polling to determine your
ratings. At the end of the day, success is determined by going down an
unseen checklist of all the people that can hurt or help your cause and
realizing that all of them have been placated. Yes, "nothing succeeds
like the appearance of success." (Christopher Lasch).

Jesus contrasted this idolatry to His own devotion to the Father. He
told the Pharisees, "I don't receive glory from men, but I know you,
that you don't have God's love in yourselves. I have come in my Father's
name, and you don't receive me. If another comes in his own name, you
will receive him. How can you believe, who receive glory from one
another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?"
(John 5:41-44) Let's ponder these words for a moment.

One predominate trait of this idolatry is expressed in Christ's words,
"If another comes in his own name, you will receive him." How often have
we seen this? Great crowds gather to hear and see men of renown who come in their own name, but he who is true, who seeks the honor of the One true God, and refuses to accept honor from men is not received. One of
the unwritten qualifications for this good ol' boys club is "You pat my
back and I'll pat yours."

How often do we see men in ministry coming in their own names? There is
Bobby ____ Ministries, Kenneth _____ Ministries, ________ and
Associates, _____ _____ University, ______ Bible Institute and so on.
Carnal man loves to have his name in lights. Carnal followers love to be
identified with big name personalities. Can you see John the Baptist
with a huge sign on the cliff above the Jordan that read, "John the
Baptist Ministries" or "Baptisms are us"? No, John did not come in his
own name. When messengers from the religious leaders in Jerusalem asked who he was, he simply answered, "I am the voice of one crying in the
wilderness." John did not come to lift himself up, but to make the path
straight for the only One who God wanted to glorify, the very Son of God.

Jesus told those Pharisees, "I don't receive glory from men. But I know
you . . ." There is little doubt what Christ is saying here. Because
these Pharisees did not have God's love IN them nor seek God's honor,
they did not truly worship God. Instead, they honored themselves. They
looked for honor from men and not the honor that comes from God alone.
Their religious cloak was only a ploy to gain power over the righteous.

Paul puts it this way, "But he who boasts, let him boast in the Lord.
For (because) it isn't he who commends himself who is approved, but whom
the Lord commends" (2 Corinthians 10:17-18 emphasis added). Elsewhere he wrote, "For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I
striving to please men? For if I were still pleasing men, I wouldn't be
a servant of Christ" (Galatians 1:10). It doesn't get any plainer than
this. If the favor of men is our focus, we cannot be the servants of
Christ. We are not true if we do not seek the glory that comes from God
alone. To receive glory in this life for the work of God is to miss
receiving it from Him in the next. He will say to us as we stand in
judgment, "I say unto you, you have had your reward."

When our sense of accountability is horizontal toward man rather than
vertical toward God, we cannot possibly be faithful to Christ. When we
look for praise from man, jealousy and unbelief creep in. Jesus said,
"How can you believe, who receive glory from one another?" Belief is
more than adhering to a system of doctrine; it is faithfulness to God's
leading and obedience to Him alone. You live what you really believe.


Man's Good Ol' Boy Networks

Unless a man is free from private ambition and free from the need for
man's approval, he cannot be a true servant to the people of God. Paul
wrote, "For being free from all, I have made myself bondman to all, that
I might gain the most possible." (1 Corinthians 9:19, Darby) You cannot
truly serve another and do what is best for them if you are fearful of
falling into their displeasure. This fear is what makes today's good ol'
boy networks work. In associations like these, the members are
constantly trying to make themselves look better and win the approval of
the power clique in hopes of moving up the ladder.

One ministry that is making great inroads on today's apostolic/prophetic
community has a single man at the top who instructs the other ministries
under his venue to cut off anyone who will not yield to their authority.
He and his ruling board also advocate removing pastors who will not come
under their power from their ministries. Having been raised in the
Catholic Church, I (Michael) see the same controlling, top-down
structure here in this Protestant group that I saw in my youth. The
proverb has once again been proven, "Like mother, like daughters" (see
Ezekiel 16:44-45).

This movement goes by different names, such as Third Day, Third Wave, or
New Apostolic Reformation, and is the religious equivalent of the New
World Order of the governments of the Beast system. These Third Day
ministries professes to think outside the box, but a closer analysis of
their structure reveals the same old box with a new look. The thing that
they will not touch is the hierarchical structure that has been in place
for the last 1700 years. If anything, what is coming is a greater
concentration of power to the few at the top. These elite few are taking
to themselves the titles of apostles and prophets. The thinking goes,
"If we just tack scriptural names and titles on what we have built in
the past, then God will bless it." Nothing has really changed. The
controlling spirit behind it is still the same.

The motive of the heart determines whether you are true or not in the
eyes of God. The current preoccupation with accountability in the church
is to insure that the ones at the top remain there. The ambitious who
are climbing toward the top use submission to get their piece of bread.
Solomon wrote: To show partiality is not good, Because for a piece of
bread a man will transgress (Proverbs 28:21, NKJV). These people can be
bought and in fact have been. They sell themselves for promotion in the
eyes of honored men. As Jesus put it, "No one can serve two masters;
either he will hate the one and will love the other; or else he will
hold to the one, and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24). No wonder the
church is filled with apostasy these days.

Our Lord "made Himself of no reputation." He didn't come to win friends
and influence enemies or use soul power to build a large following.
Jesus did not render eyeservice and He was not a man-pleaser. His eyes
were trained on the Father and He did only the things He saw the Father
doing. Who was Jesus accountable to? Who did He honor? Who did He
receive honor from?

Choose the cross, dear saint, not the way that seems right to men but ends in death. Jesus is the Pattern Son. Follow Him alone. Then when you stand before Him you will hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant," not "I say unto you, you have already had your reward."
 
reply

Destiny, You should start judging yourself and not others. Who made you the judge?




May God bless, Golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Destiny, You should start judging yourself and not others. Who made you the judge?




May God bless, Golfjack
Try not to get personal, please. If you didn't like the article then say so.
You really should take your own advice sometime Golfjack.
 
.


Destiny,

Thanks for providing that "information" / "Food for thought" / "another perspective on the subject" / ! :wink: :smt023


.
 
Relic said:
.


Destiny,

Thanks for providing that "information" / "Food for thought" / "another perspective on the subject" / ! :wink: :smt023


.
I guess I can definitely bring another perspective ;-)

Thanks, Relic
 
I've gone to Haggards (ex) church for the past 8 years. While I agree that 6 figures is excessive, Haggard did not set his own salary. And I don't think the 130,000 is accurate as far as what the church actually paid him. He receives money from his book deals and other ventures he had going. Also, I'd be willing to wager that he gave a significant amount of his salary towards God's kingdom (regretfully, it is shameful that he began to use some of it for meth and other sinful acts in the last few years). But he lived in a modest house and drove modest transportation. He did not own a jet or multiple recreational vehicles or expensive suits or shoes. He has 5 kids, one of which is mentally handicapped (which crippled them financially for a LONG time to take care of him).

I personally don't think they should be currently paying him his full income. However, his family should be supported by the church until he can become gainfully employed again. So, yes, church is a business. It has overhead, payroll, taxes, expenses, etc. that must be met to survive.

To answer the topic's question, I think the church should focus on ministry, but if it does not have a business model or strategic business plan, the ministries can not be funded.
 
Many years ago I attended a church that was poor as dirt...It was so broke, it could not even pay attention....The pastor had to get a job in order to live....

I for one was more than faithful with my tithes and offerings...and where a few other folks...The congregation was about 150 people or so, and no dept...So why was this church hurting financially....? I really don't know. I have my ideas, but don't want to speculate. The point is this...My church while not wealthy has money enough to do cool things for the kingdom. Having been in both situations, I can tell you that it is really nice to be able to fund our own out reach programs, we provide 2 scholarships yearly for Bible college at Masters college with the only requirement being that they serve at our church for two years after graduating....so I can tell you this....where do all good and perfect gifts come from....God....God is the one who saves people, God is the one who brings people to church, Acts 2.... all this and we never ask for money. God provides the funds we need...
We also have a benevolence fund to help the elderly in our church....

So Money if used and attained in the right way is a blessing....

I should also mention that our pastors have no authority what so ever...There job is to teach the word of God....They have no access to the check book...they can't authorize new ministries, nada...
''everything'' goes through the board of elders....We have 12 elders none of whom get paid and about 50-60 deacons and deaconess that don't get paid.

Do we have problems, you bet we do....I am there.. but really, where the Lord is, so are the armies of darkness....which is why we have a 24hr prayer chain and all the teachers, elderes. staff basically have prayer partners...and the congregation praying for us all....
 
destiny posted:
Cowering behind the curtain called "My Ministry" is the self-exalting fraud of
self-interest. Much of what is done in the name of ministry today comes
from an inordinate romance with our own reputations, and resembles a PR
campaign, complete with regular mental polling to determine your
ratings.

How often do we see men in ministry coming in their own names? There is
Bobby ____ Ministries, Kenneth _____ Ministries, ________ and
Associates, _____ _____ University, ______ Bible Institute and so on.

John did not come in his own name. When messengers from the religious leaders in Jerusalem asked who he was, he simply answered, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness."

Hmm, never thought about this much before. Personally, I think it's possible for people to tack their names on a ministry and still be a pretty good servant for God. I'm thinking of one in particular that played a large part in leading me back to the Lord. I think God was with them.

I do know of other "ministries" that are blatently out there for the money. For me, they're pretty easy to pick out. I'm just amazed people don't see through it.

destiny posted:
They looked for honor from men and not the honor that comes from God alone. Their religious cloak was only a ploy to gain power over the righteous.

When our sense of accountability is horizontal toward man rather than
vertical toward God, we cannot possibly be faithful to Christ.

Unless a man is free from private ambition and free from the need for
man's approval, he cannot be a true servant to the people of God.

Yeah, that is a good goal. But its definately a better thing that Jesus saves us even when we are bad at being true servants. :wink: I can think of alot of times that my private ambition gets in the way. I would assume that happens for everyone. Just got to hope that God makes good despite the bad. I know He does!!

So destiny, just out of curiousity, What do you think would be a better way of naming them?
 
So destiny, just out of curiousity, What do you think would be a better way of naming them?
I have no idea. I think anythng that is extremely large and ran like a business is probably going to be pretty corrupt or get pretty corrupt, given the hour we live in.
Our society is a testament to the condition of the church in America, and I believe it will get a lot worse in the near future. It would be interesting to see who still preached the gospel if the big money and perks were removed. I guess that would tell it wouldn't it?
But then again theres a lot of them with riches they've made off the gospel, yet they still don't preach it.

By the way ...I didn't write the article
 
destiny wrote:
By the way ...I didn't write the article

Yup, I did see that.

You know, I've always thought of the Mormon Church as a perfect example of a bad mix of church and business. It is kind of like the "American Dream religion". A fantastic business... horrible church.
 
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Timothy 4:5
 
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