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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Is free will biblical?
- Thread starter ProphetMark
- Start date
I've thought about it and I'm still confused, so since you wrote/quote it, perhaps you can explain what
Here's where I'm stumbling: to "belong to Jesus' sheep", I'm guessing that you'd need to believe. Thus, the quote in its entirety would represent perfectly circular reasoning.
means?MarkT said:
Here's where I'm stumbling: to "belong to Jesus' sheep", I'm guessing that you'd need to believe. Thus, the quote in its entirety would represent perfectly circular reasoning.
Ben Joiner
Member
- Sep 29, 2009
- 26
- 0
If you look in John, Jesus is continually making a point that if they were truly the people of God, then they would receive Jesus as well because God has sent Jesus. He makes the point very clearly in John 7:16-17
16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
This point is also strongly empasized in ch 8 which ends with an attempt to execute Jesus. This is a continually enforced point in John as the opposers of Jesus routinely claim that He is not from God. John then returns to the point in 1 John 5:1
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
I believe that this is what He meant by saying, that if they were truly His sheep then they would believe Him.
16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
This point is also strongly empasized in ch 8 which ends with an attempt to execute Jesus. This is a continually enforced point in John as the opposers of Jesus routinely claim that He is not from God. John then returns to the point in 1 John 5:1
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
I believe that this is what He meant by saying, that if they were truly His sheep then they would believe Him.
J
justvisiting
Guest
Amen to that.
Consider...Adam, made from earth was 'earthy' and 'natural' but Jesus was from 'heaven', heavenly and spiritual (1 Cor 15:45-48). So, Jesus not having the same fleshly weakness as did the first Adam, overcame where the first Adam was TOO WEAK to overcome the forces of evil that came by and through the serpent.RND said:
- Matt 7:17-18
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit;
but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,
neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. KJV
It was impossible for Jesus to bring forth evil fruit.
It was impossible for Adam, the first Adam to choose to do GOOD!
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Our free will to sin is tied directly to Gods allowing that freedom by His own will.ProphetMark said:
>>The Will of God
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Even if an argument is 'circular' does not negate its presenting fact.AAA said:
The bible shows that it is Gods word. Possibly that is a 'circular' argument, but putting fallible mans obnoxiously arrogant labels on the argument doesnt nullify that the bible IS Gods word.
If that was the case then God was wasting His breath in commanding Adam to obey. The fact that God even gave Adam a warning in the first place indicates Adam did in indeed have a choice to do evil or good.Ret said:
Joshua knew that man had free will and had a choice:
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Ben Joiner
Member
- Sep 29, 2009
- 26
- 0
Ret said:
Are these two propositions honest to your claim?
1 it is impossible for Jesus to do Evil.
2 it is impossible for Adam to do Good.
If this is the case, then the individuals have no choice over whether they are good or evil. This makes their condition as good or evil something they cannot be held responsible for causing. The question arises, who if anyone is? There are two options
1 atheism is true and these people are that way by accident
2atheism is untrue, thereby making all actions either caused by God or caused by a free will agent God has created.
If option 2 is true, then a free will agent created by God simply becomes "Adam and Jesus." To explain, if I don't control myself, then whoever does is actually me. If Jesus and Adam are totally lifeless, then they are controlled by someone and that someone is them. It can even be two persons controlling them, as long as option 1 is untrue.
If option 2 is true, then it is also possible that Jesus and Adam are simply under the control of God. This being the case, God cannot be purely good or purely evil, because He is the source of both. This defies the long held Idea of God as Supremely Good.
Furthermore, God being all powerful, must make decisions to affect all situations. Therefore, God's decisions must be in complete agreement because He cannot be two sided. The reason is that this two sided good decisions vs evil decisions are at total odds with each other but yet also all powerful. You cannot have two forces who want to destroy each other and both have the power to do so. They can either come to a truce or fail in their quests, but they cannot both achieve their quests. Since this is a logical contradiction akin to saying that both Jesus and Mohammed are right, then it cannot be true. God must be either totally good or evi, not both.
Therefore it is concluded that either Jesus and Adam are 1accidents 2free willed 3under the control of free will agents 4neither good nor evil(like rocks).
AAA said:
It's simply stating a fact. The Jews who went out to question Jesus did not believe Jesus was the Christ because they did not belong to his sheep. They were not the men Jesus was looking for. Jesus said his sheep were given to him by the Father; they would hear his voice and they would follow him. That's a fact. They do.
Belief comes by hearing not by freewill. You know yourself that you can't decide to believe something you don't believe. People don't choose what they believe. You can't force your way into the kingdom.
People who believe in evolution, for example, say they are persuaded by the so called evidence. Likewise we are persuaded by the gospel and the scriptures. In this way Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled.
I'm not making a judgment but the liars and the fornicators and the haters of God are out there, and their numbers are growing, and for this reason the day of wrath is coming. At least give yourself a chance to hear the word of God. Read the Bible.
We must first be regenerated (born of the Spirit) before we can respond to the call of salvation. If the Holy Spirit does not make us alive, then we can't respond because dead people don't respond to anything. Romans 3 tells us that there is no one who seeks God, no one who understands, no one who does good - not even one.
I think the question really comes down to how one defines "free will". Free will does not mean that we are free to do anything. God has given us a certain realm to which we can exercise free will, but that free will does not go beyond that. What I mean is this: I have free will to watch a particular TV show, wear a certain shirt, choose what I will have for lunch, etc. Those are things that are within my scope of free will. Choosing salvation from God is beyond my scope of free will. Why? Because we're spiritually dead (Ephesians 2) and salvation from this death is out of our reach. God must first broaden our scope by making us alive before we can accept the free gift of salvation.
Hope that makes sense.
These are a few passages of scripture that demonstrates Gods incredible control and power over all events. God simply ordains the actions of man and uses our so called "free will" to fulfill His ultimate plan.
John 6: 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." You can't come to God UNLESS the Father grants it. Doesn't matter how much FREE WILL you have.
Psalm 139: 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. Our choices are well known of God...we just have a difficult time understanding that He knows them before we do.
Acts 4: 27"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. Bet you Pontius and Herod would agree that they were in full control of their actions...and they were. But, the good thing is that God was fully aware of what was in their hearts and used it to fulfill the ultimate Love Sacrifice, therefore, ultimately fulfilling who's will?...God's will.
Gal 1: 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,.....The Apostle Paul didn't seem to have a problem with God and understanding that it was His will that caused him to come to a place of saving grace. For Paul's "free will" was to persecute Jews.
You could go on mentioning others like John the Baptist who was called from his mothers womb to make straight the way for the Christ to come. Jeremiah the prophet (called from the womb), Moses whom God chose to free His people, the 12 Apostles chosen by Jesus (even the one who would betray Him), King David chosen by God to be King, and the list goes on.
All of these people mentioned have something in common. God's calling on their lives. If God said that He sent His Son to die for His people, then God will definitely have His people. Our "free wills" have no bearing on this and will always be affected by our sinful nature, even more so if we've not been regenerated, born again, made new or however you understand it.
Dogs will chose meat over and above a salad any day based on its nature. Much like we will chose to fulfill our desire over and above choosing God if it were left up to us. Bible says we're dead. As far as I can recollect, dead people can't make choices. Lazarus only responded to Jesus command to come forth because God brought life back into his lifeless body.
We are much the same. We cannot respond to God's calling less we be made alive, have the heart of stone replaced with the heart of flesh as the Prophet Ezekiel states and our minds renewed. "Free will" to do what?....I ask. To chose God? To make decisions of what to eat, where to go, what to watch on TV? I can agree that free will to make choices of simpler matters is understandable, but, free will is out the window when dealing with whether one chooses salvation or rejects it while yet being spiritually dead.
We all reject salvation....until that appointed day comes for the one whom God has called to enter in to His family as an adopted son of the Most High. Our thoughts then become God centered and our will is now inclined to do the things that please God. We as Christians would say that we do these things because of our love for God and with a great sense to do His will. In Christ I am freed from sins grip, free from condemnation, free from my sin debt and above all loved by God.
Because of being set free from all of these things, I have an overwhelming sense not to do my will, but to do His. Following my will is just going to land me outside of God's will because of the sinful nature that I still possess.
Is free will biblical? As long as you understand that free will only goes as far as circumstances allow you and ultimately God is in control of all of them. Really need to understand how you're defining FREE WILL and in what capacity you refer to it in everyday life in light of scripture.
John 6: 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." You can't come to God UNLESS the Father grants it. Doesn't matter how much FREE WILL you have.
Psalm 139: 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. Our choices are well known of God...we just have a difficult time understanding that He knows them before we do.
Acts 4: 27"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. Bet you Pontius and Herod would agree that they were in full control of their actions...and they were. But, the good thing is that God was fully aware of what was in their hearts and used it to fulfill the ultimate Love Sacrifice, therefore, ultimately fulfilling who's will?...God's will.
Gal 1: 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,.....The Apostle Paul didn't seem to have a problem with God and understanding that it was His will that caused him to come to a place of saving grace. For Paul's "free will" was to persecute Jews.
You could go on mentioning others like John the Baptist who was called from his mothers womb to make straight the way for the Christ to come. Jeremiah the prophet (called from the womb), Moses whom God chose to free His people, the 12 Apostles chosen by Jesus (even the one who would betray Him), King David chosen by God to be King, and the list goes on.
All of these people mentioned have something in common. God's calling on their lives. If God said that He sent His Son to die for His people, then God will definitely have His people. Our "free wills" have no bearing on this and will always be affected by our sinful nature, even more so if we've not been regenerated, born again, made new or however you understand it.
Dogs will chose meat over and above a salad any day based on its nature. Much like we will chose to fulfill our desire over and above choosing God if it were left up to us. Bible says we're dead. As far as I can recollect, dead people can't make choices. Lazarus only responded to Jesus command to come forth because God brought life back into his lifeless body.
We are much the same. We cannot respond to God's calling less we be made alive, have the heart of stone replaced with the heart of flesh as the Prophet Ezekiel states and our minds renewed. "Free will" to do what?....I ask. To chose God? To make decisions of what to eat, where to go, what to watch on TV? I can agree that free will to make choices of simpler matters is understandable, but, free will is out the window when dealing with whether one chooses salvation or rejects it while yet being spiritually dead.
We all reject salvation....until that appointed day comes for the one whom God has called to enter in to His family as an adopted son of the Most High. Our thoughts then become God centered and our will is now inclined to do the things that please God. We as Christians would say that we do these things because of our love for God and with a great sense to do His will. In Christ I am freed from sins grip, free from condemnation, free from my sin debt and above all loved by God.
Because of being set free from all of these things, I have an overwhelming sense not to do my will, but to do His. Following my will is just going to land me outside of God's will because of the sinful nature that I still possess.
Is free will biblical? As long as you understand that free will only goes as far as circumstances allow you and ultimately God is in control of all of them. Really need to understand how you're defining FREE WILL and in what capacity you refer to it in everyday life in light of scripture.