Is God immutable?

[JM]

This forum has been swamped with OSAS talk again, that’s a good thing I guess, but this discussion strikes at the very nature of God as revealed in the Bible...which brings us to the question, is God immutable?

immutable - not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature

Does God change His mind? Does God hate us as sinners then change His mind when we believe and then He loves us, only to change His mind again and hate us when we sin?

Something to think about.

~JM~

 

[Bick]

Hi JM. My opinion is that God is sovereign over the whole universe; that his plans, his purpose for the ages will happen.

I know there are scriptures that say "God repented" or "The Lord God changed His mind," but I believe he had men write that to, some how, bring Himself closer to humanity, in our understanding. This is particularly true in the OT.

There are many verses which speak of God having ears, eyes, a nose, a mouth; that he blows air through his nostrils; has feelings of anger, hapiness etc. I see them as metaphors.

When he said he "repented" of something, IMO, he knew what the outcome was before it happened, and it was part of His plans, to unfold His love for all creation.

Bick

 

[dancing queen]

Is there a verse describing Him as the same yesterday, today and forever?

Also, with the love and hate thing, what about He hates the sin but loves the sinner?

 

[William Putnam]

Is there a verse describing Him as the same yesterday, today and forever?

Two places in scripture.

1. At the burning bush - Ergo sum que sum "I am who am."
"
2. And when Jesus said, "Before Abraham came to be, I am."

For me, there is no more sucinct discription of the infinity of God. That God is timeless, otherwise we limit what God is. Therefore in our own minds, our perception of God is not God. That is because our minds are limited and cannot perceve God in His infinite glory.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Glory to God on high,
and on earth peace
to men of good will.
We praise you.
We bless you,
We adore you,
We glorify you,
We give you thanks
for your great glory;
Oh Lord God, Heavenly King,
God the Father Almighty!
Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten
Son;
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of
The Father;
Who takes away the sins of the world,
have mercy on us:
Who takes away the sins of the world.
receive our prayer;
Who sits at the right hand of the
Father, have mercy on us
For you alone are holy,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone, O Jesus Christ,
are most high,
Together with the Holy Spirit, in the
glory of God the Father.
Amen.

 

[mutzrein]

In Hebrews 13 it says, "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Is this what you were looking for?

 

[dancing queen]

Yes, thanks

 

[mutzrein]

Perhaps I should have pushed the point. While I agree that God also has these same attributes, scripture does not specifically put it in those terms. The reference is to Christ, rather than God.

Here we go . . .

 

[Solo]

Perhaps I should have pushed the point. While I agree that God also has these same attributes, scripture does not specifically put it in those terms. The reference is to Christ, rather than God.

Here we go . . .

We would not expect anything more from you. :wink:

 

[Lewis]

Malachi 3:6 (King James Version)

6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Sometimes it seems like God changes but He does not. Let me give you a for instance. Say a person is sick because God has sentenced them to death. And then all of a sudden they recover. It is because ogf God's mercy. Which belongs to Him. So because it belongs to Him and He created mercy. He has not changed. One case you can draw from is' Hezakiah' and there are others. But I think you get the point.

 

[Solo]

Malachi 3:6 (King James Version)

6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Sometimes it seems like God changes but He does not. Let me give you a for instance. Say a person is sick because God has sentenced them to death. And then all of a sudden they recover. It is because ogf God's mercy. Which belongs to Him. So because it belongs to Him and He created mercy. He has not changed. One case you can draw from is' Hezakiah' and there are others. But I think you get the point.

Those of us who know that Jesus Christ is God know that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Your verse substantiates that which we know.
Thanks for the good word, brother.

 

[Judy]

I think that in the cases where it says that God repented.."changed" He didn't change... His thoughts about sin and the punishment for sin are still the same. It is man that changes, if a sinner repents then God's punishment for sin no longer rest upon that man. He now sees this man through the light of Christ. I do believe OSAS, but just for this topic lets assume that a saved man changes his mind and no longer believes, the the wrath of God would be upon that man. But, it is not that God changed it is the man that changed.

 

[stranger]

Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father;
There is no shadow of turning with Thee;
Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not;
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be.

Great is Thy faithfulness!
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Morning by morning new mercies I see.
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided;
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me! ...

by Thomas Chisholm

In Christ: stranger

 

[Drew]

Is God immutable?immutable - not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature

Yes

Does God change His mind?

Yes

Does God hate us as sinners then change His mind when we believe and then He loves us, only to change His mind again and hate us when we sin?

No

How's that for brevity?

 

[Lewis]

I doubt that any Christian would deny the fact that God, being omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), could change His mind if He wished, but the question is: Does God ever change His mind? Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear – He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) so why would He ever need to change His mind?

 

[DISconect2]

So if God is immutable that simply means he does not or will not change. God hates sin and if he changed his mind about OSAS or what ever, it would then be a lie.... and God does not sin so therefore he does not lie.

But as Judy pointed out in her post

"I do believe OSAS, but just for this topic lets assume that a saved man changes his mind and no longer believes, the the wrath of God would be upon that man. But, it is not that God changed it is the man that changed."

It seems to me that the above statement could be sound if a saved man does turn his back and no longer believes in God. Then he would no longer be saved. I agree with Judy this would be the man changing but not God. This is such a complicated subject for me, I would love to believe in OSAS I just don't know I guess I am just straddling the fence on this.

This is very inportant for me and I Thank eveyone that contributes to these tough topics. I think I will shut up and listen.[/quote]

 

[unred typo]

I doubt that any Christian would deny the fact that God, being omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), could change His mind if He wished, but the question is: Does God ever change His mind? Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear – He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) so why would He ever need to change His mind?

God changes his mind many times. What doesn’t change is God’s character and his motives and his attributes. He will always be omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), with omniscient being cognizant of every particle of knowledge that can possibly be known in every place in the entire creation, including the thoughts and intents of every thinking and/or feeling creature, at every present moment of time. (the future not included because it does not exist now any more than the past exists still). He also is absolutely holy, (all righteous) and purest Love, (all merciful).

He knew us before we were born because we existed for about 9 months before we were born, and our substance was not hidden from him in the womb.

He changes his mind because man repents and receives mercy instead of judgment, or he sins and receives judgment instead of blessing. If this were not true the entire Bible is a farce and a lie, and the God of the Bible the biggest liar of all. Thankfully, this is not the case. When God says he wants you to repent and believe the gospel, he means it.
YESSSS!!!:-D

 

[JM]

Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear – He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5)....

:D

 

[Drew]

It is not at all clear that "the future" is an object of possible knowledge even for God. I think that this is part of what unred is saying and I agree. To anticipate scriptures that will be posted in response to this: please be open to a different conceptualiztion: one where an omnipotent God "plans" that certain things happen - not one where God knows a "future" whose very existence is dubious indeed. Does the future "exist"? I would say that it does not, and we take our own figures of speech (e.g. references to "a future") too seriously. The future does not exist any more than the past exists.

 

[JM]

Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear – He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5)....
:D

:D

 

[Drew]

If our working definition of "immutable" is

not subject or susceptible to change or variation in form or quality or nature

then there is no conceptual or logical problem with asserting that God is immutable on the one hand while also holding the view that God can change his mind on the other. If God created a world where he gives some "free will" to other agents (e.g. us), then He might indeed react to free will actions of people by changing his mind. His nature remains unchanged, but He reacts to things that He might not have foreknown (I find the Biblical case for God's exhaustive foreknowledge to be quite weak).

I think ascribing "immutability" to God is entirely consistent with also believing that He can change his mind - I am prepared to defend this position (which this post does not do in any depth). Since there is no "logical" or conceptual problem here, the person who believes that God is both immutable and never changes his mind has to make the case Biblically, rather than appeal to a non-existent logical contradiction between a God that is both immutable and never changes his mind.