Is God immutable?

[JM]

If our working definition of "immutable" is

then there is no conceptual or logical problem with asserting that God is immutable on the one hand while also holding the view that God can change his mind on the other. If God created a world where he gives some "free will" to other agents (e.g. us), then He might indeed react to free will actions of people by changing his mind. His nature remains unchanged, but He reacts to things that He might not have foreknown (I find the Biblical case for God's exhaustive foreknowledge to be quite weak).

I think ascribing "immutability" to God is entirely consistent with also believing that He can change his mind - I am prepared to defend this position (which this post does not do in any depth). Since there is no "logical" or conceptual problem here, the person who believes that God is both immutable and never changes his mind has to make the case Biblically, rather than appeal to a non-existent logical contradiction between a God that is both immutable and never changes his mind.

What Drew suggests is a noval idea, it doesn't have roots in Biblical or historic Christianity, it's OPEN THEISM.

God is perfect, that includes His knowledge of all things. Drew is saying God is not perfect, He changes His mind, which means His knowledge and judgement are not perfect since changing His mind is always for better or worse. Drew's man made god can error. Open theists will change the meaning of immutable from it's historical use in the Church to fit his system. Immutable means "not subject or susceptible to change" and the Church has always understood this truth as speaking to God's nature, will, knowledge, etc. Webster's of 1829 reads "IMMUTABLE, invariable; unalterable; not capable or susceptible of change." AND "IMMU'TABLY, adv. Unchangeably; unalterably; invariably; in a manner that admits of no change." AND "IMMUTABIL'ITY, Unchangeableness; the quality that renders change or alteration impossible; invariableness. Immutability is an attribute of God."

Quote from bible.ca
1. God is everywhere (omnipresent): Mk 5:10; Jude 6; Rev 20:1-3; 1 Ki 8:27; 2 Chron 2:6; 6:18; Isa 66:1; Acts 7:49; 17:27-28; Ps 139:7-13
2. God is all knowing (omniscient): Ps 139:1-6; Job 42:2; Acts 2:23; 1 Tim 1:17
3. God is all powerful (omnipotent): Gen 17:1; 35:11; Rom 13:1; 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 19:6

 

[Solo]

Foreknowledge of God & Open Theism

Open Theism is a theological construct which claims that God's highest goal is to enter into a reciprocal relationship with man. In this scheme, the Bible is interpreted without any anthropomorphisms - that is, all references to God's feelings, surprise and lack of knowledge are literal and the result of His choice to create a world where He can be affected/changed by man's choices. God's exhaustive knowledge does not include knowledge of future free will choices by mankind because they have not yet occurred.

One of the leading spokesman of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing how libertarian freedom trumps God's omniscience says, "Decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are potential--yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom ... The God of the Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future) that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate." (Pinnock, "Augustine to Arminius, " 25-26) Evangelicals cannot remain neutral in response to this unbiblical view.

Recommended book on Open Theism
No Other God by John Frame

The overriding presuppositions which open theists bring to the text are (1) libertarian freewill theism ["causeless choice"] (But can a natural man believe the gospel independent of the Holy Spirit? -- If not, I challenge Open Theists to tell me why not?) ... and (2) the Socinian belief that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future (i.e. that God is subject to part of his creation -"time"). Open Theists will also frequently point to biblical passages in which it is said that God changed his mind about something to prove his ignorance of future events. But usually it is the case that God is said to change His mind in sending judgment on people only after they repent of their sin. In Jeremiah 18:7-10 God simply shows that this type of relenting is a component of how He generally has decided to act:

• "If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it."

In other words, many prophesies of blessings and cursing are conditional. God has the authority to reverse his judgment at any time. depending on the response of those prophesied against. Such warnings have tacit conditions such as when Jonah declared that Ninevah would be destroyed, but judgment does not take place because they repented. Jonah knew that God would have mercy on them and this is one of the reasons he runs away from the task at first. The prophet is supposed to hold out God's covenant terms, blessing for obedience and cursing for disobedience. For more on this see Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions by Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr. (.pdf)

Article retrieved from http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... ledge.html


“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?â€Â
â€â€Numbers 23:19

“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.â€Â
â€â€1 Samuel 15:29

“Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.â€Â
â€â€Isaiah 46:9-11

"But what if the foreknowledge of God, and the liberty of the will cannot be reconcilled by man? Shall we therefore deny a perfection in God to support a liberty in ourselves? Shall we rather fasten ignorance upon God, and accuse Him of blindness to maintain our liberty?"
Discourses Upon the Existence and Attributes of God by Stephen Charnock

 

[Solo]

Good reading on the heresy of Open Theism at http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... ledge.html

Open Theism
The essential question of Open Theism is, “Does God know the future?â€Â. The overarching thesis of Open Theism is this --

God gave human beings a true free will.
If God knows the future, human beings cannot truly be free.
Therefore, God cannot know the future.
Of course to assume fallen man is free apart from grace is unbiblical and speculative (John 6:63). The primary failure of Open Theism is that it is an attempt to apeculate (outside of revelation) an infinite God with a finite mind. No, according to the Bible, God has not given mankind a “free will and their is no Biblical evidence to substantiate this. It is purely philosophical conjecture read into the Text.. Ask yourself, if fallen man is free, what is it that he is free from? Sin? No, he is in bondage to the corruption of nature until Christ sets Him free. Can a person believe the gospel apart from the work of the Holy Spirit? No, and so man has no "free will" unless Christ sets Him free. He is called and commanded to believe but He won't unless His hostility to God is disarmed, his eyes opened and his heart of stone turned to a heart of flesh. God is absolutely sovereign and knows the future and will have mercy on whom He will. (Rom 9:15, 16)

• 
  Series on Open Theism and God's Foreknowledge by John Piper[list:34188]
  [*]Does God Make Mistakes?
  [*]The Pleasure Of God In All He Does (Psalm 135:6) [/*:m:34188]
  [*]Is the Glory of God at Stake in God's Foreknowledge of Human Choices? [/*:m:34188]
  [*]Those Whom He Foreknew He Predestined [/*:m:34188]
  [*]Foreknown, Predestined, Conformed to Christ [/*:m:34188]
  [*]Answering Greg Boyd's Openness of God Texts[/*:m:34188]
  [*]How Does Open Theism Help Conceal our Hidden Idolatries[/*:m:34188]
  [*]The Enormous Ignorance of God When God Doesn't Know the Future Choices of Man[/*:m:34188]
  [*]Thomas Oden's Charge of Heresy Concerning the Denial of God's Foreknowledge[/*:m:34188]
  [*]God Does Not Repent Like a Man[/*:m:34188]
  [*]Pastoral Implications of Greg Boyd's View in Dealing with Suffering[/*:m:34188]
  [*]Resolution on the Foreknowledge of God: Reasons & Rationale (PDF) [/*:m:34188]
  [*]Response to the Packet of Material Sent out by Bethel College and Seminary [/*:m:34188]
  [*]Some Early Baptist Confessions of Faith Explicitly Disowned the "Openness" View[/*:m:34188]

[/*:m:34188][/list:u:34188]

 

[JM]

Nice work Solo and I must say, the avatar of you with the beard is striking and the reason why I started growing mine.

A quote from another forum, this lady knows her stuff.

Well as yet this is another idea that I used to believe in: that when Adam sinned everything in the world changed in a single moment and death entered. It was like that moment was the most powerful thing, the thing that changed everything. Something that wasn't planned by God or that happened only because of Adam alone and not Gods working behind the scenes. Its something that has always been taught since I was a child. Wasn't until sometime in Mayish of this year that I began thinking about this topic, and it was brought up at the conference as well. Course when someone challenges you, you start to read everything you can to see which one is right. I found some very interesting verses on the subject and now believe that what I was taught wasn't quite biblical. That it is more biblical to say that little changed except the fact that Adam came to know who he was.

The first main idea I think is perspective. Are we looking thru mans perspective on this issue, Adams perspective. If we look at it that way, through only what one would know through experience, it does seem like in that very moment when Adam sinned that everything changed and death entered the world. Does seem like from that perspective that one mans fall changed the outcome of everything.

However, there's another perspective that is more biblical that is Gods perspective. From God's perspective did this single event change everything? I'd say no. Because nothing gets by God.. God predetermined Adams fall. From Gods perspective nothing changed except that Adam realized who he was, which was still determined by God yet it was a change for Adam. I believe that Adam may have been blameless before tasting of the apple but that he already had that sinful nature in him. And when he disobeyed God he realized that their was the ability in him to sin. He realized his depravity and his need for a savior. God had this fall, had Christ being the savior all planned out from the foundations of the World. And our God does not change! Death didn't just all of sudden come about because one man sinned.. no death was going to happen, God had decreed that and that Christ would bring life. So NOTHING changed in God's perspective!! Death wasn't a change.. death was going to happen, even if that was not perceived by human eyes.

Here's some verses that I've read over and over to help understand these points:

Read all of Ezekiel 28, but specifically here's a passage for any of those quick readers on the forum:
Now before this it talks about in Ezekiel 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God" just for some context background

Ezekiel 28:15 " You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you"
..so unrighteousness was found in Adam, it was already there just hadn't manifested itself. Also other verses in NT talk about how no man is good, only God is good.. thus all men are sinners from the beginning. Just like Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

About God's immutability:
Malachi 3:6 " 'For I, the Lord, do not change...' " God doesn't change.. thus why would His creation change? His plans change? This was all planned from beginnning nothing changed here.. not even Adams disposition he was unrighteous from the beginning Adam just didn't know that till he sinned. Duh! Perspectives here.. God knew Adam was created a sinner, yet blameless till he sinned... Adam pry thought he was all perfect and such, and it was his sin that determined the fall, though rather God did.

And about how things were determined before the foundations of the world:
Eph 1:4, (NASB), just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb 4:3, (NASB), For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8, (NASB), All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

I think its cool when it says that God's works were finished from the foundation of the world. Before the world began God's works were done. Its hard to grasp that concept for humans.. but its true all was finished, thus Adams fall didn't change one ioda of a thing. God didn't change anything that He had finished from the foundations of the world.

 

[Solo]

Nice work Solo and I must say, the avatar of you with the beard is striking and the reason why I started growing mine.

I am trying to grow it long enough to comb up to cover up the scars!

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Should we not at the same time consider how fickle man is? Man is not omniscient. Nor omnipotent. We refuse to consider the conditions that God puts in His promises.

We understand the simple If/Then statement if we are talking about our computers...or when we want results from another person. If you want paid, then do your job. If you want to go to the beach, then clean up your room first.

When we don't get the results that we wanted with God, we begin to believe that it is God that is fickle. God who changes His ways. God who did not keep His promises.

When you seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, then you lay aside your will, your beliefs, your self righteousness and your unrighteousness. If you do this , then all these things are added unto you. A couple of keys here: the word "First". Not after all else has failed. "These things." Everything that Jesus had been talking about seeking right up to this point. Having these things added unto us suggests that we did not have these things prior to seeking His kingdom and His righteousness. Proverbs tells us over and over to seek wisdom, understanding and knowledge. When we do this, we discover just how faithful and true God is.

 

[Drew]

What Drew suggests is a noval idea, it doesn't have roots in Biblical or historic Christianity, it's OPEN THEISM.

I assume that you have an actual argument against open theism, over and above the mere assertion that it is unbiblical.

God is perfect, that includes His knowledge of all things. Drew is saying God is not perfect, He changes His mind, which means His knowledge and judgement are not perfect since changing His mind is always for better or worse.

Not true. If God decides, in his infinite wisdom, to allow free will agents in the world, then changing his mind may a simple reaction to these free will agents, not a manifestation of imperfection. Your argument would indeed work if there were no free will agents in the world - in that world, any change of God's mind would result in a "better" world (suggesting that God's earlier decision was imperfect) or in a "worse" world (which is obviously imperfect). However, no one has established the absence of other free will agents in the world. Free will agents can indeed create a need for God to change his mind in order to achieve his purposes.

Open theists will change the meaning of immutable from it's historical use in the Church to fit his system. Immutable means "not subject or susceptible to change" and the Church has always understood this truth as speaking to God's nature, will, knowledge, etc.

I would want to base a position on more than appeal to tradition.

 

[unred typo]

What Drew suggests is a noval idea, it doesn't have roots in Biblical or historic Christianity, it's OPEN THEISM.

*gasp* something new and very sinister…

A quote from another forum, this lady knows her stuff.
Its something that has always been taught since I was a child. Wasn't until sometime in Mayish of this year that I began thinking about this topic, and it was brought up at the conference as well. Course when someone challenges you, you start to read everything you can to see which one is right. I found some very interesting verses on the subject and now believe that what I was taught wasn't quite biblical….

*gasp* something not so new and sinister? Her proof verses lack a certain validity. She says; “" Now before this it talks about in Ezekiel 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God" just for some context background…You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you" ..so unrighteousness was found in Adam, it was already there just hadn't manifested itself.â€Â

What?? How does she take the “lamentation upon the king of Tyrus,†(and the Lord tells Ezekiel to tell it unto him,) and turn it into a statement against Adam and all of mankind? If he is anyone other than the actual king of Tyrus, (whose kingdom was situated actually over the place where Eden once was), then one might speculate that he represents Satan. The king of Tyrus may even be Satanically inspired or possessed. To apply that particular set of verses to the entire race of man is just unbelievably sloppy, and I don’t care how many theologians back her up.
Malachi 3 is more than a stretch, it’s out of context. When God tells Jacob (Israel) that he doesn’t change, therefore they are not consumed, he’s not saying he never will consume them but he will honor his covenant with Abraham and not completely eliminate them from the face of the earth. You can’t say this means that God can never change his mind, any more than you could say this means God never changes his socks. One has nothing to do with the other. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy theology.
:roll:

Quote from bible.ca
1. God is everywhere (omnipresent): Mk 5:10; Jude 6; Rev 20:1-3; 1 Ki 8:27; 2 Chron 2:6; 6:18; Isa 66:1; Acts 7:49; 17:27-28; Ps 139:7-13
2. God is all knowing (omniscient): Ps 139:1-6; Job 42:2; Acts 2:23; 1 Tim 1:17
3. God is all powerful (omnipotent): Gen 17:1; 35:11; Rom 13:1; 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 19:6

Which one of these says that God knows all the minute and major events of the future?
:-?

 

[Drew]

2. God is all knowing (omniscient): Ps 139:1-6; Job 42:2; Acts 2:23; 1 Tim 1:17

Considering the Psalm 139 material:
Ps 1139:1-6:

O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
You hem me inâ€â€behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

This is actually not a bad defence for the "God knows the future exhaustively" position. The sentence in bold seems to suggest that God knows in advance everything I will say.

However, the bolded text is entirely consistent with the assertion that God knows what we will say once we think it, but not necessarily before. This strikes me as plausible precisely because, if human free will exists (which I believe it does), it would make sense for that will to be exercized precisely at the point of some of "mental" act. By making a mental decision to "say x and not y", I exercise free will. Once I have made that commitment my contribution to the "way the world will be" is basically settled. All that remains is the more or less "mechanical act" of making the utterance I had, seconds ago, freely decided to make.

Once my free will has been exercised in respect to what I will utter, the utterance in question transitions from the domain of the merely possible to the domain of the settled. And I think that God, in his infinite wisdom, has created a world where He sometimes only knows possibilities. When free will agents have a role in turning such possibilities into a single reality, God may not know this in advance.

This may seem to make God a lesser God, but a more careful analysis reveals otherwise. It is God's ability to fulfill his plans, even without having "fully stacked the deck" that testifies to the riches of his sovereignty.

Note that what I am arguing for is indeed consistent with the statement "you perceive my thoughts from afar" - a "thought" is arguably the consequence of a free will act, not its antecedent. Admittedly, this is debatable. It seems to us that our free will decisions are arrived at through a process of "thought". I hope to return to this. For the present, I will state that my intuition is that the "thoughts" that God perceives are the by-products of free will decisions, not a constituting element of them. Complicated stuff, though.

 

[unred typo]

I agree with Drew. There is nothing in Psalm 139 that says that God knows the thoughts that we haven’t had yet. It says that God can read our minds no matter where we are. Yes, that means that he can be one step ahead of us in everything we do, doesn’t it. God is a dynamic force that cannot be thwarted and he can trump any card we lay down because he knows the cards we are holding and which one we decide to play and he has the ability to materialize any card he needs to accomplish his winning the game. He doesn’t need to control our thoughts and force us to always play the card he tells us to. He has all the resources he needs to control the final outcome of any game going. In reality, there is only one game and you can play on God’s side or Satan’s. Faith is betting that God is going to win. I believe it's a sure thing.
:-D

 

[unred typo]

Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear – He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5).…

Events that haven’t happened yet are not something to be known. There is nothing to be known. They are not events until they happen. God knows what he is going to do in the end of all things and how he will prevail over all evil. He knows all things that occur in every particle of his creation at any given moment, including the thoughts and intents of every creature and he knows all past events, all past thoughts, their implications and their consequences. He knows everything that could possibly be known. He knows that whatever he desires to make happen will happen and he knows how to deal with everything that happens that he has allowed to happen through free will actions of any creatures he has given free will to. That doesn't say he doesn't change his mind, in fact, there are many places where scripture says God did change his mind.

As for the fact that he knew us before we were born, that is a tiny thing for God to know. He can watch every cell as it divides and every bone that forms. Amazing but not astounding, and foreknowledge such as this is not saying that he knows every act that will occur by our will in the future. You’re reading your own theology, actually sci-fi, into this text. The future is not a place we can travel to or come back from and neither can God. If it was ‘there,’ he would be ‘there’ and know it but it’s not there, it doesn‘t exist YET, that‘s why we call it the future. If it existed already, it would be the past. It only exists in God’s mind as plans and his expected ends, which are not going to change if he says they won’t.


I repeat, which one of these says that God knows all the infinitesimal and major events of the future? Certainly none of the following:


Job 42:2 I know that you can do every thing, and that no thought can be withheld from you.
IOW, God knows our thoughts as soon as we think them and we can’t hide our thoughts or intentions from him.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
This involves God’s plans for the future. He knows before they happen what men are planning and plotting and he knows how to use them and their actions to accomplish what he wants done. This is not to say that all things are pre determined by him or foreknown by him. God has never claimed this for himself and it is a figment of your imagination, that causes some really bizarre theology.


1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

This only says that God is the only wise God, and no one here disagrees with that, but it doesn’t say all things future are known beforehand by him.

:fadein:

 

[TanNinety]

He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5).…

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

Why is it that half a verse from Jeremiah 1:5 is applied to God knew everyone of us before we were born and the rest of the half left out? Is it because it leads to a logical conclusion that God knew ALL of humanity before we were born and appointed ALL of humanity to be prophet to the nations? Oh no, we cant have that. The subject of first half of the verse is humanity but the second half of the verse miraculously only refers to Jeremiah?

 

[Solo]

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

Why is it that half a verse from Jeremiah 1:5 is applied to God knew everyone of us before we were born and the rest of the half left out? Is it because it leads to a logical conclusion that God knew ALL of humanity before we were born and appointed ALL of humanity to be prophet to the nations? Oh no, we cant have that. The subject of first half of the verse is humanity but the second half of the verse miraculously only refers to Jeremiah?

If all individuals were recognized in the Bible you wouldn't be able to carry it around. In other words, if Jeremiah wrote of God's knowing each one of them and their lot in life it would be ignorant, for example, Jeremiah could have written, "Before I formed you in the womb, TanNinety, I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a heretic believing the lie of Open Theism in front of the entire 123 Christian forum."

 

[unred typo]

Jeremiah 1:4-5 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

God is telling Jeremiah that he knew everything that went into his form, including the DNA of his cells. God liked what he saw and chose to use this man to preach. God could see his nature would be tender. A good dog breeder can tell you what a dog’s traits will be by the genes that go into his breeding, and that‘s not even divine omniscience. God can see all our DNA and interpret all those miles of genetic code before we are born or even formed. This is not to say that he has ordained us to be saved or not or that he has determined the fate of all the persons that could conceivably be born. If that were true, why doesn’t the Bible simply say that? You’re making this stuff up from silly deductions that have no real logical support.

 

[Solo]

Jeremiah 1:4-5 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.

God is telling Jeremiah that he knew everything that went into his form, including the DNA of his cells. God liked what he saw and chose to use this man to preach. God could see his nature would be tender. A good dog breeder can tell you what a dog’s traits will be by the genes that go into his breeding, and that‘s not even divine omniscience. God can see all our DNA and interpret all those miles of genetic code before we are born or even formed. This is not to say that he has ordained us to be saved or not or that he has determined the fate of all the persons that could conceivably be born. If that were true, why doesn’t the Bible simply say that? You’re making this stuff up from silly deductions that have no real logical support.

But it could be that God knows who will all be saved, and that those that are were appointed to be just that. You will know one day.
By the way, how many hairs are on your head? Do you suppose that God knew that at the foundation of the world or not?

 

[JM]

I think that in the cases where it says that God repented.."changed" He didn't change... His thoughts about sin and the punishment for sin are still the same. It is man that changes, if a sinner repents then God's punishment for sin no longer rest upon that man. He now sees this man through the light of Christ. I do believe OSAS, but just for this topic lets assume that a saved man changes his mind and no longer believes, the the wrath of God would be upon that man. But, it is not that God changed it is the man that changed.

 

[TanNinety]

If all individuals were recognized in the Bible you wouldn't be able to carry it around. In other words, if Jeremiah wrote of God's knowing each one of them and their lot in life it would be ignorant, for example, Jeremiah could have written, "Before I formed you in the womb, TanNinety, I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a heretic believing the lie of Open Theism in front of the entire 123 Christian forum."

You still did not answer my question. Let me rephrase it.
Just an Example:
If I say to Solo, "You sir are an idiot. You will go stand in the corner". Can you deduce that I said the whole of humanity are a bunch of idiots and in the latter part of my sentence only singled out Solo to stand in the corner?

But this is exactly what you are trying to do with Jeremiah 1:5. "You" in the first half of the sentence refers to humanity but "You" in the second half of the same sentence refers to Jeremiah?

 

[unred typo]

But it could be that God knows who will all be saved, and that those that are were appointed to be just that. You will know one day.
By the way, how many hairs are on your head? Do you suppose that God knew that at the foundation of the world or not?

He probably hadn’t determined what my body would be like even if my soul had any existence before it was given life. Are there souls waiting to be born? Were they created in Adam? I have more questions than answers. I’m not 100% certain of a lot of these issues but I’m not going to be dogmatic about things that aren’t specified either. He knows the number of hairs on my head right now and before I had my shower and how many I lost when I combed it. He probably knows how many are on my dog and how many of those are on my chair, and he can probably tell how many of those will most likely fall out in the next seven hours. Your point is?

If God knew who would be saved before he created them, he would have only created those people. Anything less would be cruel and unusual for a God claiming to be ‘love.’ I would rather believe what I believe and be wrong than believe some of these other heresies that make God to be some kind of ghoulish monster. I would not want to stand before his throne and confess that I thought he had created people knowing that they would burn forever in hell when he could have just as easily saved them. How demented.
:o

 

[unred typo]

Will you grow enough beard to cover that gap in your face?
:-D

 

[Jon-Marc]

I haven't read all the pages on this subject and don't know if this was mentioned. In Genesis 6:7 just before God destroys the world with the flood, He says, "it repenteth me that I have made them."

I have always believed (and still do) that God knows everything that will happen before it happens, and yet this makes it sound as though He didn't know and was sorry that He created man. While God's character cannot change, apparently He can change His mind.