Is God the only one who can forgive sin?

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus told the disciples...

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:23 NASB)

Do you think Jesus was giving mere mortals the power to forgive and save people?

I'm not asking if people were forgiven their sins when they forgave them, and not forgiven if they didn't forgive them. The passage itself answers that question. I'm asking who's power actually did the forgiving, the disciples', or God's?

 

[for_his_glory]

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I believe your answer is in this verse as the Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of God.

 

[Knotical]

Forgive people? Yes. Save them? No.

Salvation can only come from one place. We may be able to point them in the right direction, but we are not able to save people.

 

[iLOVE]

Jesus told the disciples...

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:23 NASB)

Do you think Jesus was giving mere mortals the power to forgive and save people?

I'm not asking if people were forgiven their sins when they forgave them, and not forgiven if they didn't forgive them. The passage itself answers that question. I'm asking who's power actually did the forgiving, the disciples', or God's?

In its simplest form means that when the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and accepted by sinners, the Preacher of the Gospel, or any Believer for that matter, can announce unequivocally to the new Believer that all his sins are"remitted,"i.e., forgiven.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus told the disciples...

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:23 NASB)

Do you think Jesus was giving mere mortals the power to forgive and save people?

I'm not asking if people were forgiven their sins when they forgave them, and not forgiven if they didn't forgive them. The passage itself answers that question. I'm asking who's power actually did the forgiving, the disciples', or God's?

I believe Jesus/God gave this authority only to the apostles that He personally chose then and probably to Paul later.
Like glory said, He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit.

 

[Obadiah]

I believe Jesus/God gave this authority only to the apostles that He personally chose then and probably to Paul later.
Like glory said, He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit.

This was actually part of a Bible study I was in just last night lead by a very knowledgeable pastor. His explanation agrees with what you said here. He said the original Apostles (which included Paul) were given this authority because scripture had not yet been completed at that time, so it was the Apostles who would have the authority to make these decisions under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once scripture was complete (much of which was future letters written by these Apostles) this changed. The completed scripture, the inspired word of God, was where this authority would lay, not on any person.

 

[Deborah13]

This was actually part of a Bible study I was in just last night lead by a very knowledgeable pastor. His explanation agrees with what you said here. He said the original Apostles (which included Paul) were given this authority because scripture had not yet been completed at that time, so it was the Apostles who would have the authority to make these decisions under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once scripture was complete (much of which was future letters written by these Apostles) this changed. The completed scripture, the inspired word of God, was where this authority would lay, not on any person.

Thanks for the affirmation. What the pastor said makes sense to me.

 

[Edward]

Jesus told the disciples...

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:23 NASB)

Do you think Jesus was giving mere mortals the power to forgive and save people?

I'm not asking if people were forgiven their sins when they forgave them, and not forgiven if they didn't forgive them. The passage itself answers that question. I'm asking who's power actually did the forgiving, the disciples', or God's?

Whoa. You ask good questions brother. When I read the title of the thread I was like, huh, trick question, lol. But reading the post...A slew of scriptures come to mind which validates the question. Without reading the rest of the thread, here I go. This is what came to mind, I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just saying, pondering this question brought these scriptures to mind.

Matthew 18:18
18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God./

1 Corinthians 2:13-16
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

The short answer is yes, God is the only one who can forgive sins unto redemption. But if we believe, and are in Christ, and Christ in us, and are led of the Spirit, it could be loosely said that we can, but it is really Christ in us which effects it. But we are of the body and so in a manner of speaking make it happen, nay, allow it to happen is a better way to say it.

Like the laying on of hands to heal, we cause it to happen but are not the source of the power to do it, yet it couldn't be done without our participation. (It could, but God likes for us to participate). We who have the mind of Christ and walk in Christ play a big part in Gods work here. We have been given authority in Christ, who has been given all authority over this world. We have been give a commission, as were the disciples. Most of our personal authority is to go into the world and preach the gospel message, but in certain instances, it could certainly extend to speaking the forgiveness unto someone.

The forgiveness is certainly our own forgiveness from our own heart unto another, which is within the will of God. If you bind this upon earth, it will certainly be bound in heaven. We have to understand and walk in the fact that this is in love, and is an attribute of becoming love, as is God and that we shall walk in it. This does not mean that we have the authority to go around condemning people. This would be a dangerous perspective to hold for with what judgment we mete out, it shall be measured unto us again. For us to be able to righteously condemn another would be a situation which would not arise often if at all because God is not willing that any should perish and His love covers a multitude of sins. Something that the carnal mind cannot grasp.

I think. lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whoa. You ask good questions brother. When I read the title of the thread I was like, huh, trick question, lol. But reading the post...A slew of scriptures come to mind which validates the question. Without reading the rest of the thread, here I go. This is what came to mind, I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just saying, pondering this question brought these scriptures to mind.

Matthew 18:18
18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God./

1 Corinthians 2:13-16
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

The short answer is yes, God is the only one who can forgive sins unto redemption. But if we believe, and are in Christ, and Christ in us, and are led of the Spirit, it could be loosely said that we can, but it is really Christ in us which effects it. But we are of the body and so in a manner of speaking make it happen, nay, allow it to happen is a better way to say it.

Like the laying on of hands to heal, we cause it to happen but are not the source of the power to do it, yet it couldn't be done without our participation. (It could, but God likes for us to participate). We who have the mind of Christ and walk in Christ play a big part in Gods work here. We have been given authority in Christ, who has been given all authority over this world. We have been give a commission, as were the disciples. Most of our personal authority is to go into the world and preach the gospel message, but in certain instances, it could certainly extend to speaking the forgiveness unto someone.

The forgiveness is certainly our own forgiveness from our own heart unto another, which is within the will of God. If you bind this upon earth, it will certainly be bound in heaven. We have to understand and walk in the fact that this is in love, and is an attribute of becoming love, as is God and that we shall walk in it. This does not mean that we have the authority to go around condemning people. This would be a dangerous perspective to hold for with what judgment we mete out, it shall be measured unto us again. For us to be able to righteously condemn another would be a situation which would not arise often if at all because God is not willing that any should perish and His love covers a multitude of sins. Something that the carnal mind cannot grasp.

I think. lol.

You nailed it, IMO.

 

[Edward]

You nailed it, IMO.

Thanks brother, and good morning to you.

I think this is also along the same line as the scriptures which speak of, blessing a house with peace when you enter therein, and it also gives a reason that one would revoke the blessing also (forget exactly what, too early still, lol).

Back in OT days, the blessing from the father of the house was a very serious thing. So serious that it was even at times schemed for, remember? That's some serious stuff to give blessings to another by the spoken word. Our modern society has turned "bless you" into a cliche that has lost it's meaning. But it was not always so. When I bless people, I do it from the heart and mean it.

 

[eddif]

Matthew 5:23-24
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

John 8:10-11
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Evidently the message is if the accuser stops accusing: then forgiveness flows from Jesus. In the John passage Jesus writing turned the accusers away. An extension of that is our removing our accusations against someone.

I will leave this as our personal area; till I think of another scripture. Of course church discipline is broader and may work outside the personal area.

eddif

 

[JLB]

This was actually part of a Bible study I was in just last night lead by a very knowledgeable pastor. His explanation agrees with what you said here. He said the original Apostles (which included Paul) were given this authority because scripture had not yet been completed at that time, so it was the Apostles who would have the authority to make these decisions under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once scripture was complete (much of which was future letters written by these Apostles) this changed. The completed scripture, the inspired word of God, was where this authority would lay, not on any person.

So, the command to His disciples to make disciples, ended after the 12 and Paul made disciples?


Personally the command to make disciples is just what the Lord told to mankind in the garden.

This work was cut short, when the Image became corrupt within Adam.

Jesus came to restore this image in mankind, so the work of being fruitful and multiplying could continue.

It was the Lord's intention that fruitfulness was to multiply.

After the Image of God was lost in Adam and Eve, then they could not reproduce that image.

We know from the New Testament, that it is the Image of Christ that we are to be transformed into.

Remember it was Adam that was declared to be God's son.

Now that the Image has been restored to mankind through Jesus Christ, the work of reproducing that which is fruitful can continue.

Jesus is the Standard of fruitfulness.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5


We are to reproduce the Seed.

The Sower sows the seed.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-13


Until we grow up into Him... to the fulness of Christ, there will be Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Thanks brother, and good morning to you.

I think this is also along the same line as the scriptures which speak of, blessing a house with peace when you enter therein, and it also gives a reason that one would revoke the blessing also (forget exactly what, too early still, lol).

Back in OT days, the blessing from the father of the house was a very serious thing. So serious that it was even at times schemed for, remember? That's some serious stuff to give blessings to another by the spoken word. Our modern society has turned "bless you" into a cliche that has lost it's meaning. But it was not always so. When I bless people, I do it from the heart and mean it.

You nailed it, IMO.

I agree with your post!

But, I believe there is a process to being granted the same authority that the Apostles had.

I don't believe "baby" Christians who just got saved, are qualified to walk in that kind of authority.

Jesus spoke those word's to those men whom He Himself spent 3 1/2 years with personally.

There's quite a lot to discuss along these lines, however I agree with the assessment you guys are seeing.

Be Blessed!


JLB

 

[Edward]

I think you're probably right about that brother.

 

[Obadiah]

So, the command to His disciples to make disciples, ended after the 12 and Paul made disciples?


Personally the command to make disciples is just what the Lord told to mankind in the garden.

This work was cut short, when the Image became corrupt within Adam.

Jesus came to restore this image in mankind, so the work of being fruitful and multiplying could continue.

It was the Lord's intention that fruitfulness was to multiply.

After the Image of God was lost in Adam and Eve, then they could not reproduce that image.

We know from the New Testament, that it is the Image of Christ that we are to be transformed into.

Remember it was Adam that was declared to be God's son.

Now that the Image has been restored to mankind through Jesus Christ, the work of reproducing that which is fruitful can continue.

Jesus is the Standard of fruitfulness.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5


We are to reproduce the Seed.

The Sower sows the seed.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-13


Until we grow up into Him... to the fulness of Christ, there will be Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers.


JLB

I think you must have meant this answer for someone else's post or maybe even another thread, but not for my post that you quoted. I said nothing of the command to make disciples ending, neither did the OP, and neither did the pastor I was referring to. Soooo, back to topic;

Jesus told the disciples...

23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:23 NASB)

Do you think Jesus was giving mere mortals the power to forgive and save people?

I'm not asking if people were forgiven their sins when they forgave them, and not forgiven if they didn't forgive them. The passage itself answers that question. I'm asking who's power actually did the forgiving, the disciples', or God's?

 

[JLB]

Obadiah said -

I think you must have meant this answer for someone else's post or maybe even another thread, but not for my post that you quoted. I said nothing of the command to make disciples ending, neither did the OP, and neither did the pastor I was referring to. Soooo, back to topic;

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I thought you were insinuating that there were no more Apostles after the original 12, since we now have the scriptures.

Because the only way I see for there to be Disciples made were from Apostles, of those in whom Jesus authorized to reproduce His life in others.

In other words, the original 12 were to reproduce what Jesus produced in them, and the for their disciples to continue the process.



JLB

 

[Obadiah]

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I thought you were insinuating that there were no more Apostles after the original 12, since we now have the scriptures.

Because the only way I see for there to be Disciples made were from Apostles, of those in whom Jesus authorized to reproduce His life in others.

In other words, the original 12 were to reproduce what Jesus produced in them, and the for their disciples to continue the process.



JLB

No, not at all. The point that the pastor made that I was referring to was only about the apostles being given the power to forgive or not forgive. He said that was given to the original apostles only because all of scripture hadn't been recorded yet, so therefore all of the instructions God had for us as New Testament Christians wasn't known yet. That's why he entrusted the apostles with this power (under the Holy Spirit) to essentially tell someone they were wrong and decide if they would be forgiven or not, I assume depending on their repenting or not. Once scripture was complete all Christians had access to the information on what was sin and what wasn't, so now that we have all been told, we go directly to God to ask forgiveness rather than relying on an apostle to grant it. The way he explained this had nothing to do with the command to evangelize or with leading someone to the Lord and then telling them their sins were now forgiven. That's simply information we can give them about what God has done for them based on what we know from scripture, not a special power in some person to withhold or grant forgiveness to the new Christian.

 

[JLB]

Obadiah said -

Once scripture was complete all Christians had access to what was sin and what wasn't, so now that we have all been told, we go directly to God to ask forgiveness rather than relying on an apostle to grant it.

Thanks for the clarification.

Although we still can go to each other to confess our sins and receive forgiveness as priests.

We all who have the Holy Spirit have this power as priest's.


16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. James 5:16


JLB

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks for the clarification.

Although we still can go to each other to confess our sins and receive forgiveness as priests.

We all who have the Holy Spirit have this power as priest's.


16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. James 5:16


JLB

That's a different thing than what he was talking about. While it's true that we are supposed to confess our sins to each other (especially if your sin harmed the particular person you are confessing to) and to pray for each other, I don't believe we have any authority in and of ourselves to decide whether that person's sin is forgiven by God or not. If the sin harmed me in some way, I can decide whether or not I'm going to personally forgive the person for what they did to me (and even that is dictated by scripture if I choose to follow it), but that has no bearing on whether or not God forgives them.

I mean, think about it. If you are a modern day apostle and I do something that is a sin (Lets say I do some shoplifting...), that would mean that rather than going to God for forgiveness, I would have to go to you, and whether or not I was forgiven would depend on what you decided, not what God decided. None of us have that power today. I know Catholic priests believe they have it, but I don't believe that's true.

 

[JLB]

That's a different thing than what he was talking about. While it's true that we are supposed to confess our sins to each other (especially if your sin harmed the particular person you are confessing to) and to pray for each other, I don't believe we have any authority in and of ourselves to decide whether that person's sin is forgiven by God or not. If the sin harmed me in some way, I can decide whether or not I'm going to personally forgive the person for what they did to me (and even that is dictated by scripture if I choose to follow it), but that has no bearing on whether or not God forgives them.

In and of ourselves, No!

As a priest who has the Holy Spirit, and as led by the Spirit, Yes.


JLB