[__ Science __ ] Is Historical Science Useful?

[Barbarian]

Scripture speaks of creation by the spoken Word of God. Thus Scripture is against any evolution.

Scripture says that life was brought forth by the earth, among other things. And of course, as you know, evolution is constantly oberved. Remember what biological evolution is.

Your science wants to find evolution in something today as it knows it cannot test it's theory of evolution concerning man and creation.

It can be tested in many ways. For example, Darwin, based on his theory, predicted that early forms of humans would first be found in Africa. This has been repeatedly verified.

Evolutionary theory predicted that African apes would be genetically closer to humans than any other animals. This has since been verified.

Evolutionary theory predicted the existence of transitional forms between other apes and humans. This has since been verified.

What matters is the effort of people like yourself to compromise with the Word of God and bow to science.

Most Christians accept that evolution is consistent with scripture. We just don't accept your compromise with scripture.

Of course it matters. Do you think God cares about His people denying His Word?

He doesn't care at all if you don't accept the way He created living things. He makes it very clear what will determine your eternal home, and approving of the way He created life isn't one of them. So I don't have to be concerned about your salvation; do what He says is necessary, and that's all you need.

And no, science doesn't rule out miracles. So the virgin birth, the Resurrection, and the miraculous healing of people is not a problem for science.

Just don't make an idol of your personal doctrines, and you'll be fine.

 

[crossnote]

Exodus 20:9-11 (NASB) "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Guess God lies according to the billion year account of evolution.

 

[Edward]

Scripture also speaks of nature producing the variety of living things. Which is entirely consistent with evolution. As you know, evolution is constantly observed happening in nature.

You keep saying this, and I don't know what you mean by it. Give me an example that I can go outside and look at.

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

So what are you saying, that creation isn't over yet? After their kind suggests no changes. No modifications. No evolving into something different.

 

[Edward]

Most Christians accept that evolution is consistent with scripture. We just don't accept your compromise with scripture.

Not me.

Show me where in scripture it speaks of evolution.

 

[Barbarian]

Not me.

Show me where in scripture it speaks of evolution.

The same place where it speaks of protons.

Scripture doesn't mention evolution or protons, but it's completely compatible with those things. Both of which have been observed, so it's not surprising that they are consistent with scripture.

 

[Barbarian]

So what are you saying, that creation isn't over yet?

Is a human being a creature of God? If so, creation continues. We keep getting new human beings.

 

[Barbarian]

You keep saying this, and I don't know what you mean by it. Give me an example that I can go outside and look at.

Sure. Remember what evolution is. It's "descent with modification" or more precisely, "a change in allele frequency in a population over time."

The evolution of a new digestive organ in a transplanted population of lizards:

Italian wall lizards introduced to a tiny island off the coast of Croatia are evolving in ways that would normally take millions of years to play out, new research shows.

In just a few decades the 5-inch-long (13-centimeter-long) lizards have developed a completely new gut structure, larger heads, and a harder bite, researchers say.

In 1971, scientists transplanted five adult pairs of the reptiles from their original island home in Pod Kopiste to the tiny neighboring island of Pod Mrcaru, both in the south Adriatic Sea.

Genetic testing on the Pod Mrcaru lizards confirmed that the modern population of more than 5,000 Italian wall lizards are all descendants of the original ten lizards left behind in the 1970s.
...
Pod Mrcaru, for example, had an abundance of plants for the primarily insect-eating lizards to munch on. Physically, however, the lizards were not built to digest a vegetarian diet.

Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.

"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," Irschick said, adding it was something that had not been documented before. "This was a brand-new structure."

Along with the ability to digest plants came the ability to bite harder, powered by a head that had grown longer and wider.

The rapid physical evolution also sparked changes in the lizard's social and behavioral structure, he said. For one, the plentiful food sources allowed for easier reproduction and a denser population.

The lizard also dropped some of its territorial defenses, the authors concluded. Such physical transformation in just 30 lizard generations takes evolution to a whole new level, Irschick said. It would be akin to humans evolving and growing a new appendix in several hundred years, he said.

"That's unparalleled. What's most important is how fast this is," he said.

Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island

The changes should take millions of years-but these creatures are doing it in mere decades.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[Barbarian]

You may already know how the evolution of a new species happens. Two or more populations of one species have to be separated from each other, such as is the case with Darwin's finches in the Galapagos.
Various populations of the same species of bird divided onto different islands, and because of this isolation they eventually evolved apart into different species.

In recent research, maggots provided evidence that the separate evolution that is the forerunner of new species does not have to be geographical or physical. You see, apple maggots were originally hawthorn maggots.
Apples weren't introduced into North America until around 250 years ago, and some time after that, some of the hawthorn maggots shifted from feeding on hawthorn to feeding on apples, separating the maggots into two races.

The hawthorn and apple trees occupy the same lands though, so the two kinds of maggots were never physically separated. In fact, they're still the same species. By looking at them, you can't tell them apart.
However, the structure of their proteins and the food they prefer makes them quite different, clearly on their way to becoming new species. Their food preferences are so strong that scientists cannot lure them to the wrong fruit.
This goes for mating too, which occurs on the fruit. Because the two maggots are still the same species they are capable of mating together, but they don't. It's probably only a matter of time before the maggots do evolve into different species.

Maggot Evolution

Learn about maggot evolution on this Moment of Science.

indianapublicmedia.org

 

[Barbarian]

Most modern Tibetans have a mutation of the EPAS1 gene that gives them the ability to live healthy lives at very high altitudes. Tibetans are genetically very much like Han Chinese, but few Han Chinese have this mutation. The Tibetans evolved this adaptation which makes it possible to live on the very high Tibetan Plateau.

Evidence indicates that it evolved in a few thousand years.

Two functional loci in the promoter of EPAS1 gene involved in high-altitude adaptation of Tibetans

EPAS1 involves in the hypoxic response and is suggested to be responsible for the genetic adaptation of high-altitude hypoxia in Tibetans. However, the detailed molecular mechanism remains unknown. In this study, a single nucleotide polymorphism rs56721780:G>C ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Barbarian]

Understanding the physiology and genetics of human hypoxia tolerance has important medical implications, but this phenomenon has thus far only been investigated in high-altitude human populations. Another system, yet to be explored, is humans who engage in breath-hold diving. The indigenous Bajau people (“Sea Nomads”) of Southeast Asia live a subsistence lifestyle based on breath-hold diving and are renowned for their extraordinary breath-holding abilities. However, it is unknown whether this has a genetic basis. Using a comparative genomic study, we show that natural selection on genetic variants in the PDE10A gene have increased spleen size in the Bajau, providing them with a larger reservoir of oxygenated red blood cells. We also find evidence of strong selection specific to the Bajau on BDKRB2, a gene affecting the human diving reflex. Thus, the Bajau, and possibly other diving populations, provide a new opportunity to study human adaptation to hypoxia tolerance.

DEFINE_ME

 

[Quantrill]

Scripture also speaks of nature producing the variety of living things. Which is entirely consistent with evolution. As you know, evolution is constantly observed happening in nature.


God says that He used created things to bring forth life. That's what He says:

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

God does most things by using nature in our world. You are a creature of God and He used natural means to create your body. Your soul, of course was given directly by Him.

And remember, evolution is a change in allele frequencies in a population over time, and that is continuously observed to happen. I think common descent is what you object to. AIG allows common descent to a limited degree, usually drawing the line at new families or orders of living things.

As I know? I know nothing of the sort. As I said, science must see 'evolution' somewhere to support it's theory of the evolution of man.

Nature producing does not mean nature is the origin. And nature is not the means. And nature does not produce by what science wants to call evolution. There is no evolution.

No. Created things do not bring forth life. Concerning (Gen. 1:24), the earth did not produce any living thing. God did. As I said, just because God made man out of the dust of the earth, doesn't give power to the earth to produce anything. (Gen. 2:19)

When you say God used 'natural means, you are implying evolutionary means as opposed to direct creation. And that is not so. God used natural substance, the dust of the earth, to create man, and not by any evolutionary method. And, just because you can have children born to you, doesn't mean you have produced life.

Thus neither the land or waters produce life. God created creatures adapted for land, sea, and air. They breed and produce after their kind. Their kind is already established by God. (Gen. 1:24)

I reject evolution in any form science wants to make it. If you want to define 'evolution' in a way in which it is no longer evolution, then don't use the term evolution. But you and I both know, evolution is what you and science are trying to impose on mankind. And you are trying to give it some credibility finding some support in the Bible. But it is not there.

Now, the Flood, Joshua's long day, Jonah and the whale, the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Resurrection of Christ...are these literally true or not? Or are they just symbolic and figurative truth?

Quantrill

 

[Edward]

Sure. Remember what evolution is. It's "descent with modification" or more precisely, "a change in allele frequency in a population over time."

The evolution of a new digestive organ in a transplanted population of lizards:

Italian wall lizards introduced to a tiny island off the coast of Croatia are evolving in ways that would normally take millions of years to play out, new research shows.

In just a few decades the 5-inch-long (13-centimeter-long) lizards have developed a completely new gut structure, larger heads, and a harder bite, researchers say.

In 1971, scientists transplanted five adult pairs of the reptiles from their original island home in Pod Kopiste to the tiny neighboring island of Pod Mrcaru, both in the south Adriatic Sea.

Genetic testing on the Pod Mrcaru lizards confirmed that the modern population of more than 5,000 Italian wall lizards are all descendants of the original ten lizards left behind in the 1970s.
...
Pod Mrcaru, for example, had an abundance of plants for the primarily insect-eating lizards to munch on. Physically, however, the lizards were not built to digest a vegetarian diet.

Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.

"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," Irschick said, adding it was something that had not been documented before. "This was a brand-new structure."

Along with the ability to digest plants came the ability to bite harder, powered by a head that had grown longer and wider.

The rapid physical evolution also sparked changes in the lizard's social and behavioral structure, he said. For one, the plentiful food sources allowed for easier reproduction and a denser population.

The lizard also dropped some of its territorial defenses, the authors concluded. Such physical transformation in just 30 lizard generations takes evolution to a whole new level, Irschick said. It would be akin to humans evolving and growing a new appendix in several hundred years, he said.

"That's unparalleled. What's most important is how fast this is," he said.

Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island

The changes should take millions of years-but these creatures are doing it in mere decades.

www.nationalgeographic.com

That isn't something that I can observe. 1971? I thought you said (as I know!) evolution is constantly observable. None of what you wrote is constantly observable, you prolly got your info from a book and if we're resorting to books then I'll stand on the word of God.

I asked you to give me an example of constantly observed that I can go outside and see. And/or some scriptures. Your reply was 110 paragraphs of scientific doubletalk.

 

[Barbarian]

That isn't something that I can observe.

But it's true. The apple maggot fly was noticed to have evolved in the last 200 years. It probably is a new species, because even though the old population could breed with the new, they don't. Speciation is reproductive isolation.

BTW, most creationist organizations do not deny the evolution of new species, genera, and often families. They just redefined "evolution" to mean "evolution so extensive, it can't be observed in a human lifetime." But as you see, the scientific definition of biological evolution includes all evolution, not just that above the level of families.

Your reply was 110 paragraphs of scientific doubletalk.

I'm just showing you the facts. Evolution is a reality. You can go out and observe the apple maggot fly in apple orchards, a species that didn't exist in the historical past.

Or you could take it from Answers in Genesis, which openly acknowledges the fact of speciation.

 

[Barbarian]

As I know? I know nothing of the sort. As I said, science must see 'evolution' somewhere to support it's theory of the evolution of man.

Nature producing does not mean nature is the origin.

Quite so. Just because God uses nature to create things does not mean He is not the Creator. Nature is just His tool in these things.

When you say God used 'natural means, you are implying evolutionary means as opposed to direct creation.

Can't get more direct than evolution. As God says, He used nature to bring forth life. And yes, that doesn't mean nature is the origin. God made nature for that purpose. He is the origin of all things.

Now, the Flood, Joshua's long day, Jonah and the whale, the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Resurrection of Christ...are these literally true or not? Or are they just symbolic and figurative truth?

Since the virgin birth and the Resurrection are presented as historical facts, it's clear that they were not figurative. There was a great flood in the Middle East back about the right time for it to have been Noah's flood. We don't know for certain if that was an allegory about a real event or not. And it doesn't matter. Since the Bible doesn't say it was a global flood, maybe that was the one. There's at least one case of a human being swallowed by a whale and living to tell about it, so the Jonah story isn't impossible. But again, if it's figurative, it wouldn't matter.

The long day would require that God stop all the other movement in the solar system to keep it working as it does. And of course, if He halted the rotation of the Earth, you would suddenly find yourself and everything not nailed down firmly heading eastward at several thousand miles an hour, the precise speed depending on latitude.

 

[Edward]

But it's true. The apple maggot fly was noticed to have evolved in the last 200 years. It probably is a new species, because even though the old population could breed with the new, they don't. Speciation is reproductive isolation.

BTW, most creationist organizations do not deny the evolution of new species, genera, and often families. They just redefined "evolution" to mean "evolution so extensive, it can't be observed in a human lifetime." But as you see, the scientific definition of biological evolution includes all evolution, not just that above the level of families.


I'm just showing you the facts. Evolution is a reality. You can go out and observe the apple maggot fly in apple orchards, a species that didn't exist in the historical past.

Or you could take it from Answers in Genesis, which openly acknowledges the fact of speciation.

How do you know if their not lying? Deception is their primary weapon. It could be that the book you got that out of, was just good science fiction? We have one book of truth that we can rely on. I'm not a creationist organization or an answers in Genesis guy either. Are not those merely (man's) commentaries? One thing I am sure of, that you can't trust hardly anything that you see hear or read nowadays. So if you have any specific scriptures which support your premise, then I'd be interested in reading those and discussing it scripturally.

 

[crossnote]

Death was always present since life began.

OK, let's set aside the connection of sin to death for a moment.
Why would God introduce death into the creation and then declare "It is good" ? Gen 1:31

 

[Quantrill]

Quite so. Just because God uses nature to create things does not mean He is not the Creator. Nature is just His tool in these things.

Can't get more direct than evolution. As God says, He used nature to bring forth life. And yes, that doesn't mean nature is the origin. God made nature for that purpose. He is the origin of all things.


Since the virgin birth and the Resurrection are presented as historical facts, it's clear that they were not figurative. There was a great flood in the Middle East back about the right time for it to have been Noah's flood. We don't know for certain if that was an allegory about a real event or not. And it doesn't matter. Since the Bible doesn't say it was a global flood, maybe that was the one. There's at least one case of a human being swallowed by a whale and living to tell about it, so the Jonah story isn't impossible. But again, if it's figurative, it wouldn't matter.

The long day would require that God stop all the other movement in the solar system to keep it working as it does. And of course, if He halted the rotation of the Earth, you would suddenly find yourself and everything not nailed down firmly heading eastward at several thousand miles an hour, the precise speed depending on latitude.

No, not quite so. God did not use nature to bring forth life. Nature has nothing to do with bringing forth life. There is no evolution used by God to produce life. You're trying to make evolution as the method or means of God's creating. God's creating is all of God. And evolution played not role. The method or means is God said or God created or made or formed.

Again, just because God created man of the dust of the earth, proves no evolution. God used the substance that He created to create man. God did not use any evolutionary process to create man or the universe.

OK. Show me how the Virgin Birth, and Resurrection are presented as historical facts that makes it clear that it is not figurative.

OK. Show me how the Flood, and the Longest Day of Joshua, and Jonah and the whale are not presented as historical facts, that makes it clear to you that they are figurative.

Quantrill

 

[Barbarian]

No, not quite so. God did not use nature to bring forth life.

He says so in scripture.
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds.

There is no evolution used by God to produce life.

Correct. Evolution is not about the origin of life. It's the way living things change over time.

You're trying to make evolution as the method or means of God's creating.

It's His way of creating new taxa, just as the earth was His way of creating life, and other humans are His way of creating new humans.

OK. Show me how the Virgin Birth, and Resurrection are presented as historical facts that makes it clear that it is not figurative.

Here:

The Annunciation - Luke 1:26-38

The Annunciation, This is from our Jesus section of the goodnews.ie website

goodnews.ie

And of course, the Resurrection was presented to people who wrote the books of the NT. And they experienced the fact. Doubting Thomas, for example.

historical facts, that makes it clear to you that they are figurative.

The Flood, for example, might or might not be. I think there's evidence for it being an actual historical fact, but we can't be sure, because it wasn't written as a history. It rather closely follows the Sumerian/Akkadian stories of floods in the same literary form.

We'll just have to disagree again.

 

[Barbarian]

Why would God introduce death into the creation and then declare "It is good" ? Gen 1:31

For one of God's people, there is nothing to fear from death. It's something you should welcome when He decides that it's time for you to go on. Because you will go on to Him. What is terrible about that?

Living things are given life by God for a time, and then it ends. He says it's good. I can only accept that He has it right.

As you see, the death that Adam brought into the world was a spiritual death, not a physical one. If God thought that physical death was a terrible thing, He would not sentence innocent animals to die.

 

[Barbarian]

But it's true. The apple maggot fly was noticed to have evolved in the last 200 years. It probably is a new species, because even though the old population could breed with the new, they don't. Speciation is reproductive isolation.

How do you know if their not lying?

Apple maggot flies have always been regarded as honest. But we do check up on them, from time to time:

Rapid and repeatable host plant shifts drive reproductive isolation following a recent human-mediated introduction of the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella - PubMed

Ecological speciation via host-shifting is often invoked as a mechanism for insect diversification, but the relative importance of this process is poorly understood. The shift of Rhagoletis pomonella in the 1850s from the native downy hawthorn, Crataegus mollis, to introduced apple, Malus...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So the genetics of the speciation are pretty solidly documented.