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[__ Science __ ] Is Historical Science Useful?

No, I did not.

Nothing about evolution being about the origin of life. I'm merely pointing out that both the origin of life and of evolution are natural processes that He created for that purpose.

Nothing about evolution.

This time, nothing about the origin of life.

God says it did.
Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds.


A change in allele frequency in a population over time (descent with modification) is evolution. This is what produced those new taxa. Even Answers in Genesis is willing to admit that this produces new species, genera, and sometimes families of organisms.

Right. God created them. He uses created things to make new creation, most of the time. Just as He tells you that the Earth brought forth living things, so do a man and a woman bring forth a new life according to His will.


Correct. Individuals do not evolve. Populations evolve. Unless you're the subject of gene therapy, you're stuck with the alleles you are born with.


For example, mornings and evenings without a sun to have them makes this clear.


The first two are mentioned as historical facts by those who were there. The flood may or may not be an allegory, since we do have evidence for a great flood in the Middle East about the right time. The "long day" would have causes catastrophic damage to the Earth, even if God gradually slowed the Earth's rotation.


I'm merely noting that the conflicting genealogies for Jesus in the Bible indicates that much of it is figurative.
[/QUOTE]

Evolution is all about the origin of life on earth. When you say the origin of life and evolution are 'natural processes', you are describing evolution. And you said in #(34) that the origins of life and new forms of life were done by the created universe. That is evolution.

No, God did not say in (Gen. 1:24) that the earth produces life. The earth was simply the place where the life of the kinds of creatures created would multiply. Do you consider (Gen. 1:24) to be literal or figurative?

A man and woman have children is not the man and woman giving life. A man and woman having children is not evolution. God making man. God making woman. God having them reproduce through birth. None of that is evolution.

No populations evolve into another species.

I have already explained (Gen. 1:3-5) concerning the light prior to the sun. It is the light of God. So,again, what text in (Genesis) tells us that some verses in the first three chapters are to be taken figuratively? And, as I asked before, do you believe (Gen. 1:24) to be literal or figurative....and why?

The Flood, Joshua's long day, and Jonah and the whale are presented as historical fact also. Just as the Virgin Birth of Christ and the Resurrection are. So what makes them figurative to you? Again you are using science to determine Scripture. Something you said you don't do. But you do.

Again, your use of the genealogies does not answer my questions.

Whether you consider the Bible a science text is immaterial. You have proved that you contradict yourself when you use science to interpret the Bible. As you do. Post #(15,32,79)

Quantrill
 
Evolution is all about the origin of life on earth.
No. It's about the way existing populations vary over time. Darwin himself just supposed that God created the first living things:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Darwin's four points:
1. More are born than can survive

2. Every organism is slightly different than its parents

3. Some of these differences affect the likelihood of the organism surviving long enough to leave offspring.

4. Favorable differences tend to accumulate, and unfavorable ones tend to disappear, and this over time, changes the population

Nothing about the origin of life.


No populations evolve into another species.
Answers in Genesis disagrees with you.

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

Nine out of ten species alive today have arisen in the last 200,000 years, according to a genetic study looking at select portions of DNA from 100,000 species.


I have already explained (Gen. 1:3-5) concerning the light prior to the sun. It is the light of God.
But one must, by definition, have a sun to have mornings and evenings.

Again, we disagree on these things. And you have millions of Christians who agree with you, as I do also. Fortunately, these things don't affect your salvation at all.
 
No. It's about the way existing populations vary over time. Darwin himself just supposed that God created the first living things:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Darwin's four points:
1. More are born than can survive

2. Every organism is slightly different than its parents

3. Some of these differences affect the likelihood of the organism surviving long enough to leave offspring.

4. Favorable differences tend to accumulate, and unfavorable ones tend to disappear, and this over time, changes the population

Nothing about the origin of life.



Answers in Genesis disagrees with you.

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

Nine out of ten species alive today have arisen in the last 200,000 years, according to a genetic study looking at select portions of DNA from 100,000 species.



But one must, by definition, have a sun to have mornings and evenings.

Again, we disagree on these things. And you have millions of Christians who agree with you, as I do also. Fortunately, these things don't affect your salvation at all.

Evolution is a denial of life originating from God as declared in the book of (Genesis). When Darwin speaks of 'God' or 'Creator' he is not talking about the God of the Bible.

Concerning your quote from Darwin, George Simpson, in his book 'The Book Of Darwin' says, "In retrospect there are several points that are of special interest. One is that Darwin did not here deal even by speculation with the origin of life. Although in then private correspondence Darwin did consider the possibility that life originated by natural means from inorganic matter, here he has life 'originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms of life or into one." (The Book Of Darwin, George Gaylord Simpson, Washington Square Press, 1983, p. 144)

Simpson goes on to say, "...Darwin did refer to evolutionary genealogies as 'what may be called the plan of creation'. (Simpson p. 144)

Concerning the origin of man Darwin spoke of future light upon the subject. To this Simpson remarked, "Here one cannot avoid thinking that Darwin was being purposely evasive. He was already convinced that mankind evolved from 'lower' forms of life..." (Simpson p. 144)

Evolution is all about the origin of life. It must deny (Genesis), where the origin of life is declared.

As I showed your already, the light existed prior to the creation of the sun. That light is the light of God. It shines at His will. Prior to the 4th day, it followed the pattern of the evening and the morning.

Why do you avoid my questions?

Quantrill
 
Didn't Darwin say at the end of his life that he knows he is wrong? I think he did.

How's this? 'Science does not prove that the Bible is true...The Bible proves that the science is true.'
 
Evolution is a denial of life originating from God as declared in the One is that Darwin did not here deal even by speculation with the origin of life. ook of (Genesis).
No. As you see, evolution isn't about the origin of life at all. Even Simpson admits:

One is that Darwin did not here deal even by speculation with the origin of life. Although in then private correspondence Darwin did consider the possibility that life originated by natural means from inorganic matter, here he has life 'originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms of life or into one." (The Book Of Darwin, George Gaylord Simpson, Washington Square Press, 1983, p. 144)

Since God says that created matter brought forth living things, Darwin was pretty much following Genesis in that regard.
Evolution is all about the origin of life.
As your own source indicates, that's wrong. BTW, that quote about God creating the first living things is from the 1872 edition of On the Origin of Species.

As I showed your already, the light existed prior to the creation of the sun.
The point is that "mornings" and "evenings" are defined in terms of the sun. So if there's a big light in the night sky, that's not morning. And if the sun is eclipsed, that's not evening. By definition.

I've answered your questions, but you don't like the answers. We just disagree. The good thing is that it's not about anything that will harm your salvation.
 
Didn't Darwin say at the end of his life that he knows he is wrong? I think he did.
He did admit that he was "tending toward agnosticism" late in life. But he had a terrible tragedy when a beloved child died. So maybe.

There was also a woman who claimed he had recanted evolutionary theory on his deathbed, but there is no evidence to support it, and his friends and family denied ever hearing anything like that from him:

Given the weight of evidence, it must be concluded that Lady Hope’s story is unsupportable, even if she did actually visit Darwin.
How's this? 'Science does not prove that the Bible is true...The Bible proves that the science is true.'
St. Paul knows.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
 
No. As you see, evolution isn't about the origin of life at all. Even Simpson admits:

One is that Darwin did not here deal even by speculation with the origin of life. Although in then private correspondence Darwin did consider the possibility that life originated by natural means from inorganic matter, here he has life 'originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms of life or into one." (The Book Of Darwin, George Gaylord Simpson, Washington Square Press, 1983, p. 144)

Since God says that created matter brought forth living things, Darwin was pretty much following Genesis in that regard.

As your own source indicates, that's wrong. BTW, that quote about God creating the first living things is from the 1872 edition of On the Origin of Species.


The point is that "mornings" and "evenings" are defined in terms of the sun. So if there's a big light in the night sky, that's not morning. And if the sun is eclipsed, that's not evening. By definition.

I've answered your questions, but you don't like the answers. We just disagree. The good thing is that it's not about anything that will harm your salvation.

No. Darwin who wanted to prove evolution, also held to evolution being the origin of life, as Simpson said. Evolution is all about the origin of life. Belief that man came from lower forms of life is a denial of the first 3 chapters in (Genesis). It is a denial of the origin of life.

Darwin was an evolutionist long before his trip to the Galapagos. He wanted to find proof for his belief. Just like science does today. They have a faith in science that they need proof for. Just like you and science does with (Genesis 1:24). You go to the Bible looking for proof of your faith in science. Neither Darwin or you are following (Genesis). You are using (Genesis).

God does not say created matter produced life. God created the 'kinds' of all creatures. The earth was the place where they multiplied. The earth did not produce life and neither did all creatures or man come from one life form. Being born from your kind is not evolution.

It is no coincidence that agnostic and atheist, T.H. Huxley, was evolution's great preacher. Evolution and disbelief in the book of (Genesis) go hand in hand. Evolution and disbelief in God go hand in hand.

You mean by 'science's definition'. Which again proves you interpret the Bible through science. Which proves you contradict yourself as you have said you don't. The light in (Gen. 1:3-5) is the light of God. Other questions you wont' answer. Where is the sun in (Rev. 21:23)? Where is the light? Where did the light come from in the Holy of Holies?

No, you haven't answered my questions.

1.) Do you believe (Gen. 1:24) to be figuratively or literally interpreted? And why?

2.) The Flood, Joshua's long day, and Jonah and the whale are presented in Scripture as fact also. Just like Christ's Virgin Birth and Resurrection. So, why shouldn't they be literal and believed also? What makes one literal and the other figurative to you?

Evolution and God are incompatible. Contrary.

Quantrill
 
How's this? 'Science does not prove that the Bible is true...The Bible proves that the science is true.'

I would say the Bible proves that science is either true or false. As science can be both. When science contradicts the Bible it is false. When science tries to conform the Bible to science's beliefs, then it is false. As it does with evolution.

Quantrill
 
No. Darwin who wanted to prove evolution, also held to evolution being the origin of life
Well, let's take a look. In On the Origin of Species, Darwin expressed his belief that God created the first living things. Which is consistent with the Bible.

On the other hand, Darwin's theory of evolution is not at all about the origin of life. Which of the four points of Darwinian theory do you think is about the way life began?
Darwin was an evolutionist long before his trip to the Galapagos.
No, that's false.
Darwin was in the Galapagos in the early 1830s. He only realized what the evidence showed, some years later:

In October 1838, that is, fifteen months after I had begun my systematic enquiry, I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population, and being well prepared to appreciate the struggle for existence which everywhere goes on from long-continued observation of the habits of animals and plants, it at once struck me that under these circumstances favourable variations would tend to be preserved, and unfavourable ones to be destroyed. The result of this would be the formation of new species. Here, then, I had at last got a theory by which to work; but I was so anxious to avoid prejudice, that I determined not for some time to write even the briefest sketch of it. In June 1842 I first allowed myself the satisfaction of writing a very brief abstract of my theory in pencil in 35 pages; and this was enlarged during the summer of 1844 into one of 230 pages, which I had fairly copied out and still possess.

But at that time I overlooked one problem of great importance; and it is astonishing to me, except on the principle of Columbus and his egg, how I could have overlooked it and its solution. This problem is the tendency in organic beings descended from the same stock to diverge in character as they become modified. That they have diverged greatly is obvious from the manner in which species of all kinds can be classed under genera, genera under families, families under sub-orders, and so forth; and I can remember the very spot in the road, whilst in my carriage, when to my joy the solution occurred to me; and this was long after I had come to Down. The solution, as I believe, is that the modified offspring of all dominant and increasing forms tend to become adapted to many and highly diversified places in the economy of nature.

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=1&itemID=F1497&viewtype=text (pages 120-121)
He wanted to find proof for his belief. Just like science does today.
Actually, that's the reverse of what happens. The concept of the null hypothesis is important in this process. Every hypothesis must be empirically testable. If it is not testable, it cannot be a scientific hypothesis. So the predictions of the hypothesis are tested in a way that will either show the prediction to be true, or to show that it is not true (null hypothesis).

What happened was Darwin discovered an explanation for the evidence he found. While it contradicted his earlier beliefs about individual creation of organisms, it fit the evidence nicely. After years of investigation and thought, he finally concluded that species do change over time and form new species. (which AIG also now says)

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time.
...
Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.


It is no coincidence that agnostic and atheist, T.H. Huxley, was evolution's great preacher. Evolution and disbelief in the book of (Genesis) go hand in hand. Evolution and disbelief in God go hand in hand.
Odd then, that so many notable biologist are and have been believers in God. Would you like some examples? Notice also that Darwin and Wallace were both Christians when they discovered the nature of evolution.

No, you haven't answered my questions.
I have, but you don't like the answers. You have some interpretations of scripture that you will not question at all, and that's not a problem for you as long as you accept what is essential to salvation. As I said, if those assumptions were completely obvious in scripture, almost all Christians would accept them. But there are many millions of Christians on all sides of these interpretations. Doesn't mean any of them are not good Christians. It just means that we disagree on some things.

1.) Do you believe (Gen. 1:24) to be figuratively or literally interpreted? And why?
As you know, God did indeed us created matter to produce life. The earth did bring forth living things. He created it to do so. Scientists are now finding more and more evidence that this is indeed what happened. But it's not evolution. Evolution is limited to the processes by which populations change over time.

2.) The Flood, Joshua's long day, and Jonah and the whale are presented in Scripture as fact also.
I know you believe this to be true, but we don't actually know that for sure. Since they are presented in the same poetic style as the Akkadian accounts, there's no way to be sure. Nor does it matter. The lessons therein would be no less important or true, if they were parables.
Evolution and God are incompatible. Contrary.
As you know, we directly observe evolution occurring. Since God and His creation cannot be contradictory, evolution cannot be inconsistent with God.
 
I saw a video the other day and it was saying that, we now have the technology to extract mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal bones. So the did and compared it to our modern DNA...and found that it isn't even similar. There's no way that Neanderthal man is an ancestor of Man.

This is established scientific fact now.
 
Well, let's take a look. In On the Origin of Species, Darwin expressed his belief that God created the first living things. Which is consistent with the Bible.

On the other hand, Darwin's theory of evolution is not at all about the origin of life. Which of the four points of Darwinian theory do you think is about the way life began?

No, that's false.
Darwin was in the Galapagos in the early 1830s. He only realized what the evidence showed, some years later:

In October 1838, that is, fifteen months after I had begun my systematic enquiry, I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population, and being well prepared to appreciate the struggle for existence which everywhere goes on from long-continued observation of the habits of animals and plants, it at once struck me that under these circumstances favourable variations would tend to be preserved, and unfavourable ones to be destroyed. The result of this would be the formation of new species. Here, then, I had at last got a theory by which to work; but I was so anxious to avoid prejudice, that I determined not for some time to write even the briefest sketch of it. In June 1842 I first allowed myself the satisfaction of writing a very brief abstract of my theory in pencil in 35 pages; and this was enlarged during the summer of 1844 into one of 230 pages, which I had fairly copied out and still possess.

But at that time I overlooked one problem of great importance; and it is astonishing to me, except on the principle of Columbus and his egg, how I could have overlooked it and its solution. This problem is the tendency in organic beings descended from the same stock to diverge in character as they become modified. That they have diverged greatly is obvious from the manner in which species of all kinds can be classed under genera, genera under families, families under sub-orders, and so forth; and I can remember the very spot in the road, whilst in my carriage, when to my joy the solution occurred to me; and this was long after I had come to Down. The solution, as I believe, is that the modified offspring of all dominant and increasing forms tend to become adapted to many and highly diversified places in the economy of nature.

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=1&itemID=F1497&viewtype=text (pages 120-121)

Actually, that's the reverse of what happens. The concept of the null hypothesis is important in this process. Every hypothesis must be empirically testable. If it is not testable, it cannot be a scientific hypothesis. So the predictions of the hypothesis are tested in a way that will either show the prediction to be true, or to show that it is not true (null hypothesis).

What happened was Darwin discovered an explanation for the evidence he found. While it contradicted his earlier beliefs about individual creation of organisms, it fit the evidence nicely. After years of investigation and thought, he finally concluded that species do change over time and form new species. (which AIG also now says)

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time.
...
Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.


Darwins God and Creator is not the God or Creator of the Bible.

"When I view all beings not as special creations, but as the lineal descendants of some few beings which lived long before the first bed of the Cambrian system was deposited, they seem to me to become ennobled. " (Great Books Of The Western World, vol. 49, Darwin, Origin of Species, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 2003, p. 243)

"The idea of a universal and beneficent Creator does not seem to arise in the mind of man, until he has been elevated by long-continued culture." (Same vol. as above, Descent of Man, p. 593)

I showed you that Darwin already supported the idea that the origin of life came from materialistic means. Why? Because it is in agreement with evolution. Read again Simpsons quote. Life only comes from God. It comes the way God described in the Bible. Not the way Darwin believes. Evolution is contrary to the Bible. Huxley was a great evolutionist and atheist. Darwin would be also.

Oh yes, Darwin was an evolutionist long before the Galapagos expedition. His grandfather Erasmus Darwin was an evolutionist. His interests were philosophical and scientific. And these "interests were served by the "Lunar Society, a group well known in the history of ideas, who met at the time of the full moon....." And these were anti-clerical. (Charles Darwin, Peter Brent, Harper & Row Pub., 1981, p. 13-14)

In 1794 Erasmus published 'Zoonomia' subtitled 'The Laws of Organic Life'. Here he propounded a 'developmental theory'. He argued in speculative terms rather than factual. It would later be his grandson, Charles Darwin who would provide the so called 'facts' to this theory. (Brent, p. 14)

Charles Darwin became a member of the Plinian Society in 1826, which was devoted to the study of science In 1827, "a certain Mr. Grey had submitted his theory that the lower animals possess every faculty and propensity of the human mind and thus consciousness had an entirely material basis." (Brent, p. 43)

While at Cambridge in 1831, Darwin read 'Personal Narative of Travels to the Equinoctical Regions of the New Continent' by Humboldt. From this Darwin understood a sense of the unity of nature. "And it was this vision that Darwin kept constantly before him when considering the exotic phenomena that surrounded him on his excursions from the Beagle, and later when he was struggling with the ecological concepts, as yet undefined by science, that underlay his evolutionary theories." (Brent p.98)

Darwin later wrote to a friend concerning Humboldt, "If you see him again ...say that I never forget that my whole course of life is due to having read and re-read as a youth his Personal Narrative." (Brent, p. 98)

Darwin was an evolutionist long before Galapagos. He was an evolutionist looking to prove evolution.

Quantrill
 
Odd then, that so many notable biologist are and have been believers in God. Would you like some examples? Notice also that Darwin and Wallace were both Christians when they discovered the nature of evolution.


I have, but you don't like the answers. You have some interpretations of scripture that you will not question at all, and that's not a problem for you as long as you accept what is essential to salvation. As I said, if those assumptions were completely obvious in scripture, almost all Christians would accept them. But there are many millions of Christians on all sides of these interpretations. Doesn't mean any of them are not good Christians. It just means that we disagree on some things.


As you know, God did indeed us created matter to produce life. The earth did bring forth living things. He created it to do so. Scientists are now finding more and more evidence that this is indeed what happened. But it's not evolution. Evolution is limited to the processes by which populations change over time.


I know you believe this to be true, but we don't actually know that for sure. Since they are presented in the same poetic style as the Akkadian accounts, there's no way to be sure. Nor does it matter. The lessons therein would be no less important or true, if they were parables.

As you know, we directly observe evolution occurring. Since God and His creation cannot be contradictory, evolution cannot be inconsistent with God.

Plenty of people have a so called 'belief in God'. Means nothing. The God of who or what? What makes you say Darwin or Wallace were Christians?

You haven't given any answers. Your attempt to answer some does not address the question.

1.) Where is the sun in (Rev. 21:23)?

2.)Where is the light in (Rev. 21:23)?

3.)Where did the light come from in the Holy of Holies?

4.)Do you believe (Gen. 1:24) is to be figuratively or literally interpreted? Why?

5.) Why shouldn't the Flood, Joshua's long day, and Jonah's whale, be interpreted as literal as they are presented as fact just like the Virgin Birth and Resurrection of Christ are?

You refuse to answer these because you and I both know you interpret the Scripture through your science. Your refusal to answer proves it. Which proves you contradict yourself.

Evolution speaks to the origin of life. It projects man as having originated from lower forms of life. It is a lie. Totally contrary to God and the Bible.

Quantrill
 
Plenty of people have a so called 'belief in God'. Means nothing. The God of who or what? What makes you say Darwin or Wallace were Christians?
For one thing, Darwin records that the officers of the Beagle joked about his Anglican orthodoxy. Last time I checked, Anglicans were Christians.

Wallace even rejected Darwin's finding that humans had evolved, assuming that they were created apart from other animals.
 
Evolution speaks to the origin of life.
No. As you learned, evolution is only about the way existing living populations change over time. Even Darwin just assumed that God created the first living things.

Perhaps it would be useful to go back and look at the four points of Darwin's theory, which have nothing whatever to do with the origin of life.

You haven't given any answers. Your attempt to answer some does not address the question.
The answers were not satisfactory to you. That's how it is sometimes. We disagree.
It projects man as having originated from lower forms of life.
As YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise admits, the evidence supports that finding.

Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early
bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expecte by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.


It is a lie. Totally contrary to God and the Bible.
I know you honestly believe so. But the evidence shows that living things evolve into new taxa. And genetics has shown that all known living things on earth have a common ancestor.
 
"When I view all beings not as special creations, but as the lineal descendants of some few beings which lived long before the first bed of the Cambrian system was deposited, they seem to me to become ennobled. " (Great Books Of The Western World, vol. 49, Darwin, Origin of Species, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 2003, p. 243)
Darwin's prediction has since been verified by the discovery of Precambrian animals. Some of them still have traces of cholesterol in the fossils which indicate that they are indeed animals.

I showed you that Darwin already supported the idea that the origin of life came from materialistic means.
Well, let's take a look...
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species 1872
Darwin was an evolutionist long before Galapagos. He was an evolutionist looking to prove evolution.
No. As you see, by his own admission, he didn't realize anything about evolution until after he had sailed on the Beagle.
That admission, with link is in post 89, above.
 
I saw a video the other day and it was saying that, we now have the technology to extract mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal bones. So the did and compared it to our modern DNA...and found that it isn't even similar. There's no way that Neanderthal man is an ancestor of Man.

This is established scientific fact now.
Actually, Neanderthal DNA is the closest thing to DNA of anatomically modern humans. It is so close, most scientists consider them to be a subspecies of our own. Most non-African human populations have a good amount of Neanderthal DNA.

Humans, Neanderthals share up to 98.5 percent DNA, new study reveals

You’re not much different than a Neanderthal.


At least according to a new study published by Science Advances. The journal found that as little as 1.5 percent of our DNA is unique to modern humans, and not shared with our ancestral species.

“That’s a pretty small percentage,” Nathan Schaefer, a University of California scholar and co-author of the report, told The Associated Press. “This kind of finding is why scientists are turning away from thinking that we human are so vastly different from Neanderthals.”


Anatomically modern humans, Neanderthals, Denisovans, and at least one other subspecies of H. sapiens all descended from archaic H. sapiens. None of these races of human are ancestral to the others. There are no biological human races now, but there were at one time.

 
For one thing, Darwin records that the officers of the Beagle joked about his Anglican orthodoxy. Last time I checked, Anglicans were Christians.

Wallace even rejected Darwin's finding that humans had evolved, assuming that they were created apart from other animals.

So? All you are saying is ones association with the state church of England makes one a Christian.

No. As you learned, evolution is only about the way existing living populations change over time. Even Darwin just assumed that God created the first living things.

Perhaps it would be useful to go back and look at the four points of Darwin's theory, which have nothing whatever to do with the origin of life.


The answers were not satisfactory to you. That's how it is sometimes. We disagree.

As YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise admits, the evidence supports that finding.

Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early
bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expecte by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.



I know you honestly believe so. But the evidence shows that living things evolve into new taxa. And genetics has shown that all known living things on earth have a common ancestor.

No, evolution is about the origin of life. It denies God as the origin of life as described in the Bible. The first 3 chapters of (Genesis) are clear. God spoke and it was so.

You gave no answers. You made attempts to avoid the questions but did not answer them. Of course we disagree. That doesn't mean you shouldn't answer the questions that are based upon what you have said.

Science sees what it wants to. It finds what it wants to in order to support it's faith in science. All is based on assumption. It assumes that all things are now just as they have always been. Thus it's so called tests can be true to the past also. But the Bible says differently. Science does not have the ability to test it's theory of evolution. All it can do is assume.

Yes, I do believe evolution is a lie and totally contrary to the Bible and God.

Don't misunderstand. If you want to believe in evolution, that's fine with me. You can believe in it. Have your faith in science. But don't inject your evolution into the Bible and God. Which is what you are attempting to do.

Please answer my questions listed in post #(92).

Quantrill
 
Darwin's prediction has since been verified by the discovery of Precambrian animals. Some of them still have traces of cholesterol in the fossils which indicate that they are indeed animals.


Well, let's take a look...
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species 1872

No. As you see, by his own admission, he didn't realize anything about evolution until after he had sailed on the Beagle.
That admission, with link is in post 89, above.

Darwin's predictions are contrary to the Bible. If you want to believe Darwin, that's fine. I believe the Bible.

No, I showed you in post #(91) that Darwin was already an evolutionist before Galapagos. He, as science does, looks for evidence to prove what they already believe.

Quantrill
 
Darwin's predictions are contrary to the Bible.
Well, let's take a look...

1. More are born than can survive to reproduce
2. Every organism is slightly different than its parents
3. Some of these differences affect survival.
4. Favorable ones tend to accumulate and unfavorable ones tend to be removed from the population, which explains speciation.

I don't see anything in the Bible that contradicts these observed facts.

If you want to believe Darwin, that's fine. I believe the Bible.
Fortunately, there's not need to reject either.

No, I showed you in post #(91) that Darwin was already an evolutionist before Galapagos.
By Darwin's own admission, he did not think species changed until years after he went on that voyage. It's just a fact, even if some other people don't like it.

In October 1838, that is, fifteen months after I had begun my systematic enquiry, I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population, and being well prepared to appreciate the struggle for existence which everywhere goes on from long-continued observation of the habits of animals and plants, it at once struck me that under these circumstances favourable variations would tend to be preserved, and unfavourable ones to be destroyed. The result of this would be the formation of new species. Here, then, I had at last got a theory by which to work; but I was so anxious to avoid prejudice, that I determined not for some time to write even the briefest sketch of it. In June 1842 I first allowed myself the satisfaction of writing a very brief abstract of my theory in pencil in 35 pages; and this was enlarged during the summer of 1844 into one of 230 pages, which I had fairly copied out and still possess.

But at that time I overlooked one problem of great importance; and it is astonishing to me, except on the principle of Columbus and his egg, how I could have overlooked it and its solution. This problem is the tendency in organic beings descended from the same stock to diverge in character as they become modified. That they have diverged greatly is obvious from the manner in which species of all kinds can be classed under genera, genera under families, families under sub-orders, and so forth; and I can remember the very spot in the road, whilst in my carriage, when to my joy the solution occurred to me; and this was long after I had come to Down. The solution, as I believe, is that the modified offspring of all dominant and increasing forms tend to become adapted to many and highly diversified places in the economy of nature.

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=1&itemID=F1497&viewtype=text (pages 120-121)

He, as science does, looks for evidence to prove what they already believe.
In this case, he changed his mind, based on what he found.
 
Well, let's take a look...

1. More are born than can survive to reproduce
2. Every organism is slightly different than its parents
3. Some of these differences affect survival.
4. Favorable ones tend to accumulate and unfavorable ones tend to be removed from the population, which explains speciation.

I don't see anything in the Bible that contradicts these observed facts.


Fortunately, there's not need to reject either.


By Darwin's own admission, he did not think species changed until years after he went on that voyage. It's just a fact, even if some other people don't like it.

In October 1838, that is, fifteen months after I had begun my systematic enquiry, I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population, and being well prepared to appreciate the struggle for existence which everywhere goes on from long-continued observation of the habits of animals and plants, it at once struck me that under these circumstances favourable variations would tend to be preserved, and unfavourable ones to be destroyed. The result of this would be the formation of new species. Here, then, I had at last got a theory by which to work; but I was so anxious to avoid prejudice, that I determined not for some time to write even the briefest sketch of it. In June 1842 I first allowed myself the satisfaction of writing a very brief abstract of my theory in pencil in 35 pages; and this was enlarged during the summer of 1844 into one of 230 pages, which I had fairly copied out and still possess.

But at that time I overlooked one problem of great importance; and it is astonishing to me, except on the principle of Columbus and his egg, how I could have overlooked it and its solution. This problem is the tendency in organic beings descended from the same stock to diverge in character as they become modified. That they have diverged greatly is obvious from the manner in which species of all kinds can be classed under genera, genera under families, families under sub-orders, and so forth; and I can remember the very spot in the road, whilst in my carriage, when to my joy the solution occurred to me; and this was long after I had come to Down. The solution, as I believe, is that the modified offspring of all dominant and increasing forms tend to become adapted to many and highly diversified places in the economy of nature.

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?pageseq=1&itemID=F1497&viewtype=text (pages 120-121)


In this case, he changed his mind, based on what he found.

No. You can't hold to evolution and the Bible. The only way you can is to misrepresent what either the Bible or evolution is saying. You chose to misrepresent the Bible, which is why you ignore my questions in post #(92), to which I am still waiting for answers. Thus you hold to evolution and your misrepresentation of the Bible.

I showed you in post #(91) that Darwin was an evolutionist before Galapagos.

Here is another quote from Simpson who is quoting Darwin in his autobiography. This takes place about 1825 while Darwin is a student at Edinburg university. Darwin is here walking with and speaking to a professor Dr. Grant. Darwin says, "He one day, when we were walking together, burst forth in high admiration of Lamarck and his views on evolution. I listened in silent astonishment, and as far as I can judge without any effect on my mind. I had previously read the 'Zoonomia' of my grandfather, in which similar views are maintained, but without producing any effect on me. Nevertheless it is probable that the hearing rather early in life such views maintained, and praised may have favoured my upholding them under a different form in my Origin of Species." (The Book Of Darwin, George Gaylord Simpson, Washington Square Press, 1983, p. 38)

In the scientific world there were geologist's who believed the Biblical account of creation. Then there scientist's who rejected that account. Those who rejected that account would form a geological evolution of the earth which would involve millions of years. Guess which one Darwin adhered to? Answer: The one that rejected the Biblical account. Why? Because Darwin was an evolutionist and belief in geological evolution provided the millions of years that the biological evolution needed in order to believe it.

Darwin was an evolutionist before Galapagos, drawn like a moth to a flame.

Evolution and the Bible are incompatible.

Quantrill
 
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