Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

[My Rock]

Let us delve into scripture, engage in respectful dialogue with those who hold different views, and prayerfully consider the implications of these concepts for our worship and daily lives. Whether Jesus is described as "begotten" or "eternal," the core message remains: He is the divine Son of God, who bridges the gap between humanity and God, offering us salvation and a restored relationship with the Creator. Through an active pursuit of understanding, we can deepen our faith and more effectively share the love of Christ with the world.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings My Rock,

Let us delve into scripture .....

Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son)​

Yes, he is a created being, the Son of God, with God as his father through the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary is his mother Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1-14.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Vinny37]

...

[Is Jesus Christ a created being (begotten son) or has he always existed alongside God the father (eternal son)?

.…He is the divine son of God, who bridges the gap between humanity and God, offering us salvation and a restored relationship with the creator....]

Sidelining the Creeds, I’d downrate the term begotten as appertaining to the Greek NT, and it can cause absolute mayhem if dropped into Jhn.1:18 as a polytheistic begotten-god, as the NASB95 was guilty of saying. [The unique [son, himself] deity], covers John’s text there. I’d also drawn a distinction between Jesus the christ, and God the son: there was never a time when the noncarnate son was not; there was a time when the incarnate son was not.

Jesus is the permanent temporal mode of the uncreated eternal second person of deity. The beyond-time pool has streamed and incarnated into time as Jesus, who was conceived by the spirit and begotten of Mary, the christotokos. That she bore is not God, nor even God the son, but is God the son as a human being: theologically here, truncation is travesty. Thus he lacked the omnis (omnipresence, etc), though had one-of-a-kind deificity, or as I think we may say aright, divinity but not deity. To sing “You alone are God, Jesus!” is popular and heretical.

As for the θεος/theos texts Jhn.1:1,18, Rm.9:5, Tts.2:13, and 2 Pt.1:1, I’d favour the NET above the pack, with the NWT at the bottom of the pack. As raw data they powerfully point in blunt towards a trinitarian and christological understanding.

Rather than [a restored relationship]—a prodigal idea—I’d say a new relationship; not going back to Adam 1, but moving into Adam 2, an exodus towards Canaan, not back to Egypt.

 

[My Rock]

In a Trinity of Persons of God, who do you pray to. If Jesus do you ignore the Father and Holy Ghost.

All the Fullness of the Godhead is in Christ bodily Colossians 2:9 I pray to Jesus because He is the fullest representation of God.

 

[Celece]

Jesus Christ is both "begotten" and "eternal," meaning He has always existed with God the Father while uniquely being the Son. The term "begotten" highlights His unique relationship with the Father, not His creation. This understanding deepens our worship and assures us of His eternal presence and role in our salvation.

 

[Ezekiel]

The Father, blessed His name. By His thought came the Holy Spirit blessed Her name and she surrounded Him.

The Father is surrounded by light. He apprehends himself in that light which is the pure spring of the water of life
that sustains all realms.
He is conscious of his image everywhere around him, Perceiving his image in this spring of Spirit Pouring forth from himself. He is enamored of the image he sees in the light-water, The spring of pure light-water enveloping him.
His self-aware thought (ennoia) came into being.
Appearing to him in the effulgence of his light.
She stood before him.
This, then, is the first of the powers, prior to everything.
Arising out of the mind of the Father
The Providence (pronoia) of everything.
Her light reflects His light.
She is from His image in His light
Perfect in power
Image of the invisible perfect Virgin Spirit.

By the Father, The Holy Spirit came the Word called Christ came into being. blessed be all three names.

The Holy Spirit Brought his and Barbelo’s divine autogenes Son to completion
In order that he could stand before the great Invisible Virgin Spirit
As the divine autogenes Christ And honor Him with a mighty voice.
[The Son came through Providence].
The Invisible Spirit
Placed the divine autogenes over everything.
All authorities were subordinated to him.
The truth within him let him learn everything
[He is called by the highest name of all.
That name will be told only to those who are worthy to hear it
From the light, [which is the Christ,]
From the incorruptibility,
Through a gift of the spirit
The Four Lights arising from the divine autogenes stood before him.
[The four fundamental powers are Understanding, Grace, Perception, and Consideration.]
Grace exists within the realm of the Light called Harmozel, the first angel.
Along with Harmozel are
Grace
Truth
Form
The second Light is called Oriel and it stands over the second realm.
With Oriel are:
Conceptualization (Epinoia)
Perception
Memory
The third Light is called Daveithai and it stands over the third realm.
With Daveithai are:
Understanding
Love
Idea
The fourth Light is called Eleleth and it stands over the fourth realm.
With Eleleth are:
Perfection
Peace
Wisdom (Sophia).

All this took place before the visible realms and is the invisible places before creation

 

[My Rock]

The passage you provided is a Gnostic text, likely influenced by writings such as the Apocryphon of John or The Secret Book of John, which are part of the Nag Hammadi library discovered in Egypt in 1945. Gnosticism was an early Christian heresy that blended elements of Christian theology with pagan and esoteric beliefs, presenting a complex cosmology involving various emanations or "aeons" that proceed from a transcendent, unknowable God. This doctrine is highly mystical and allegorical, focusing on hidden knowledge (gnosis) as the path to salvation.

In this particular text, concepts like the "Invisible Virgin Spirit," "Barbelo," and the "Four Lights" are examples of Gnostic attempts to describe the origins of the universe and the divine realm in a way that is starkly different from orthodox Christian teachings. Gnosticism often portrayed a dualistic universe where the spiritual and material worlds were in opposition, and salvation was attained by escaping the material world through special knowledge. This contrasts sharply with the biblical doctrine of creation, where the material world is seen as good, and salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, not secret knowledge.

From a Christian perspective, this Gnostic text is considered heretical because it diverges from the core teachings of the Bible regarding the nature of God, creation, and salvation. Traditional Christian doctrine, whether in Oneness Pentecostalism, Trinitarianism, or other orthodox branches, affirms the oneness of God, the reality of Jesus Christ as the incarnate Word of God, and the Holy Spirit as God's active presence in the world, without the complex and speculative emanations and aeons found in Gnostic thought.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When you read the bold you will see that Jesus was not a created being, but as God Jesus has always been from the beginning.

 

[Runningman]

Let us delve into scripture, engage in respectful dialogue with those who hold different views, and prayerfully consider the implications of these concepts for our worship and daily lives. Whether Jesus is described as "begotten" or "eternal," the core message remains: He is the divine Son of God, who bridges the gap between humanity and God, offering us salvation and a restored relationship with the Creator. Through an active pursuit of understanding, we can deepen our faith and more effectively share the love of Christ with the world.

Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

Yes Jesus was created according to Scripture. Not only does being the begotten Son necessitate a beginning point, but being a human made of the same flesh as you and I requires having been created. The matter that people are made of is all created.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Let us delve into scripture, engage in respectful dialogue with those who hold different views, and prayerfully consider the implications of these concepts for our worship and daily lives. Whether Jesus is described as "begotten" or "eternal," the core message remains: He is the divine Son of God, who bridges the gap between humanity and God, offering us salvation and a restored relationship with the Creator. Through an active pursuit of understanding, we can deepen our faith and more effectively share the love of Christ with the world.

Hello My Rock, Good statement, from the above, my mind went to:
8-1-24

Acts 2:36-39

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Read full chapter

Love, Walter

 

[electedbyHim]

The Father, blessed His name. By His thought came the Holy Spirit blessed Her name and she surrounded Him.

The Father is surrounded by light. He apprehends himself in that light which is the pure spring of the water of life
that sustains all realms.
He is conscious of his image everywhere around him, Perceiving his image in this spring of Spirit Pouring forth from himself. He is enamored of the image he sees in the light-water, The spring of pure light-water enveloping him.
His self-aware thought (ennoia) came into being.
Appearing to him in the effulgence of his light.
She stood before him.
This, then, is the first of the powers, prior to everything.
Arising out of the mind of the Father
The Providence (pronoia) of everything.
Her light reflects His light.
She is from His image in His light
Perfect in power
Image of the invisible perfect Virgin Spirit.

By the Father, The Holy Spirit came the Word called Christ came into being. blessed be all three names.

The Holy Spirit Brought his and Barbelo’s divine autogenes Son to completion
In order that he could stand before the great Invisible Virgin Spirit
As the divine autogenes Christ And honor Him with a mighty voice.
[The Son came through Providence].
The Invisible Spirit
Placed the divine autogenes over everything.
All authorities were subordinated to him.
The truth within him let him learn everything
[He is called by the highest name of all.
That name will be told only to those who are worthy to hear it
From the light, [which is the Christ,]
From the incorruptibility,
Through a gift of the spirit
The Four Lights arising from the divine autogenes stood before him.
[The four fundamental powers are Understanding, Grace, Perception, and Consideration.]
Grace exists within the realm of the Light called Harmozel, the first angel.
Along with Harmozel are
Grace
Truth
Form
The second Light is called Oriel and it stands over the second realm.
With Oriel are:
Conceptualization (Epinoia)
Perception
Memory
The third Light is called Daveithai and it stands over the third realm.
With Daveithai are:
Understanding
Love
Idea
The fourth Light is called Eleleth and it stands over the fourth realm.
With Eleleth are:
Perfection
Peace
Wisdom (Sophia).

All this took place before the visible realms and is the invisible places before creation

Where is any of that in the Bible?

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes Jesus was created according to Scripture. Not only does being the begotten Son necessitate a beginning point, but being a human made of the same flesh as you and I requires having been created. The matter that people are made of is all created.

Where do you see in scripture that Jesus was created? Scripture states, especially in John 1:1-14; John 17:5, that Jesus has always been, even before the foundation of the world.

 

[Hopeful 2]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When you read the bold you will see that Jesus was not a created being, but as God Jesus has always been from the beginning.

The Word has always been from the beginning, and the Word took on flesh to become Jesus.

 

[hawkman]

Where is any of that in the Bible?

Amen .

 

[My Rock]

Where do you see in scripture that Jesus was created? Scripture states, especially in John 1:1-14; John 17:5, that Jesus has always been, even before the foundation of the world.

Yes as the Self Expressive Eternal Word. It says "And the Word (before becoming flesh) was made flesh (Son)" indicating being created

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Let us delve into scripture, engage in respectful dialogue with those who hold different views, and prayerfully consider the implications of these concepts for our worship and daily lives. Whether Jesus is described as "begotten" or "eternal," the core message remains: He is the divine Son of God, who bridges the gap between humanity and God, offering us salvation and a restored relationship with the Creator. Through an active pursuit of understanding, we can deepen our faith and more effectively share the love of Christ with the world.

Bible Study - Definition: The Pre-Existence of Christ/Scripture

Sunday 4-7-24 1st. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Adar II Day 27 5784 20th. Day of Spring Pre-existence is defined as “existence in a former state or previous to something else.” In the case of Jesus Christ, His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth. The Bible not...

christianforums.net

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Free]

Yes as the Self Expressive Eternal Word. It says "And the Word (before becoming flesh) was made flesh (Son)" indicating being created

The only difference I would suggest, to both you and for_his_glory , is that Jesus is name of the Son of God who became flesh. That is, the Word is just another name for the Son that John uses to tie him in with creation in Gen 1:1, as the agent of creation, which John then supports with John 1:3, 10. But, the Son is eternal and has always existed as the Son, and then became flesh in the person of Jesus.

 

[My Rock]

John's use of "the Word" in John 1:1 is representing God's self-expression and creative power. The "Word" (Greek: Logos) is God's divine plan and purpose (The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).), fully expressed in creation and ultimately in the incarnation. When John ties the "Word" to creation, he emphasizes that the same God who spoke the world into existence is the one who was made manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ (John 1:14).

John 1:3 and 1:10 affirm that all things were made through this divine Word, not as an independent agent but as the direct expression of God's will. In The Son is not an eternal, pre-existent person separate from the Father. Rather, the Son refers to the incarnation—God (the self Expressive Word) manifesting Himself in human form as Son of God. The Sonship began at the incarnation, when the Word became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. This means that the Son is God’s redemptive plan realized in time, not a distinct and eternal person. The fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ (Colossians 2:9), revealing that the same God who created all things is the one who walked among us as Jesus, uniting divinity and humanity to reconcile the world to Himself. This understanding highlights the singularity of God's nature and His direct involvement in the redemption of mankind as Jesus Christ.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?​

Both. The physical body of Christ was created. The entity that created and maintained that physical body is the eternal God and specifically the subsistence named God the Son.

I like to think of it as God putting on a suit (human body) in time and the suit's characteristics/abilities are that of a human.

 

[My Rock]

Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?​

Both. The physical body of Christ was created. The entity that created and maintained that physical body is the eternal God and specifically the subsistence named God the Son.

I like to think of it as God putting on a suit (human body) in time and the suit's characteristics/abilities are that of a human.

Nice