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Is Jesus the Messiah?

G

GraceBwithU

Guest
The messiah will be “a remnant of the house of Judahâ€Â, from “the root of Jesseâ€Â, and “from the house of Davidâ€Â. He will be “made of the seed of David according to the fleshâ€Â. The scripture speaks of more but I’m only going to address what is stated below.

Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.
Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
:)

Does he satisfy all of these requirements?
 
As a Christian, you and everyone else here already knows the answer you want to hear for this question - so I figured I'd throw a monkey wrench in the entire machine and say "no." People (predictably) reacted.

Long story short was being sarcastic.
 
He may be the the messiah of Christianity, but he is not the Mashiach as foretold in the Tanach. Huge difference. :D
 
einstein said:
He may be the the messiah of Christianity, but he is not the Mashiach as foretold in the Tanach. Huge difference. :D
Can you please explain, at least in broad brush, why you think that Jesus cannot be seen as the "Jewish Messiah", assuming, of course, that you recognize the existence this "category".
 
vic C. said:
No trolling people and stay on target. 8-)

OK...how is this...Jesus is the messiah and many scriptures prove it.
:wink:
 
I've actually wondered about this recently. There are Jewish websites that say that He doesn't fulfill the criteria to be the awaited Messiah (I.E this website, which makes a very good argument and this page)

But then of course He said that He is the Son of God, so could He be the Son of God and not be the Messiah?
 
The fact of the matter is that, looking biblically, Jesus Christ makes his deity perfectly clear by fulfilling all messianic prophecy as well as accepting worship, forgiving sins, and performing miracles - things only God has the ability to do (illustrating his divinity).

However, the key phrase in the previous paragraph is "looking biblically,"The argument that you're going to hear from those who do not believe Jesus is the messiah is that the bible is a false testament of who Jesus is. My experience dictates the non-believers say early Christians wrote false accounts of what Jesus said for whatever reason.

The question is not one of what the scriptures say, but what scriptures are being taken into account.
 
There are many websites which can fully explain why Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah as described in the Tanakh. Try jewsforjudaism as a start. Let me just add, that according to the gospels, his genealogy as described rules him out without even mentioning his failure to satisfy multiple other requirements as per the Tanakh. No offense meant here. That's just the way it is. In order to understand you should obtain or refer to a Jewish translation of the Tanakh, unless you are fluent in Hebrew. :)
 
einstein said:
There are many websites which can fully explain why Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah as described in the Tanakh. Try jewsforjudaism as a start. Let me just add, that according to the gospels, his genealogy as described rules him out without even mentioning his failure to satisfy multiple other requirements as per the Tanakh. No offense meant here. That's just the way it is. In order to understand you should obtain or refer to a Jewish translation of the Tanakh, unless you are fluent in Hebrew. :)

No offense taken. But to seek the truth from the websites you have mentioned would be like attempting to seek a carpenter to repair your computer.

His genealogy that you mentioned however is one of the main things that does prove he is the messiah.


Mt 1:1-16
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
KJV

Genealogies were very important to the Jews. Public records recorded genealogies from the oldest to the youngest, and private records went from the youngest back to the oldest.

Matthew is the public record. Luke records the private record.


Lk 3:23-34
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham,
KJV

Why two genealogies of Jesus? There are two genealogies of Jesus to prove His legal right to the throne of David. In Luke, Joseph is inserted to follow custom, indicated by the word, “(as was supposed)â€Â, NT:3543; Nomizo; properly, to do by law, to follow by custom. It is even in parentheses to draw attention to it. The parentheses are shouting to us, “Take a closer look here!â€Â

If Jesus is; “a remnant of the house of Judahâ€Â, from “the root of Jesseâ€Â, “from the house of David†and “made of the seed of David according to the fleshâ€Â, then certainly Joseph could not be of his immediate paternal bloodline since Joseph was not his natural father. Then the bloodline could only be traced through His mother, Mary. However, since the custom was of using male genealogies only, then how could an ancestral line of Jesus be shown through Mary?

However, women are allowed to be included in the ancestral line if they met two stringent conditions.

1. Num 27:8, "Therefore, tell the Israelites; If a man dies without leaving a son, you shall let his heritage pass on to his daughter."
2. Num 36:6-7, "This is what the Lord commands with regard to the daughters of Salphahad: They may marry anyone they please, provided they marry into a clan of their ancestral tribe, so that no heritage of the Israelites will pass from one tribe to another, but all the Israelites will retain their own ancestral heritage."

So now, all we have to show is that:
1. The father of Mary was dead had no sons.
2. Mary married within her own tribe. Since Joseph was from the tribe of Judah then Mary must also be from the tribe of Judah.

The Bible does not mention any brothers of Mary..

The words of Jesus in John 19:25-27, and lack of evidence of male siblings, strongly suggest that the first condition was satisfied.

Jn 19:25-27
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
KJV

The second condition is a bit more involved.

• Matthew records Joseph’s father as Jacob and descending from David through Solomon.
• Luke records Joseph’s father as Heli and descending from David through Nathan.
• The two records are very different and suggest that they are not the genealogies of the same person, but two different ones.
• In the first verse of Luke’s record, Luke states in parentheses “(as was supposed)â€Â. (Nomizo; properly, to do by law, to follow by custom.)
• Jesus’ father was God. Jesus’ mother was the virgin, Mary. His step-father was Joseph.
• Joseph was obviously from the house of David, of the tribe of Judah.
• The genealogy in Luke belongs to the only one left, which is Mary. Therefore, Mary is of the house of David and of the tribe of Judah. So the second condition is also met.

Summary:
Jesus Christ our Lord and savior is “a remnant of the house of Judahââ, from “the root of Jesseâ€Â, and “from the house of Davidâ€Â. He was “made of the seed of David according to the flesh†through Mary.

:) :wink: :smt038
 
Lostkid said:
The fact of the matter is that, looking biblically, Jesus Christ makes his deity perfectly clear by fulfilling all messianic prophecy as well as accepting worship, forgiving sins, and performing miracles - things only God has the ability to do (illustrating his divinity).

Well how bout that? A skeptic understands the Biblical portrayal of Jesus better than most of the people around here. Maybe you need to participate in my Jesus is God thread.

;)
 
No offense taken. But to seek the truth from the websites you have mentioned would be like attempting to seek a carpenter to repair your computer.
Hehe, that was good. :D How about seeking out a Carpenter to repair mankind of it's bent and broken heart? ;-)
 
GraceBwithU said:
einstein said:
There are many websites which can fully explain why Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah as described in the Tanakh. Try jewsforjudaism as a start. Let me just add, that according to the gospels, his genealogy as described rules him out without even mentioning his failure to satisfy multiple other requirements as per the Tanakh. No offense meant here. That's just the way it is. In order to understand you should obtain or refer to a Jewish translation of the Tanakh, unless you are fluent in Hebrew. :)

No offense taken. But to seek the truth from the websites you have mentioned would be like attempting to seek a carpenter to repair your computer.

His genealogy that you mentioned however is one of the main things that does prove he is the messiah.


Mt 1:1-16
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
KJV

Genealogies were very important to the Jews. Public records recorded genealogies from the oldest to the youngest, and private records went from the youngest back to the oldest.

Matthew is the public record. Luke records the private record.


Lk 3:23-34
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham,
KJV

Why two genealogies of Jesus? There are two genealogies of Jesus to prove His legal right to the throne of David. In Luke, Joseph is inserted to follow custom, indicated by the word, “(as was supposed)â€Â, NT:3543; Nomizo; properly, to do by law, to follow by custom. It is even in parentheses to draw attention to it. The parentheses are shouting to us, “Take a closer look here!â€Â

If Jesus is; “a remnant of the house of Judahâ€Â, from “the root of Jesseâ€Â, “from the house of David†and “made of the seed of David according to the fleshâ€Â, then certainly Joseph could not be of his immediate paternal bloodline since Joseph was not his natural father. Then the bloodline could only be traced through His mother, Mary. However, since the custom was of using male genealogies only, then how could an ancestral line of Jesus be shown through Mary?

However, women are allowed to be included in the ancestral line if they met two stringent conditions.

1. Num 27:8, "Therefore, tell the Israelites; If a man dies without leaving a son, you shall let his heritage pass on to his daughter."
2. Num 36:6-7, "This is what the Lord commands with regard to the daughters of Salphahad: They may marry anyone they please, provided they marry into a clan of their ancestral tribe, so that no heritage of the Israelites will pass from one tribe to another, but all the Israelites will retain their own ancestral heritage."

So now, all we have to show is that:
1. The father of Mary was dead had no sons.
2. Mary married within her own tribe. Since Joseph was from the tribe of Judah then Mary must also be from the tribe of Judah.

The Bible does not mention any brothers of Mary..

The words of Jesus in John 19:25-27, and lack of evidence of male siblings, strongly suggest that the first condition was satisfied.

Jn 19:25-27
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
KJV

The second condition is a bit more involved.

• Matthew records Joseph’s father as Jacob and descending from David through Solomon.
• Luke records Joseph’s father as Heli and descending from David through Nathan.
• The two records are very different and suggest that they are not the genealogies of the same person, but two different ones.
• In the first verse of Luke’s record, Luke states in parentheses “(as was supposed)â€Â. (Nomizo; properly, to do by law, to follow by custom.)
• Jesus’ father was God. Jesus’ mother was the virgin, Mary. His step-father was Joseph.
• Joseph was obviously from the house of David, of the tribe of Judah.
• The genealogy in Luke belongs to the only one left, which is Mary. Therefore, Mary is of the house of David and of the tribe of Judah. So the second condition is also met.

Summary:
Jesus Christ our Lord and savior is “a remnant of the house of Judahâ€Â, from “the root of Jesseâ€Â, and “from the house of Davidâ€Â. He was “made of the seed of David according to the flesh†through Mary.

:) :wink: :smt038


Well, nice try, but no cigar. ;-)

This type of argument has been used by Christian apologists before, and upon careful analysis based upon the Tanakh, it doesn't hold water.

If I understand your argument, you are stating that 1)Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus, since he was conceived by Mary through the Holy Ghost. 2) The genealogy in Luke is that of Mary and finally, 3) Mary's genealogy is acceptable according to the passages you quoted in Numbers.

Notwithstanding that BOTH genealogies contradict those in the Tanakh (which were compiled by Ezra and Nehemiah centuries before the gospel authors and were undoubtedly more accurate being by centuries in closer temporal proximity), here are the problems posed by your argument:

1)Nowhere in Luke does it state that the genealogy is that of Mary-in fact is says it's of Joseph
2) Tribal affiliation in the Torah is through the biological father, not the mother . Numbers 1:18. Hence listing a mother's genealogy is irrelevant.
3) Even if you ASSUME that Luke's genealogy is Mary's it does not conform to the requirements of the Davidic covenant that clearly states that the Mashiach must be a descendant of David through his son Solomon ( 2 Samuel 7:14, 1 Chronicles 17:11-14 etc) Again, with assumption that Luke's genealogy is that of Mary- it is traced not through Solomon but through Nathan.
4)Your use of Numbers to justify Mary in regards to tribal lineage is incorrect. The ruling wrt to the daughter of Zelophehad refer to inheritance (ie tangible assets) not to "heritage". Again the Torah is quite clear that tribal affiliation is strictly through the biological father. The meaning is proven by the following passages you omitted:

Bamidbar (Numbers 36:2-3) 2."They said, "The Lord commanded my master to give the land as an INHERITANCE BY LOT, to the children of Israel and our master was commanded by the Lord, to give the INHERITANCE of Zelophehad our brother to his daughters." 3. Now, if they marry a member of another tribe of the children of Israel, their INHERITANCE will be diminished from the INHERITANCE of our father, and it will be added to the INHERITANCE of the tribe into which they marry, and thus it will be diminished from the lot of our INHERITANCE.

This makes quite clear we are dealing with tangible assets, property, etc which was to be divided when the children of Israel crossed over the Jordan. You cannot diminish or divide by lot an intangible as tribal affiliation. The context makes it quite obvious the reference is to tangible things.

5)If the Torah clearly states that tribal affiliation is through the biological father and you believe that Jesus' father was the Holy Spirit, by definition, Jesus has no biological father. Remember the Davidic covenant as stated by G-d applied to David's natural descendants-2 Samuel 7:12- When your days are fulfilled, and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your SEED THAT SHALL ISSUE FROM YOUR BODY AFTER YOU, and I will establish his kingdom. :D
 
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