Is John MacArthur misrepresenting Catholicism?

[Dave...]

JOHN MACARTHUR: I was just going to add, the process of justification, and it is a process in the Catholic faith; starts with infant baptism. They say that justification is initiated as a process at infant baptism, and it progresses through life, based upon what you "do" with infused grace. Grace is infused into you supernaturally; it's infused into you through the Mass; it's infused into you through the sacraments, and as it is infused and you cooperate with it—you keep the justifying process going. Now, you can stop that process at any point in time with a mortal sin, but you keep it going even when you get to the end of your life. The odds are that you haven't kept it going good enough and you are going to Purgatory. Nothing could be a more convoluted view of what is an instantaneous act in the Word of God, as he said exactly, by which God places the righteousness of Christ on you. The truth is, I am no more righteous to the satisfaction of God now, than I was before I was declared righteous.

Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity, Parts 4-6

CARL: On behalf of Grace to You , this is Carl Miller, welcoming you to Part Four of “Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity.” This open forum features Jo

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MacArthur says that Catholicism is the single most fertile ground for evangelism in the world.

 

[WIP]

I personally don't give much credence to a non-Catholic's explanation of Catholicism any more than I do for a Catholic to give explanation for a Protestant point of view. In either case, their explanations are likely skewed in one way or another. If you want to understand the Catholic position on justification, it's best to seek an answer from the Catholic church.

We do have a Catholic forum here on CFnet for discussing Catholic doctrine. This may be a good place to post questions about Catholicism.

 

[Dave...]

I'm not able to post there. Maybe each forum needs to be requested?

That's why I asked. I had hoped that Catholics would want to answer.

It's not that difficult to understand, unless the Catholic church want's to hide behind that. It's a fair question. I'm just looking for an honest answer. If you believe it's the truth, then why hide it? Proclaim it, right? I'm just giving them the opportunity. The ecumenical movement cannot stand on anything and still be all things to all people.

The definition given above, I'm sure was taken from their own writings (verified by ex Catholics, no doubt). MacArthur's church is loaded with ex Catholics. I don't think people just make this stuff up.

Catholicism always falls back on 'you just don't understand'. What muddies the waters is that their defense is usually, "where not really doing what we are doing" or "we're not really saying what we're saying". And then the victimhood. I don't think it's a tough question if one wants to be honest. Quite frankly, you need to pry to get the truth of what they believe from them. Everything is hidden behind a kind of mask. Ask them if they believe that we're save by grace through faith, in Jesus Christ, and they will answer yes. But add 'alone' at the end of all three to emphasize the truth, then they disagree. A works based salvation hidden being a simple statement of truth. This is what Catholicism does. They will kneel down in front of a statue of Mary and pray to her, but then they claim that they are not really kneeling in front of a statue of Mary and praying to her, that you just don't understand.

It's an honest question.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Is John MacArthur misrepresenting Catholicism?​

Answer: No

From John MacArthur
Salvation by Works

Do you get to heaven by works, by Mary, by penance, by baptism, by confession, by rosary. No this is another gospel. This is not the true gospel. Salvation is by faith alone, not in Catholicism by a combination of grace and faith and works. We know that Romans 3:20 says no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law. Romans 3:26 says God justifies those who have faith alone in Christ alone. Romans 3:28 says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 4 says Abraham was justified not by works for if he was justified by works he had something to boast about but what does the scriptures say: he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Now when a man works his wages are not credited to him as a gift but as an obligation; however, to the man who doesn't work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The Catholic system maintains that salvation is something you earn by your works. You merit it and you receive it because of your merit. That is another gospel. There hundreds of canons that came out of the Roman Catholic Council of Trent. For example:

• if anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema
• if anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy which remit sins for Christ's sake or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us let him be an anathema
• if anyone says that the righteousness received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained and not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. In other words true believers understood that works are the result of justification, not the cause. But if you say that you’re curse by Roman Catholicism the Council of Trent

The idea is you keep doing more works, more works, more works. You increase grace when you increase works and together you achieve a higher and higher rate of sanctification which they call justification until finally you have attained eternal life. If you don't believe that you attain your eternal life by your works, you're cursed. Did Pope John Paul II believe that, of course he believed that … why, because the church is infallible. Catholic theology can't be amended because it's infallible and he is the faithful guardian of that system.

It breaks my heart to see so many people in that system who can't discern truth from error genuine Christianity from its counterfeit and my heart really breaks to hear from Protestant evangelicals that this man was a true Christian leading others to true Christianity.

______________________________________________________

The foundational difference between protestantism and the R.C. is that protestantism bases their theology on the Bible alone while the R.C. depend on the Magisterium ( especially as exercised by bishops or the Pope) for their theology. These guys determine the meaning of the Bible and can add to it with what they call tradition.
To an extent each side thinks the other is going to hell. Now there's an interesting question. *giggle*

 

[follower]

It's an honest question.

Perhaps, perhaps with faulty information.
Years ago, (see searches today online easy of this), (I think),
that guy was confirmed many ways, many times over, as a false gospel , not following Jesus. So many people were taken in by him, it was impossible on forums to confirm (meaning they were also gone astray?)

 

[Dave...]

Perhaps, perhaps with faulty information.
Years ago, (see searches today online easy of this), (I think),
that guy was confirmed many ways, many times over, as a false gospel , not following Jesus. So many people were taken in by him, it was impossible on forums to confirm (meaning they were also gone astray?)

But isn't that the point of the question, to clear up any faulty information?

As I'm remerging, yesterday I was glad that I wasn't able to post this in the Catholic forum. My thought was that I think I'll leave them their space. They can come out and play with the rest of us if they so desire. That's about as non confrontational as I know how to be while still seeking honest answers.

Dave

 

[follower]

Correction , even exhortation, with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, is seriously lacking.
The rules prevent honest answers most places, most forums, most religious groups - the groups are adhering to, following another voice, and like Keith Green's song - "Jesus knocked at the door; we left Him out in the rain"... and so on.
The wise man loves criticism - any criticism not just friendly criticism.... (see again Proverbs)....
Instead of being wise, everyone continues basking in the error of their ways along with everyone else not being corrected.
The forums are a lot different today than they used to be , and NOT in a good way.... a lot of mushy mush..... "get along" attitude, and if someone attempts to correct a very serious error even, soft pedal it, make it go away....

But isn't that the point of the question, to clear up any faulty information?

As I'm remerging, yesterday I was glad that I wasn't able to post this in the Catholic forum. My thought was that I think I'll leave them their space. They can come out and play with the rest of us if they so desire. That's about as non confrontational as I know how to be while still seeking honest answers.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Correction , even exhortation, with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, is seriously lacking.
The rules prevent honest answers most places, most forums, most religious groups - the groups are adhering to, following another voice, and like Keith Green's song - "Jesus knocked at the door; we left Him out in the rain"... and so on.
The wise man loves criticism - any criticism not just friendly criticism.... (see again Proverbs)....
Instead of being wise, everyone continues basking in the error of their ways along with everyone else not being corrected.
The forums are a lot different today than they used to be , and NOT in a good way.... a lot of mushy mush..... "get along" attitude, and if someone attempts to correct a very serious error even, soft pedal it, make it go away....

Iron sharpens iron. What ruins the discussions, in my opinion, at least one side of the coin, is idolatry.

Somebody mentioned in another thread, maybe it was you, that they got kicked off of a reformed forum for questioning a standard reformed doctrine. I've had a similar forum experience, though, it was a while ago on another forum far far away in another Galaxy. In my case, I wasn't kicked off, but posts were deleted down to having no real substance. They just removed scripture. I didn't even post what the scripture said. I just gave book, chapter, and verse for my thoughts as I was sharing them. It had to do with Hades and OT saints, being born again, baptism with the holy Spirit. It was such a foreign idea to this lead Moderator, that the arguments were not comfortably laid out for him to go down the old reformed responses list and tell his standard pat answer. I agree that it can be more difficult to have a good discussion with some reformed believers if you take them out of their comfort zones. They are used to beating up on liberal theology, which is mostly idolatry and easy to refute with scripture. In other places It's hard to get a discussion off the ground in any meaningful kind of way. That's the other side of the coin mentioned above.

I understand forums that are strict, to promote good discussions, but sometimes that can be misused. As I believe that it was in my case as mentioned above. I just left.

I was a moderator for a while on another forum about twenty years ago. It's not an easy job. They were strict and weren't afraid to kick people off that were disruptive and offered nothing but the same old bumper sticker slogan. When I'm reading some posts here, I'm thinking... (Yep, you'd be gone). Another reason why I wouldn't be a good Moderator.

The problem is people aren't perfect. It's definitely out of season, and most people who hear or read what we say are not even going to care what it says. They are just looking for a sound board to bounce their slogans off of.

Anyways, there are a few to be pulled out of the fire. That's they way to look at it. There are some who genuinely want to learn, and want to be challenged in what they believe is the truth. That way if there are any bugs in the system, we can have them pointed out, removed and/or fixed, hence, Iron sharpen iron.

I try to be kind, even when I don't want to. If I get kicked off a forum, then maybe it was meant to be. The cost, always the cost.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iron sharpens iron. What ruins the discussions, in my opinion, at least one side of the coin, is idolatry.

Somebody mentioned in another thread, maybe it was you, that they got kicked off of a reformed forum for questioning a standard reformed doctrine. I've had a similar forum experience, though, it was a while ago on another forum far far away in another Galaxy. In my case, I wasn't kicked off, but posts were deleted down to having no real substance. They just removed scripture. I didn't even post what the scripture said. I just gave book, chapter, and verse for my thoughts as I was sharing them. It had to do with Hades and OT saints, being born again, baptism with the holy Spirit. It was such a foreign idea to this lead Moderator, that the arguments were not comfortably laid out for him to go down the old reformed responses list and tell his standard pat answer. I agree that it can be more difficult to have a good discussion with some reformed believers if you take them out of their comfort zones. They are used to beating up on liberal theology, which is mostly idolatry and easy to refute with scripture. In other places It's hard to get a discussion off the ground in any meaningful kind of way. That's the other side of the coin mentioned above.

I understand forums that are strict, to promote good discussions, but sometimes that can be misused. As I believe that it was in my case as mentioned above. I just left.

I was a moderator for a while on another forum about twenty years ago. It's not an easy job. They were strict and weren't afraid to kick people off that were disruptive and offered nothing but the same old bumper sticker slogan. When I'm reading some posts here, I'm thinking... (Yep, you'd be gone). Another reason why I wouldn't be a good Moderator.

The problem is people aren't perfect. It's definitely out of season, and most people who hear or read what we say are not even going to care what it says. They are just looking for a sound board to bounce their slogans off of.

Anyways, there are a few to be pulled out of the fire. That's they way to look at it. There are some who genuinely want to learn, and want to be challenged in what they believe is the truth. That way if there are any bugs in the system, we can have them pointed out, removed and/or fixed, hence, Iron sharpen iron.

I try to be kind, even when I don't want to. If I get kicked off a forum, then maybe it was meant to be. The cost, always the cost.

Hey Dave
Too bad you're not still around.
I would have enjoyed having this convo with you. Sounds like we actually could have discussed....

 

[follower]

Iron sharpens iron. What ruins the discussions, in my opinion, at least one side of the coin, is idolatry.

Idolatry is sin.

 

[JLB]

Do you get to heaven by works, by Mary, by penance, by baptism, by confession, by rosary. No this is another gospel.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Hey Dave
Too bad you're not still around.
I would have enjoyed having this convo with you. Sounds like we actually could have discussed....

Please share from your perspective.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Justification was finished on the cross, once you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, your sins are nailed on the cross, there's no process; however, after justification is sanctification, which IS a process, a lifelong process, justification is only the starting point of sanctification. Salvation is not tied to work, BLESSING is tied to work. In summary, Salvation refers to redemption and eternal life through Jesus Christ. Blessing in the Bible refers to the favor and goodness bestowed by God upon individuals or groups, big difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please share from your perspective.

It seemed to me that @Dave,,,a member that apparently is no longer with us,
wanted to have an honest conversation.

Most will come here just to argue.
It has already started with 2 other members on this very thread.

I'll state my overall view:
The CC does not change the nature of God.
It teaches the basic tenets of the Christian religion (one of the big 3 religions).
It has added to scripture since it did not teach some of its doctrine in the early church
(which I believe was Catholic, the universal church, known today as the CC).
It bases its teachings on HOW they understand scripture.
I have no idea what ORAL TEACHINGS are.
What I DO know is that they use church fathers for some teachings...all of which, I must say, are to be
found somewhere in the bible (as they understand scripture) except for one teaching I'm unable to find anywhere in the written word, and that would be indulgences.

I believe persons in the CC, if they can find a good bible study, will be taught the teachings of Jesus.
I believe it's unfortunate that this church went astray by getting involved with politics in the 4th century...
by adding teachings that are not found in the bible, and by leading persons to the CHURCH instead of to JESUS...which is no longer the case, BTW.

For anyone reading along that does not know me,
I do want to clarify, as I always do, that I'm not Catholic and am not going to defend the Catholic church.
I DO find it sad that we have incorrect beliefs about the CC, as they have incorrect beliefs about Protestantism.

 

[Corinth77777]

Justification was finished on the cross, once you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, your sins are nailed on the cross, there's no process; however, after justification is sanctification, which IS a process, a lifelong process, justification is only the starting point of sanctification. Salvation is not tied to work, BLESSING is tied to work. In summary, Salvation refers to redemption and eternal life through Jesus Christ. Blessing in the Bible refers to the favor and goodness bestowed by God upon individuals or groups, big difference.

How do you define Salvation?

 

[donadams]

JOHN MACARTHUR: I was just going to add, the process of justification, and it is a process in the Catholic faith; starts with infant baptism. They say that justification is initiated as a process at infant baptism, and it progresses through life, based upon what you "do" with infused grace. Grace is infused into you supernaturally; it's infused into you through the Mass; it's infused into you through the sacraments, and as it is infused and you cooperate with it—you keep the justifying process going. Now, you can stop that process at any point in time with a mortal sin, but you keep it going even when you get to the end of your life. The odds are that you haven't kept it going good enough and you are going to Purgatory. Nothing could be a more convoluted view of what is an instantaneous act in the Word of God, as he said exactly, by which God places the righteousness of Christ on you. The truth is, I am no more righteous to the satisfaction of God now, than I was before I was declared righteous.

Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity, Parts 4-6

CARL: On behalf of Grace to You , this is Carl Miller, welcoming you to Part Four of “Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity.” This open forum features Jo

www.gty.org

MacArthur says that Catholicism is the single most fertile ground for evangelism in the world.

are christians required to grow?

grow in grace?
grow in righteousness "holiness"?

thanks

 

[donadams]

JOHN MACARTHUR: I was just going to add, the process of justification, and it is a process in the Catholic faith; starts with infant baptism. They say that justification is initiated as a process at infant baptism, and it progresses through life, based upon what you "do" with infused grace. Grace is infused into you supernaturally; it's infused into you through the Mass; it's infused into you through the sacraments, and as it is infused and you cooperate with it—you keep the justifying process going. Now, you can stop that process at any point in time with a mortal sin, but you keep it going even when you get to the end of your life. The odds are that you haven't kept it going good enough and you are going to Purgatory. Nothing could be a more convoluted view of what is an instantaneous act in the Word of God, as he said exactly, by which God places the righteousness of Christ on you. The truth is, I am no more righteous to the satisfaction of God now, than I was before I was declared righteous.

Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity, Parts 4-6

CARL: On behalf of Grace to You , this is Carl Miller, welcoming you to Part Four of “Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity.” This open forum features Jo

www.gty.org

MacArthur says that Catholicism is the single most fertile ground for evangelism in the world.

not quote right!

the process of salvation

Redemption, Justification, sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:4 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Matt 24:14 endures to the end.

Purification: no unclean thing enter the heavenly realms of glory!

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Glorification:

Suffering with Christ is required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him!

Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 Matt 19:22 endure to the end in union with Christ and his saints by grace with good works.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

note: those in purgatory are saved.

thks

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How do you define Salvation?

Eternal life with God our creator.

 

[Corinth77777]

Eternal life with God our creator.

And what does that look like now to you?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And what does that look like now to you?

That "looks“ exactly the same. The right question is, what does that FEEL like now? If you have a relationship with God, you'd feel his presence in your life, as He satisfies you and gives you peace in your heart, your anxiety, sorrow, resentment all fade away; instead of being driven by a desire for all the worldly possessions and carnal pleasures, you're now driven by a desire to know him more, pursue him more and experience him more.