Is John MacArthur misrepresenting Catholicism?

[GodsGrace]

I’m not looking to be argumentative here, but I can provide Scripture showing that OSAS is biblically supported, according to the Greek text and syntax.

Let’s leave it at that for now--I don’t want to come across as confrontational.

I did not join this Forum "to steal the show" and prefer to post as little as possible.

J.

I agree that this shouldn't be turned into a OSAS thread.

 

[Free]

How could salvation already be accomplised if Jesus stated that we must endure to the end?

IF we endure to the end , we are saved.

That would be glorification, not initial salvation.

We can know we are saved right now.
Whether or not we are saved 10, 20, 30 years from now, remains to be seen.

If we are not saved 10, 20, or 30 years from now, then is Paul wrong that God will complete the work he began in us (Phil. 1:6; see also 1Thes. 5:23-24; 2Thes. 2:13-14)? It would mean that after being declared righteous by being clothed with the righteousness of Christ, that God can remove Christ's righteousness from us.

This is one of those paradoxes. It comes down to whether or not we can lose our salvation.

 

[Free]

Did I say anything contrary, Free? It seems there's been quite a bit of confusion since I posted this, right? Why not just ask me directly what's on your mind? Are you suggesting that I might deviate from the gospel or salvation and possibly introduce a heteron pseudo-gospel in some way?

Probably going to get into trouble for asking questions now, right?

GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

Salvation is not a product, but a daily relationship with God in Christ. It is not finished when one trusts Christ; it has only begun (an example may be a gate and then a road, cf. Matt. 7:13-14)! It is not a fire insurance policy, nor a ticket to heaven, but a life of growing Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3,7; 5:23; 1 Pet. 1:15; see SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN GROWTH). We have a proverbial saying in America that says the longer a couple lives together, the more they begin to look alike. This is the goal of salvation (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SALVATION [NT])! Salvation is an initial response followed by a daily response throughout life (see SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT ). All of the Greek VERB TENSES are used to describe NT spiritual salvation.

SALVATION AS A COMPLETED ACTION (AORIST)

 ● Acts 15:11; 16:31

 ● Romans 8:24

 ● 2 Timothy 1:9

 ● Titus 3:5

 ● Romans 13:11 (combines the AORIST with a future orientation)

SALVATION AS A STATE OF BEING BROUGHT ABOUT BY A PREVIOUS ACT (PERFECT)

 ● Ephesians 2:5,8

SALVATION AS A CONTINUING PROCESS THROUGH LIFE (PRESENT)

 ● 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15:2

 ● 2 Corinthians 2:15

 ● Philippians 2:12

 ● 1 Peter 3:21

SALVATION AS A FUTURE CONSUMMATION (FUTURE in VERB TENSE or context)

 ● Romans 5:9,10; 10:9,13

 ● 1 Corinthians 3:15; 5:5

 ● Philippians 1:28

 ● 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9

 ● Hebrews 1:14; 9:28

 ● 1 Peter 1:5

Therefore, NT salvation begins with an initial faith decision (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 10:9-13), but this must issue in lifestyle faith (cf. Rom. 8:29; Gal. 2:19-20; Eph. 1:4; 2:10), which will one day be consummated in sight (cf. 1 John 3:2). This final state is called glorification (cf. Rom. 8:28-30). This process can be illustrated as

initial salvation ‒ justification (saved from the penalty of sin)
progressive salvation ‒ sanctification (saved from the power of sin)
final salvation ‒ glorification (saved from the presence of sin)
For a good discussion of this threefold aspect of salvation, see Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, pp. 311-313.

SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

Salvation (Greek Verb Tenses) -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION

Sanctification -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

Which is in full agreement with what you said, correct?

J.

We essentially agree. My only point of contention is with the use of "progressive salvation," since justification alone (as far as I can tell) also includes being saved from the wrath of God (not just the power of sin).

 

[Johann!@#]

We essentially agree. My only point of contention is with the use of "progressive salvation," since justification alone (as far as I can tell) also includes being saved from the wrath of God (not just the power of sin).

We’re on the same page regarding justification, sanctification, and salvation, Free. Just to clarify, I’m not a Calvinist, Catholic, or aligned with Reformed theology...I’m a Baptist minister.

This ongoing debate about "progressive salvation" is getting a bit tiresome--no offense intended. I don’t want to overstep any boundaries or break any rules, but I do agree that sanctification is progressive, and I’m in agreement with the rest of what you said.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would be glorification, not initial salvation.


If we are not saved 10, 20, or 30 years from now, then is Paul wrong that God will complete the work he began in us (Phil. 1:6; see also 1Thes. 5:23-24; 2Thes. 2:13-14)? It would mean that after being declared righteous by being clothed with the righteousness of Christ, that God can remove Christ's righteousness from us.

This is one of those paradoxes. It comes down to whether or not we can lose our salvation.

God will complete His work in us....if we allow Him to.
We must believe man has free will first.
Nothing can snatch us out of the hand of God,,,
but we can willingly walk away from Him.

We can't just "lose" our salvation....but we can decide that we no longer wish to worship God.
This would be the falling away Paul speaks of.

When I first was saved many years ago (over 40 years ago) and left the CC,,,I began bible study and was taught that we are "covered" with the righteousness of Jesus. I don't believe this is correct anymore.

I believe we are saved for as long as we want to be.
Paul said we could fall away....fall away from what?

I could post several verses that state that we must endure to the end.

Jesus said the Prodigal Son was found AGAIN....
so he was found, lost, found again.

I really don't think this is the place and we'll never agree....but I'm willing.
Except it's almost midnight here....so I leave it to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would be glorification, not initial salvation.

Wait....what do you mean?
Glorification comes after death.
Agreed?

If we are not saved 10, 20, or 30 years from now, then is Paul wrong that God will complete the work he began in us (Phil. 1:6; see also 1Thes. 5:23-24; 2Thes. 2:13-14)? It would mean that after being declared righteous by being clothed with the righteousness of Christ, that God can remove Christ's righteousness from us.

This is one of those paradoxes. It comes down to whether or not we can lose our salvation.

 

[Johann!@#]

Wait....what do you mean?
Glorification comes after death.
Agreed?

I can help, but that would put me in the spotlight, and that’s not where I want to be.

Shalom sorella.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can help, but that would put me in the spotlight, and that’s not where I want to be.

Shalom sorella.

J.

No spot lights around here Johann
The rule to keep is to treat everyone with respect....
the rule we should follow even in every day life.
We're here to discuss....no problems.

If you have something to say about glorification....please do so.
There's always something new to learn and the only way to do this
is to talk about it.

 

[Johann!@#]

No spot lights around here Johann
The rule to keep is to treat everyone with respect....
the rule we should follow even in every day life.
We're here to discuss....no problems.

If you have something to say about glorification....please do so.
There's always something new to learn and the only way to do this
is to talk about it.

I do believe we are already off topic.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do believe we are already off topic.

J.

As you wish.

 

[Johann!@#]

As you wish.

Maybe you can help me explain to others how to use Microsoft Paint on this forum...it works on other platforms but not here...to highlight verses properly in terms of context, grammar, and morphology.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe you can help me explain to others how to use Microsoft Paint on this forum...it works on other platforms but not here...to highlight verses properly in terms of context, grammar, and morphology.

J.

LOL
It works....
You just can't see the highlight!
I guess it makes for a cleaner, more modern look. Personally I like the highlight to be very visible.
Try it.

 

[Johann!@#]

LOL
It works....
You just can't see the highlight!
I guess it makes for a cleaner, more modern look. Personally I like the highlight to be very visible.
Try it.

Nope, I use Scripture4All as my go-to for some of the paradoxical verses. I copy it to Paint and then post it here, but no luck.

Johann.

LOL
It works....
You just can't see the highlight!
I guess it makes for a cleaner, more modern look. Personally I like the highlight to be very visible.
Try it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

how can we abide in Christ and bear fruit?

In that order, abide in Christ first, so you can bear fruit. If you attempt to bear fruit first to abide in Christ, you'll achieve neither.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree that this shouldn't be turned into a OSAS thread.

It's a waste of time to argue with those who don't understand the difference between salvation and BLESSING.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope, I use Scripture4All as my go-to for some of the paradoxical verses. I copy it to Paint and then post it here, but no luck.

Johann.

Sorry J...
I misunderstood you....

I use this site's tools for enlarging words or changing their color.
I'd never use paint since, to me, it's just an extra step.

Everything you need is right here...for these purposes....
I can't remember anything on your posts that would require Paint.
But only You can know that.

So I can't be of help.
Sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's a waste of time to argue with those who don't understand the difference between salvation and BLESSING.

I'm not sure I understand it!

My understanding is that everything from God is a blessing.
The initial grace we need to get saved is a blessing.
Salvation is a blessing.

Do you agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

In that order, abide in Christ first, so you can bear fruit. If you attempt to bear fruit first to abide in Christ, you'll achieve neither.

I believe all Christians understand this....

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'm not sure I understand it!

My understanding is that everything from God is a blessing.
The initial grace we need to get saved is a blessing.
Salvation is a blessing.

Do you agree?

No. Salvation is unmerited favor, blessing is merited favor. Salvation is free, blessing is earned. Salvation is achieved by grace through faith alone, blessing is achieved through obedience through work. See Deut. 28, a short list of blessings for obedience and a long list of curses for disobedience. You know why prosperity gospel is a sham? Blessing is conflated with salvation, that's why. God never promised blessing, including but not limited to worldly benefits, by grace through faith alone. Jacob wrestled with God all night for a blessing, at the cost of a broken hip!

 

[GodsGrace]

No. Salvation is unmerited favor, blessing is merited favor. Salvation is free, blessing is earned. Salvation is achieved by grace through faith alone, blessing is achieved through obedience through work. See Deut. 28, a short list of blessings for obedience and a long list of curses for disobedience. You know why prosperity gospel is a sham? Blessing is conflated with salvation, that's why. God never promised blessing, including but not limited to worldly benefits, by grace through faith alone. Jacob wrestled with God all night for a blessing, at the cost of a broken hip!

OK
I see what you mean.

I just see everything good that happens to be a blessing from God.

Now, if you're speaking about formal blessings,,,that would e a different story.
For instance....a priest blesses a couple of their wedding.

I don't understand a blessing to be a merited favor.
Although I do see merit in our relationship with God.

Never thought of this before.