Is John MacArthur misrepresenting Catholicism?

[donadams]

In that order, abide in Christ first, so you can bear fruit. If you attempt to bear fruit first to abide in Christ, you'll achieve neither.

Oh I agree, now how do we have union with Christ? how do we put on Christ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't understand a blessing to be a merited favor.
Although I do see merit in our relationship with God.

Never thought of this before.

Doers, not just hearers of the Lord's teachings are his true disciples, that's why, Matt. 12:48-50.

But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Oh I agree, now how do we have union with Christ? how do we put on Christ?

Be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Conform to his image.

 

[Johann!@#]

Be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Conform to his image.

Occurrences of "Put On" in the Pauline Epistles:
Romans 13:12 -

"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."

ἐνδυσώμεθα (endusōmetha) - Aorist middle subjunctive, suggesting a deliberate and personal decision to clothe oneself.

Romans 13:14 -

"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh..."

ἐνδύσασθε (endysasthe) - Aorist middle imperative, indicating a command to take on the character and life of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:53–54 -

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

ἐνδύσασθαι (endysasthai) - Aorist middle infinitive, referring to a future transformation at the resurrection.

Galatians 3:27 -

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

ἐνεδύσασθε (enedysasthe) - Aorist middle indicative, indicating a completed action of being clothed with Christ through baptism.

Ephesians 4:24 -

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

ἐνδύσασθαι (endysasthai) - Aorist middle infinitive, emphasizing adopting the new nature.

Ephesians 6:11 -

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

ἐνδύσασθε (endysasthe) - Aorist middle imperative, a command to be spiritually equipped.

Colossians 3:10 -

"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him."

ἐνδυσάμενοι (endysamenoi) - Aorist middle participle, indicating the ongoing result of the act of putting on the new nature.

Colossians 3:12 -

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering."

ἐνδύσασθε (endysasthe) - Aorist middle imperative, calling for the adoption of virtuous qualities.

Other New Testament Occurrences:
Luke 15:22 (parable of the prodigal son) -

"But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him..."

ἐνδύσατε (endysate) - Aorist active imperative, describing a literal clothing.

2 Corinthians 5:2–4 -

"...we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven."

ἐπενδύσασθαι (ependysasthai) - Aorist middle infinitive, reflecting the desire to be clothed with immortality.


The verb ἐνδύω (endyō) appears approximately 14 times in the Pauline epistles. Paul uses this metaphor of "putting on" both in the sense of adopting a new, Christ-like nature (moral and spiritual transformation) and in eschatological contexts (resurrection and immortality). The metaphor shows a transformation that is both initiated by faith and maintained through a deliberate commitment to live according to the new identity in Christ.

Johann.

 

[Johann!@#]

Oh I agree, now how do we have union with Christ? how do we put on Christ?

donadams

The concept of "union with Christ" is central to Paul's theology, but the term "union" itself does not appear explicitly as a single word in the Greek New Testament. Instead, Paul uses several phrases and words that convey this concept indirectly. These terms and phrases revolve around being "in Christ," being "with Christ," and being joined or united to Him.

1. Key Terms and Synonyms Expressing Union with Christ
Paul uses various Greek prepositions and verbs to convey the concept of union:

a. ἐν Χριστῷ (en Christō) - "In Christ"
This phrase is the most frequent and foundational way Paul expresses union with Christ. It emphasizes being spiritually incorporated into Christ and participating in His life, death, and resurrection.

Appears approximately 73 times in the Pauline epistles.

Examples-

Romans 8:1 - "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

2 Corinthians 5:17 - "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..."

Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father... who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ."

b. σύν Χριστῷ (syn Christō) - "With Christ"
This phrase highlights co-participation in Christ’s experiences, particularly His death and resurrection.

Appears around 11 times in Paul's letters.

Examples-

Romans 6:8 - "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him."

Galatians 2:20 - "I have been crucified with Christ..."

Colossians 2:20 - "If you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world..."

c. ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (en Christō Iēsou) - "In Christ Jesus"
A variation that more explicitly names Jesus as the one in whom believers are united.

Appears around 43 times in the Pauline corpus.

Examples-

Philippians 2:5 - "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus..."

Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

d. ἐν Κυρίῳ (en Kyriō) - "In the Lord"
Expresses a similar sense of union but emphasizes the lordship aspect of Christ.

Appears around 45 times in Paul's letters.

Examples-

1 Corinthians 15:58 - "...knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord."

Ephesians 6:1 - "Children, obey your parents in the Lord..."

e. συνάγω (synagō) - "To gather together"
Although not directly synonymous with union, this verb sometimes indicates gathering into one body or unity in Christ.

Example-

Ephesians 1:10 - "...that He might gather together in one all things in Christ..."

f. ἑνότης (henotēs) - "Unity"
Used to describe the oneness of believers in Christ.

Example-

Ephesians 4:3 - "Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Ephesians 4:13 - "...till we all come to the unity of the faith..."

g. κοινωνία (koinōnia) - "Fellowship" or "Partnership"
Describes sharing in Christ’s life and mission.

Example-

1 Corinthians 1:9 - "God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

2. Broader New Testament Usage-
The concept of union is not limited to Paul. Other NT writers also use similar phrases:

John 15:4 - Jesus uses the metaphor of the vine: "Abide in Me, and I in you..."

1 John 4:13 - "By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us..."

The word "abide" (μένω - menō) captures the essence of remaining in union with Christ.


Paul expresses the concept of union with Christ primarily through phrases involving "in Christ," "with Christ," "in the Lord," and terms related to unity and fellowship. These phrases appear well over 170 times collectively in Paul’s writings, indicating the profound emphasis on believers’ intimate and transformative relationship with Christ. The idea permeates Paul’s theological vision and pastoral exhortation, shaping the Christian identity and calling.

If you would like the εἰς, ἐν, σύν compounds from these passages, I'd be happy to share them.

Johann.

 

[donadams]

Be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Conform to his image.

be baptized with the formula commanded by Christ!

matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

be baptized with the formula commanded by Christ!

matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I (John the Baptist) indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (Matt. 3:11)

 

[donadams]

I'm not able to post there. Maybe each forum needs to be requested?

That's why I asked. I had hoped that Catholics would want to answer.

It's not that difficult to understand, unless the Catholic church want's to hide behind that. It's a fair question. I'm just looking for an honest answer. If you believe it's the truth, then why hide it? Proclaim it, right? I'm just giving them the opportunity. The ecumenical movement cannot stand on anything and still be all things to all people.

The definition given above, I'm sure was taken from their own writings (verified by ex Catholics, no doubt). MacArthur's church is loaded with ex Catholics. I don't think people just make this stuff up.

Catholicism always falls back on 'you just don't understand'. What muddies the waters is that their defense is usually, "where not really doing what we are doing" or "we're not really saying what we're saying". And then the victimhood. I don't think it's a tough question if one wants to be honest. Quite frankly, you need to pry to get the truth of what they believe from them. Everything is hidden behind a kind of mask. Ask them if they believe that we're save by grace through faith, in Jesus Christ, and they will answer yes. But add 'alone' at the end of all three to emphasize the truth, then they disagree. A works based salvation hidden being a simple statement of truth. This is what Catholicism does. They will kneel down in front of a statue of Mary and pray to her, but then they claim that they are not really kneeling in front of a statue of Mary and praying to her, that you just don't understand.

It's an honest question.

you are welcome in the catholic forum anyone can post there! thks

 

[donadams]

Is John MacArthur misrepresenting Catholicism?​

Answer: No

From John MacArthur
Salvation by Works

Do you get to heaven by works, by Mary, by penance, by baptism, by confession, by rosary. No this is another gospel. This is not the true gospel. Salvation is by faith alone, not in Catholicism by a combination of grace and faith and works. We know that Romans 3:20 says no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law. Romans 3:26 says God justifies those who have faith alone in Christ alone. Romans 3:28 says we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 4 says Abraham was justified not by works for if he was justified by works he had something to boast about but what does the scriptures say: he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Now when a man works his wages are not credited to him as a gift but as an obligation; however, to the man who doesn't work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

The Catholic system maintains that salvation is something you earn by your works. You merit it and you receive it because of your merit. That is another gospel. There hundreds of canons that came out of the Roman Catholic Council of Trent. For example:

• if anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema
• if anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy which remit sins for Christ's sake or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us let him be an anathema
• if anyone says that the righteousness received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained and not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema. In other words true believers understood that works are the result of justification, not the cause. But if you say that you’re curse by Roman Catholicism the Council of Trent

The idea is you keep doing more works, more works, more works. You increase grace when you increase works and together you achieve a higher and higher rate of sanctification which they call justification until finally you have attained eternal life. If you don't believe that you attain your eternal life by your works, you're cursed. Did Pope John Paul II believe that, of course he believed that … why, because the church is infallible. Catholic theology can't be amended because it's infallible and he is the faithful guardian of that system.

It breaks my heart to see so many people in that system who can't discern truth from error genuine Christianity from its counterfeit and my heart really breaks to hear from Protestant evangelicals that this man was a true Christian leading others to true Christianity.

______________________________________________________

The foundational difference between protestantism and the R.C. is that protestantism bases their theology on the Bible alone while the R.C. depend on the Magisterium ( especially as exercised by bishops or the Pope) for their theology. These guys determine the meaning of the Bible and can add to it with what they call tradition.
To an extent each side thinks the other is going to hell. Now there's an interesting question. *giggle*

misconception prevents understanding!

In other words true believers understood that works are the result of justification, not the cause.

this is your idea not the council or the divine faith (dogma)

109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.

118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.

We cannot obtain the grace of God by works including justification, once we have the grace of justification we are in union with God and the saints in the grace of Christ!

state of grace!
once in this state we can increase grace by good works!

works?

defined as:

works of the law

natural works devoid of grace and apart from Christ

supernatural works which are also gifts of God!

these are done with grace and in union with Christ

virtues faith, hope, and charity etc
the gifts of the spirit

all thing with Christ!
phil 4:13

nothing apart from Christ!
Jn 15:5

thks

ask mr (not an apostle) MacArthur why the apostles aways offer more grace?
example phip 1:2 Grace be unto you,