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Is Modern Christianity Unknowingly, Mystery Babylon?

Is Modern Christianity Unknowingly, Mystery Babylon?


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Georges

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Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

It's a given that the early RCC in the past (whether through innocent, or diabolical means) incorporated paganisms into it's doctrine and worship. Accomplished by a blending of Judaism, Gnosticism, Mystery Religion with Hellenist Stoic philosophy.

Having said that....

Is Catholicism (and it's Protestant stepchildren) the Mystery to which John refers to? After all Pauline Christianity (the basic building block of mainstream Christianity) is different than the Christianity (Messianic Judaism) that the Torah abiding Apostles of the Chruch at Jerusalem practiced. I do believe that being antiTorah is akin to whoredom....In other words, if you are not true to the Torah (God's Word), and practice religion as opposed to it, isn't that being a whore?



My intial apologies to all the Cathoholics who may be offended by the line of questions....
 
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp

One of the most misunderstood symbols in the book of Revelation is the beast who rises from the sea in chapter 13 (there is also a beast from the land, but this article will not focus on him).

Speculations about the identity of the beast are rampant. Anti-Catholics frequently identify it with a future "restored Roman Empire," which they also wish to connect in one way or another with the Catholic Church.

To find out who the beasts really is, one has to take a serious look at the text in question.

Often people reason like this: The beast has ten horns and rises from the sea (13:1). In Daniel 7, the prophet Daniel saw a series of four beasts rising from the sea, the last of whom had ten horns (Dan. 7:7). Therefore, John’s beast is the same as the fourth beast of Daniel. That beast symbolized the Roman Empire. Therefore, this beast symbolizes the Roman Empire.

One problem with this reasoning is that it focuses only on part of the symbolism in Revelation 13. Not only does the beast John sees have ten horns, like Daniel’s fourth beast, it also has a body like a leopard (13:2a), like Daniel’s third beast (7:6), feet like a bear’s (13:2b), like Daniel’s second beast (7:5), and a mouth like a lion, like Daniel’s first beast (7:4). The beast John sees thus incorporates symbolism from all of Daniel’s four beasts, making it impossible to simply identify it with the fourth of the series.

This is part of the "fusion imagery" which Revelation contains. Just as John saw angels around God’s throne (4:6-8) which incorporated elements of both Isaiah’s seraphim (Is. 6:2-3) and Ezekiel’s cherubim (Ezek. 10:10-14), now he sees a beast which incorporates elements of all the Daniel 7 beasts. This suggests that the new beast is like those fourâ€â€the same kind of thing as they areâ€â€but not to be identified with any one of them.

Another problem is that Daniel’s fourth beast does not symbolize the Roman Empireâ€â€at least not as its primary referent. Instead, its main referent is the kingdom that resulted when Alexander the Great’s kingdom fell apart.

Among the horns of Daniel’s fourth beast arose one particular little horn who blasphemed God (7:8). This little horn symbolizes Antiochus IV ("Antiochus Epiphanes"), the Selucid king who conquered Jerusalem, blasphemed God, and desecrated the temple, and set up the first "abomination of desolation" (Dan. 11:31, 12:11, 1 Macc. 6:7) by setting up an idol of Jupiter Olympus in the holy place. (There are other times an "abomination of desolation" is set up, cf. Matt. 24:15-16, Luke 21:20-21.)

What Daniel’s four beasts have in common is that they are all pagan kingdoms that persecuted and conquered God’s people, Israel. John’s beast is the same kind of thingâ€â€a conquering pagan empire. Since it comes after Daniel’s four beasts, Rome is the logical candidate. But it’s not a future, "restored Roman Empire." It’s the real thing, the pagan Roman Empire of the early centuries. This is confirmed by several lines of evidence.

First, the book of Revelation is explicit in stating that it concerns events that will happen "soon" (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6, 7, 12, 20). This indicates that the bulk of the events of the book (those that precede the Millennium of Rev. 20:1-10, in which we are now living) should take place shortly after the book was written, likely in the A.D. 60s.

Second, we are told that the number of the beast is 666 and that this is the number of a man’s name (13:18). Not coincidentally, the persecuting, pagan Roman Empire was headed in the A.D. 60s by Caesar Nero, whose name happened to add up to 666 in the Hebrew system of letters and numbers. (In Hebrew, "Caesar Nero" = "NRWN QSR" = N 50 + R 200 + W 6 + N 50 + Q 100 + S 60 + R 200 = 666; a variant spelling of the name, NRW QSR, adds up to 616, which some manuscripts have in place of 666).

Third, the seven heads of the beast are identified as seven mountains (17:9). Though this is not certain, these are likely the seven hills on which the city of Rome was built. (Vatican Hill, however, was not one of the seven; it is on the side of the Tiber River opposite the seven.)

Thus there is good evidence that the beast from the sea is the pagan Roman Empire of the first century and, in particular, the emperor at its head. This, again, is like Daniel’s four beasts, who were described both as four kings (Dan 7:17) and four kingdoms (cf. Dan. 7:23).

Further confirmation is found in Revelation speaking of the Jewish temple as if it were still operating (11:1), but soon to be trampled by the gentiles, along with the holy city (11:2). Shortly after Nero’s reign, the gentiles did indeed invade Jerusalem, trample it, and destroy the temple.

This suggests not only that the beast corresponded to the Roman empire in general and Caesar Nero in particular but also that the book of Revelation itself was written sometime in the early A.D. 60s, during Nero’s reign, just before the Jewish War that led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70.
 
http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting ... abylon.asp

Hunting the Whore of Babylon


Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.


#1: Seven Hills



Hunt argues that the Whore "is a city built on seven hills," which he identifies as the seven hills of ancient Rome. This argument is based on Revelation 17:9, which states that the woman sits on seven mountains.

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as "mountain" or "mount." Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21). The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

Even if we grant that the reference is to Rome, which Rome are we talking aboutâ€â€pagan Rome or Christian Rome? As we will see, ancient, pagan Rome fits all of Hunt’s criteria as well, or better, than Rome during the Christian centuries.

Now bring in the distinction between Rome and Vatican Cityâ€â€the city where the Catholic Church is headquarteredâ€â€and Hunt’s claim becomes less plausible. Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.


#2: "Babylon"â€â€What’s in a Name?



Hunt notes that the Whore will be a city "known as Babylon." This is based on Revelation 17:5, which says that her name is "Babylon the Great."

The phrase "Babylon the great" (Greek: Babulon a megala) occurs five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21). Light is shed on its meaning when one notices that Babylon is referred to as "the great city" seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). Other than these, there is only one reference to "the great city." That passage is 11:8, which states that the bodies of God’s two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

"The great city" is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to Jerusalem, symbolically called "Sodom" in the Old Testament (cf. Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56). We also know Jerusalem is the "the great city" of Revelation 11:8 because the verse says it was "where [the] Lord was crucified."

Revelation consistently speaks as if there were only one "great city" ("the great city"), suggesting that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven textsâ€â€Babylon. Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

This suggests that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome. Many Protestant and Catholic commentators have adopted this interpretation. On the other hand, early Church Fathers often referred to Rome as "Babylon," but every references was to pagan Rome, which martyred Christians.


#3: Commits Fornication



Hunt tells us, "The woman is called a ‘whore’ (verse 1), with whom earthly kings ‘have committed fornication’ (verse 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome."

Here Hunt admits that the prophets often referred to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient, pagan Rome also fits the description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with "the kings of the earth" (those nations it conquered).

To identify the Whore as Vatican City, Hunt interprets the fornication as alleged "unholy alliances" forged between Vatican City and other nations, but he fails to cite any reasons why the Vatican’s diplomatic relations with other nations are "unholy."

He also confuses Vatican City with the city of Rome, and he neglects the fact that pagan Rome had "unholy alliances" with the kingdoms it governed (unholy because they were built on paganism and emperor worship).


#4: Clothed in Purple and Red



Hunt states, "She [the Whore] is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (verse 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy." He then cites the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments.

Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of the colorsâ€â€purple for royalty and red for the blood of Christian martyrs. Instead, he is suddenly literal in his interpretation. He understood well enough that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than literal sex, but now he wants to assign the colors a literal, earthly fulfillment in a few vestments of certain Catholic clergy.

Purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. White is. All priests wear white (including bishops and cardinals when they are saying Mass)â€â€even the pope does so.

The purple and scarlet of the Whore are contrasted with the white of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This is a problem for Hunt for three reasons: (a) we have already noted that the dominant color of Catholic clerical vestments is white, which would identify them with New Jerusalem if the color is taken literally; (b) the clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints;" 19:8); implying that the clothing of the Whore should also be given a symbolic meaning; and (c) the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the Whore may be old (apostate) Jerusalemâ€â€a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25–26).

Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red in Catholic symbolism. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs.

It is appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet, if for no other reason because they have been liturgical colors of the true religion since ancient Israel.

Hunt neglects to remind his readers that God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52; Num. 19:6), and that God commanded that the priests’ vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4–8, 15, 33, 39:1–8, 24, 29).


#5: Possesses Great Wealth



Hunt states, "[The Whore’s] incredible wealth next caught John’s eye. She was ‘decked with gold and precious stones and pearls . . . ’ [Rev. 17:4]." The problem is that, regardless of what it had in the past, the modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago. Furthermore, wealth was much more in character with pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, both key economic centers.


#6: A Golden Cup



Hunt states that the Whore "has ‘a golden cup [chalice] in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.’" This is another reference to Revelation 17:4. Then he states that the "Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world."

To make the Whore’s gold cup suggestive of the Eucharistic chalice, Hunt inserts the word "chalice" in square brackets, though the Greek word here is the ordinary word for cup (potarion), which appears thirty-three times in the New Testament and is always translated "cup."

He ignores the fact that the Catholic chalice is used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supperâ€â€a ritual commanded by Christ (Luke 22:19–20; 1 Cor. 11:24–25); he ignores the fact that the majority of Eucharistic chalices Catholics use are not made out of gold, but other materials, such as brass, silver, glass, and even earthenware; he ignores the fact that gold liturgical vessels and utensils have been part of the true religion ever since ancient Israelâ€â€again at the command of God (Ex. 25:38–40, 37:23–24; Num. 31:50–51; 2 Chr. 24:14); and he again uses a literal interpretation, according to which the Whore’s cup is not a single symbol applying to the city of Rome, but a collection of many literal cups used in cities throughout the world. But Revelation tells us that it’s the cup of God’s wrath that is given to the Whore (Rev. 14:10; cf. Rev. 18:6). This has nothing to do with Eucharistic chalices.


#7: The Mother of Harlots



Now for Hunt’s most hilarious argument: "John’s attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman’s forehead: ‘THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH’ (verse 5, [Hunt’s emphasis]). Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others. Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy," which has "made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit."

Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine but a disciplineâ€â€a discipline in the Latin Rite of the Churchâ€â€and even this rite has not always been mandatory. This discipline can scarcely be unbiblical, since Hunt himself says, "The great apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ."

Hunt has again lurched to an absurdly literal interpretation. He should interpret the harlotry of the Whore’s daughters as the same as their mother’s, which is why she is called their mother in the first place. This would make it spiritual or political fornication or the persecution of Christian martyrs (cf. 17:2, 6, 18:6). Instead, Hunt gives the interpretation of the daughters as literal, earthly prostitutes committing literal, earthly fornication.

If Hunt did not have a fixation on the King James Version, he would notice another point that identifies the daughters’ harlotries with that of their mother: The same Greek word (porna) is used for both mother and daughters. The King James Version translates this word as "whore" whenever it refers to the mother, but as "harlot" when it refers to the daughters. Modern translations render it consistently. John sees the "great harlot" (17:1, 15, 16, 19:2) who is "the mother of harlots" (17:5). The harlotries of the daughters must be the same as the mother’s, which Hunt admits is not literal sex!


#8: Sheds the Blood of Saints



Hunt states, "John next notices that the woman is drunkâ€â€not with alcohol but with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . [cf. verse 6]." He then advances charges of brutality and killing by the Inquisitions, supposed forced conversions of nations, and even the Nazi holocaust!

This section of the book abounds with historical errors, not the least of which is his implication that the Church endorses the forced conversion of nations. The Church emphatically does not do so. It has condemned forced conversions as early as the third century (before then they were scarcely even possible), and has formally condemned them on repeated occasions, as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 160, 1738, 1782, 2106–7).

But pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus. And since they were notorious persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future.


#9: Reigns over Kings



For his last argument, Hunt states, "Finally, the angel reveals that the woman ‘is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth’ (verse 18). Is there such a city? Yes, and again only one: Vatican City."

This is a joke. Vatican City has no power over other nations; it certainly does not reign over them. In fact, the Vatican’s very existence has been threatened in the past two centuries by Italian nationalism.

Hunt appeals to power the popes once had over Christian political rulers (neglecting the fact that this was always a limited authority, by the popes’ own admission), but at that time there was no Vatican City. The Vatican only became a separate city in 1929, when the Holy See and Italy signed the Lateran Treaty.

Hunt seems to understand this passage to be talking about Vatican City, since the modern city of Rome is only a very minor political force. If the reign is a literal, political one, then pagan Rome fulfills the requirement far better than Christian Rome ever did.
 
Modern Babylon from my understanding is not going to be a Church, but a country, which is a super power. I won't say anything more here about my belief of who Babylon is.
 
ChristineES said:
Modern Babylon from my understanding is not going to be a Church, but a country, which is a super power. I won't say anything more here about my belief of who Babylon is.
Christine, come join us in the End Times Forum and share your beliefs there. This actually is a good topic for that Forum as well.

"The great city" is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to Jerusalem, symbolically called "Sodom" in the Old Testament (cf. Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56). We also know Jerusalem is the "the great city" of Revelation 11:8 because the verse says it was "where [the] Lord was crucified."

Revelation consistently speaks as if there were only one "great city" ("the great city"), suggesting that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven textsâ€â€Babylon. Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

This suggests that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome. Many Protestant and Catholic commentators have adopted this interpretation. On the other hand, early Church Fathers often referred to Rome as "Babylon," but every references was to pagan Rome, which martyred Christians.
Good job Thess, this is the conclusion I come to in my studies of End Times. I even posted an ancient map of the city of Jerusalem and it's surrounding seven hills, not to mention the many times the city and Nation is called a whore or harlot in the OT.
 
Georges,

While i would vote in your poll is possible, my choice is not offered. I'll explain.

Many believe in a 'literal' translation of 'mystery Babylon'. This, of course is totally dispelled by the 'name' itself, 'mystery'. Therefore a literal translation would obviously be incorrect.

Your postulation of 'the churches' would be a 'much more likely' scenario. Yet, I believe that it is 'something different' than this even.

Christine offers an 'even more likely understanding' in that it is a county, or more precisely, a 'nation'. Wrought by the design of Satan himself, with the appearance of holiness, but with a purpose much more dire.

I won't say which I believe that it is at this time for I am not in a position to discuss this at present. If time will permit in the 'near future' I will gladly discuss my views and understanding of this topic. I too, Vic, would gladly participate in an 'end times' discussion. Daniel and Revelation are what I find most compelling of all the Books of the Bible.

But, for now, I think that Georges has it closer to the 'truth' than he may actually realize. I think that if one were to add up most of what has been offered on this thread, even in such infancy, and understand the implications of every thing offered, the basic 'truth' of Mystery Babylon has already been revealed.

God Bless,

MEC
 
I won't say which I believe that it is at this time for I am not in a position to discuss this at present. If time will permit in the 'near future' I will gladly discuss my views and understanding of this topic. I too, Vic, would gladly participate in an 'end times' discussion. Daniel and Revelation are what I find most compelling of all the Books of the Bible.
Cool, go for it. I will have to dig up some of my older posts since I have nothing new to offer and have posted many times in the past on this very topic.Though, it doesn't differ much from what I already posted here. Trust me, the OT has a LOT to say about who this "harlot" might be. :wink:


*edit to include quote tags*
 
I don't think the question can be answered yes or no as it is phrased.

I do believe the Apostate Church will be (at least part) of Mystery Babylon; however not all of the "Modern" Church is Apostate, only parts of it.
 
I believe it will probably be the Catholic church. Popes, and Jesuits have been very decietful still are and why not in the future....
 
+JMJ+


I believe it will probably be the Catholic church. Popes, and Jesuits have been very decietful still are and why not in the future....


Do you have a response to Thess' post?
 
I actuallt havn't read all the posts yet, I was just writiing down my opinion really quick. But right now I have to get ready for church tonight, so I will read and respond later. :)
 
1. Seven hills- The seven hills could mean literal hills, or it could be a spiritual metophor for something else. I know I have heard rumors that there is 7 hills surrounding Vatican City, but I have no way of knowing the truth in this matter.

2. Babylon, Whats in a name- The connection between Babylon and RCC I'm not sure of, but I do know that the ancient city of Babylon has been dug up and rebuilt by Hussein. I believe the connection may be that Babylon was a city in which many heresies were taught and many things that God said were misinterepreted in Babylon. So it is the same for RCC.

3. Commits Fornication - As Thessalonians source says, many believe that this is related to the practice of "celibacy" by nuns, and preists. But it is well known that not all have kept this, just look at the headlines today about the RCC preists, also it is documented that there have been tunnels dug beneath the preists dorms (not the right word I know) and the nuns, and in these tunnels buriel chambers for the babies that are born, and killed because they were born to nuns. God created us sexual beings, we are not meant to be celibate, although we are to remain celibate until we are married.

4. Clothed in purple and red - again as the source says (btw I have never heard of this Hunt person) the crimson is to stand for the blood of the shed Lamb. ANd purple is the color of royalty, Jesus is royalty. Why the whore is wearing these particular colors I don't know, but here is my interpretation. I believe that the whore is wearing red because she will cause much blood shedding, and purple becuase she is, claims to be, or uses royalty to further her cause.

5. Posses great wealth- What Thess. source says is completely wrong. The Vatican is VERY rich, after all they paid for wars, hired mercenaries, and can afford to pay many people to shut them up from telling the truth. A few though could not be paid enough to shut their mouths about the evil going on inside the Vatican, they have told of immense vaults, filled to the brim in gold artifacts and money.

6. A golden Cup - This statement I believe comes from the fact that RCC seems to be facinated with gold..... walk into any RCC church and what do you see? Gold everywhere. Also the significance of the cup I believe is that the RCC's take the communion too seriously, it is not to be done all the time, and it will not affect wether you go to heaven hell or "purgatory". Purgatory doesn't exist, there is however Abrahams bosom, which is similar, but biblical. And may not exist anymore since CHrists death.

7. Mother of Harlots - ok here is where it gets complicated. The worship of Mary, I believe is the reason for this particular statement. Although Mary wasn't a harlot most certanly, and neither were her children. For this reason we have to go to the story of Nimrod and Jezebel. Nimrod and Jezebel started their own religeon, in which they worshiped the mother (Jezebel) and her infant son (Nimrod) in all paintings and statues found from this religeon they look exactly like.... the RCC's interpretations of Mary and Jesus, the mother holding the son in the same way, the round "halo's" of light around their heads, and in the false religeons interpretations, the child has a crescent moon over his head also. Now this mother child religeon has taken on many names, just about any ancient god has a version of this. I believe that the image of Mary and Jesus that the RCC's worship, is actually the "christianized" version of Jezebel and Nimrod. And that the harlots that are spoken of are those within the RCC who purposly decieve the people in the churches.

8. Shed's blood of the saints- Thats an easy one, everyone has heard of the diet of worms, the inquisttions and most have read Foxes Book of Martyrs.

9. Reigns over Kings - It is no secret that the RCC has paid, and controlled many kings and queens. (bloody Mary) And has a heavy influence on most countries today.
 
1. Seven hills- The seven hills could mean literal hills, or it could be a spiritual metaphor for something else. I know I have heard rumors that there is 7 hills surrounding Vatican City, but I have no way of knowing the truth in this matter.

2. Babylon, Whats in a name- The connection between Babylon and RCC I'm not sure of, but I do know that the ancient city of Babylon has been dug up and rebuilt by Hussein. I believe the connection may be that Babylon was a city in which many heresies were taught and many things that God said were misinterpreted in Babylon. So it is the same for RCC.

3. Commits Fornication - As Thessalonians source says, many believe that this is related to the practice of "celibacy" by nuns, and prists. But it is well known that not all have kept this, just look at the headlines today about the RCC priests, also it is documented that there have been tunnels dug beneath the priests dorms (not the right word I know) and the nuns, and in these tunnels burial chambers for the babies that are born, and killed because they were born to nuns. God created us sexual beings, we are not meant to be celibate, although we are to remain celibate until we are married.

4. Clothed in purple and red - again as the source says (btw I have never heard of this Hunt person) the crimson is to stand for the blood of the shed Lamb. ANd purple is the color of royalty, Jesus is royalty. Why the whore is wearing these particular colors I don't know, but here is my interpretation. I believe that the whore is wearing red because she will cause much blood shedding, and purple because she is, claims to be, or uses royalty to further her cause.

5. Posses great wealth- What Thess. source says is completely wrong. The Vatican is VERY rich, after all they paid for wars, hired mercenaries, and can afford to pay many people to shut them up from telling the truth. A few though could not be paid enough to shut their mouths about the evil going on inside the Vatican, they have told of immense vaults, filled to the brim in gold artifacts and money.

6. A golden Cup - This statement I believe comes from the fact that RCC seems to be fascinated with gold..... walk into any RCC church and what do you see? Gold everywhere. Also the significance of the cup I believe is that the RCC's take the communion too seriously, it is not to be done all the time, and it will not affect wether you go to heaven hell or "purgatory". Purgatory doesn't exist, there is however Abrahams bosom, which is similar, but biblical. And may not exist anymore since CHrists death.

7. Mother of Harlots - ok here is where it gets complicated. The worship of Mary, I believe is the reason for this particular statement. Although Mary wasn't a harlot most certainly, and neither were her children. For this reason we have to go to the story of Nimrod and Jezebel. Nimrod and Jezebel started their own religion, in which they worshiped the mother (Jezebel) and her infant son (Nimrod) in all paintings and statues found from this religion they look exactly like.... the RCC's interpretations of Mary and Jesus, the mother holding the son in the same way, the round "halo's" of light around their heads, and in the false religions interpretations, the child has a crescent moon over his head also. Now this mother child religion has taken on many names, just about any ancient god has a version of this. I believe that the image of Mary and Jesus that the RCC's worship, is actually the "christianized" version of Jezebel and Nimrod. And that the harlots that are spoken of are those within the RCC who purposely deceive the people in the churches.

8. Shed's blood of the saints- Thats an easy one, everyone has heard of the diet of worms, the inquisttions and most have read Foxes Book of Martyrs.

9. Reigns over Kings - It is no secret that the RCC has paid, and controlled many kings and queens. (bloody Mary) And has a heavy influence on most countries today.

I don't mean to bash RCC or catholism. That isn't the reason why I posted this. I posted this because the RCC is a great deceiver and much of the public is unaware of this.. I hope that by reading this some may, at least realize that what they are taught, isn't always truth, and must be filtered through the WOrd of God. I am not attacking catholosim

And I may be wrong about the Whore of Babylon being the RCC, I am not worried about the subject because what I believe about it will not affect my life or wether or not I go to heaven. My opinion about it being the whore simply comes from my reading the Bible and seeing that it seems offly close to the RCC. Perhaps a new religion, or an actual person will be the whore, but we won't know until the end times now will we? :)

May God bless you all.
 
Alannah said:
1. Seven hills- The seven hills could mean literal hills, or it could be a spiritual metaphor for something else. I know I have heard rumors that there is 7 hills surrounding Vatican City, but I have no way of knowing the truth in this matter.

2. Babylon, Whats in a name- The connection between Babylon and RCC I'm not sure of, but I do know that the ancient city of Babylon has been dug up and rebuilt by Hussein. I believe the connection may be that Babylon was a city in which many heresies were taught and many things that God said were misinterpreted in Babylon. So it is the same for RCC.

3. Commits Fornication - As Thessalonians source says, many believe that this is related to the practice of "celibacy" by nuns, and prists. But it is well known that not all have kept this, just look at the headlines today about the RCC priests, also it is documented that there have been tunnels dug beneath the priests dorms (not the right word I know) and the nuns, and in these tunnels burial chambers for the babies that are born, and killed because they were born to nuns. God created us sexual beings, we are not meant to be celibate, although we are to remain celibate until we are married.

4. Clothed in purple and red - again as the source says (btw I have never heard of this Hunt person) the crimson is to stand for the blood of the shed Lamb. ANd purple is the color of royalty, Jesus is royalty. Why the whore is wearing these particular colors I don't know, but here is my interpretation. I believe that the whore is wearing red because she will cause much blood shedding, and purple because she is, claims to be, or uses royalty to further her cause.

5. Posses great wealth- What Thess. source says is completely wrong. The Vatican is VERY rich, after all they paid for wars, hired mercenaries, and can afford to pay many people to shut them up from telling the truth. A few though could not be paid enough to shut their mouths about the evil going on inside the Vatican, they have told of immense vaults, filled to the brim in gold artifacts and money.

6. A golden Cup - This statement I believe comes from the fact that RCC seems to be fascinated with gold..... walk into any RCC church and what do you see? Gold everywhere. Also the significance of the cup I believe is that the RCC's take the communion too seriously, it is not to be done all the time, and it will not affect wether you go to heaven hell or "purgatory". Purgatory doesn't exist, there is however Abrahams bosom, which is similar, but biblical. And may not exist anymore since CHrists death.

7. Mother of Harlots - ok here is where it gets complicated. The worship of Mary, I believe is the reason for this particular statement. Although Mary wasn't a harlot most certainly, and neither were her children. For this reason we have to go to the story of Nimrod and Jezebel. Nimrod and Jezebel started their own religion, in which they worshiped the mother (Jezebel) and her infant son (Nimrod) in all paintings and statues found from this religion they look exactly like.... the RCC's interpretations of Mary and Jesus, the mother holding the son in the same way, the round "halo's" of light around their heads, and in the false religions interpretations, the child has a crescent moon over his head also. Now this mother child religion has taken on many names, just about any ancient god has a version of this. I believe that the image of Mary and Jesus that the RCC's worship, is actually the "christianized" version of Jezebel and Nimrod. And that the harlots that are spoken of are those within the RCC who purposely deceive the people in the churches.

8. Shed's blood of the saints- Thats an easy one, everyone has heard of the diet of worms, the inquisttions and most have read Foxes Book of Martyrs.

9. Reigns over Kings - It is no secret that the RCC has paid, and controlled many kings and queens. (bloody Mary) And has a heavy influence on most countries today.

I don't mean to bash RCC or catholism. That isn't the reason why I posted this. I posted this because the RCC is a great deceiver and much of the public is unaware of this.. I hope that by reading this some may, at least realize that what they are taught, isn't always truth, and must be filtered through the WOrd of God. I am not attacking catholosim

And I may be wrong about the Whore of Babylon being the RCC, I am not worried about the subject because what I believe about it will not affect my life or wether or not I go to heaven. My opinion about it being the whore simply comes from my reading the Bible and seeing that it seems offly close to the RCC. Perhaps a new religion, or an actual person will be the whore, but we won't know until the end times now will we? :)

May God bless you all.

I completely agree. Not for a reason has RCC taken off the title given to Pope in the early days of Church (first few centuries): Vicari Filis Dei, which would be easly translated to Antichrist.

Another point: B16 is being persecuted for hiding child molesters in the US, when he was not yet a Pope. Could it be that they have chosen him because otherwiese, not being head of a country, he cold be sentenced and [probably] put in prison for his entire life?
 
+JMJ+

I completely agree. Not for a reason has RCC taken off the title given to Pope in the early days of Church (first few centuries): Vicari Filis Dei, which would be easly translated to Antichrist.

Vicari Filis Dei was never a title for the popes, it was given only to Peter (In passing.) After that, the Church only stuck with, 'Vicar of Christ' and 'Servant of the Servants of God'.

How would Vicari Filis Dei translate to Antichrist? Or do you mean the 'Beast' (666)? If so, wouldn't it make more sense if it were Nero?

Another point: B16 is being persecuted for hiding child molesters in the US, when he was not yet a Pope.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you show me some documentation? Thanks.

Could it be that they have chosen him because otherwiese, not being head of a country, he cold be sentenced and [probably] put in prison for his entire life?

Hardly. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was elected Pope simply because the Cardinals (Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) knew he was the "best man for the job". By no means was this "We better elect him or Joe's going to jail". Many, my self included, saw his election coming long ago.
 
Vicari Filis Dei was never a title for the popes, it was given only to Peter (In passing.) After that, the Church only stuck with, 'Vicar of Christ' and 'Servant of the Servants of God'.

First of all - it has been used by the first popes after Peter. Second of all - "Vicari Filis Dei" is synonymous to "Vicar of Christ", so issue is still very valid.

How would Vicari Filis Dei translate to Antichrist? Or do you mean the 'Beast' (666)? If so, wouldn't it make more sense if it were Nero?

"The English word Antichrist is taken from the Greek αντίχριστος antíkhristos, which literally means "instead of Christ"" - this is how it translates to Antichrist. Vicar is someone who holds function of someone who has gone away temporarly or permanently.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you show me some documentation? Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist

Hardly. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was elected Pope simply because the Cardinals (Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) knew he was the "best man for the job". By no means was this "We better elect him or Joe's going to jail". Many, my self included, saw his election coming long ago.

There's no inspiration of the Holy Spirit whatsoever. Even Ratzinger claimed that you win elections through best political campaign and not through some inspiration...

He was the "best man for the job" because he was capable to providing safety for child molesters? Didn't know that was God's plan, now I know why I left RCC...
 
+JMJ+

First of all - it has been used by the first popes after Peter. Second of all - "Vicari Filis Dei" is synonymous to "Vicar of Christ", so issue is still very valid.

Would you mind naming a few Popes?

"The English word Antichrist is taken from the Greek αντίχριστος antíkhristos, which literally means "instead of Christ"" - this is how it translates to Antichrist.

Interesting. If I follow you correctly, you do believe that the Pope is the Antichrist?

[quote:7ecea]Another point: B16 is being persecuted for hiding child molesters in the US, when he was not yet a Pope.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you show me some documentation? Thanks.

[/quote:7ecea]

I meant documentation for the accusation for Pope Benedict XVI hiding child molesters...not the Anitchrist. :)

There's no inspiration of the Holy Spirit whatsoever. Even Ratzinger claimed that you win elections through best political campaign and not through some inspiration...

Where did you hear that? It is impossible to camapaign for the Papacy. Ballots are cast in total secrecy. Even if you could campaign, it wouldn't be very smart on the Cardinal's part. Theirs an old saying in reference to the conlcave, "The man who walks in wanting to be Pope leaves a Cardinal"

I've never heard Cardinal Ratzinger say anything like that.

He was the "best man for the job" because he was capable to providing safety for child molesters?

I still can't find any documentation.

Didn't know that was God's plan, now I know why I left RCC...

I'm sorry you left Peter because of Judas.





[/quote]
 
Revelation 17 has several phrases, taken together - it's not just the 7 hills of Rome, but the fortune spent on gold, silver, precious stones, costly woods, incense & the bodies & souls of men - that lost fortune is what the merchants of Earth mourn as they see the 'Fall of Babylon' in Revelation 18

Craftily setting up Vatican City, centuries after the prophecy was written, was & is a mere smokescreen, as was dropping 'Roman' from the RCC

"Come out from among them, so you will not share their punishment"

Must go
 
Rome was never the center of trade described in Revelation 18

Riches were BROUGHT to Rome, they weren't traded there.

Of course, the way the internet is used to buy and sell, and the way for-profit 'religious' sites buy and sell, it could be argued the 'internet church' is part of Mystery Babylon.
 

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