Is natural selection the solution to evolution?

[Milk-Drops]

And without the first there is no second.

Even assuming that life started, evolution has not explained or demonstrated how new genetic information arises.

Because that's genetics, not population mechanics. Also yes,
mutations are understood in modern genetics. I had to take a class on it in college.

Mutations are whenever there is a change in the sequence within genes. This can result from copy errors, duplications, deletions, etc.

This isn't the 1800s anymore. There is a vast amount of research available and used in biology today. Most of agriculture, conservation, and other Ecco sciences use the research of both genetics and evolution.

 

[kathydixon]

It's possible, but I think we are far away with the ability.

I believe it is +/- 50 years away.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. Evolution happens. The creation myth in Genesis is did not happen. The Bible is quite wrong on this one. Get used to it, and maybe we can make some progress. It may, for instance, be worth discussing the nature of the 'Fall' in a post-Darwin world.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Who Me]

Mutations are whenever there is a change in the sequence within genes. This can result from copy errors, duplications, deletions, etc.

Please answer the question.
How does new genetic information arise?



Yes mutations are well understood and have shown that they Do Not cause new information to arise, anymore that shooting a .22 rifle at a copy of Ware and Peace will transform it into a medical text book.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Please answer the question.
How does new genetic information arise?

I did. When genetic information is copied for reproduction there can be various changes suc as duplication, deletion, or changes 8n the sequences where one or more of the proteins could be replaced by one of the other 4 proteins. This changes the sequence in a gene and can effect development
This is literally freshmen level biology.

Yes mutations are well understood and have shown that they Do Not cause new information to arise,

Ok, so it seems you are using a vague term (information) and don't understand basic genetics. This is a problem many Christian based creationists have when talking about the theory of evolution and genetics.

Genes are a sequence of proteins. The proteins would effectively be what you are calling information because the sequence is what tells your cells what to do. Any change in the sequence can change the orders.

anymore that shooting a .22 rifle at a copy of Ware and Peace will transform it into a medical text book.

Yeah that's a fundamental misunderstanding of how genetics works. No amount of mutation will change a singular organism into another already existing organism. What the mutations do is diversify the lineage.


For example, human have the genetic history that shows us diverging from old world monkies, apes, great apes, and other hominids. We didn't transform from say a chimp to a human. Our lineage diverged off.

It's like how your cousin could never give birth to your brother. Yet you are still related by lineage.

 

[2ndRateMind]

How does new genetic information arise? As genes replicate, they sometimes make copying errors. That is one way. Or they are affected by radiation. That is another way. If the mutant survives and thrives, it becomes part of the species gene pool, and persists. If it doesn't, it is eradicated from the gene pool. It really isn't that difficult to understand, unless, of course, it runs counter to preconceived 'religious' bias.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[kathydixon]

Hmmm. Evolution happens. The creation myth in Genesis is did not happen. The Bible is quite wrong on this one.

Before reading the following, please keep in mind that these words were written to a population of people who believed the earth was flat.
Genesis was first put to print in 1611BC, that was 3,632 years ago.

Now put yourself in that time frame. A time before the oceans and the American continent had been discovered. Does the information stated below seem a bit out of place for that time frame--?

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In the beginning, earth was formless and empty of life​

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. From sunrise to sunset
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. NOTE, God did not give us animals to eat. This was not part of God's plan.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV

The timeline above has been scientifically proven to be true, life did “evolve” as stated. And this evolving process was put to print in 1611 BC or 3,632 years ago. Columbus sailed the ocean blue 529 years ago.

It is clear to me that the authors of Geneses had some help, and it wasn’t from some bird tweeting to them from some windowsill.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Before reading the following, please keep in mind that these words were written to a population of people who believed the earth was flat.
Genesis was first put to print in 1611BC, that was 3,632 years ago.

Now put yourself in that time frame. A time before the oceans and the American continent had been discovered. Does the information stated below seem a bit out of place for that time frame--?

The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In the beginning, earth was formless and empty of life​

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. From sunrise to sunset
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. NOTE, God did not give us animals to eat. This was not part of God's plan.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV

The timeline above has been scientifically proven to be true, life did “evolve” as stated. And this evolving process was put to print in 1611 BC or 3,632 years ago. Columbus sailed the ocean blue 529 years ago.

It is clear to me that the authors of Geneses had some help, and it wasn’t from some bird tweeting to them from some windowsill.

I no problem with what people believe, but the Genesis account has not be scientificly proven. Birds didn't come about for several million years after plants and animals split off from the sea dwelling organisms. Birds are descendants of theropod dinosaurs and mamals decended from sinapsids.

Also the earth did not have Water in the beginning. Water formed well after the planet and sun formed.

 

[Who Me]

No amount of mutation will change a singular organism into another already existing organism.

Thank you for your confirmation that evolution does not happen.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Thank you for your confirmation that evolution does not happen.

No where in all of evolutionary biology has there been a statement that one organism changes into another already existing organism. It's always a bunch off of a lineage.

You demonstrating why I Lay's explain young earth creationism as a pile of dishonest tactics and lies.

 

[Who Me]

No where in all of evolutionary biology has there been a statement that one organism changes into another already existing organism. It's always a bunch off of a lineage.

You demonstrating why I Lay's explain young earth creationism as a pile of dishonest tactics and lies.

Thank you for your honest response.

You claim that evolution happens.
When challenged about your own quote resort to insults.

I'm not talking about dogs changing into dogs or birds into birds etc etc, although these are used as examples of evolution, but about existing genetic information being changed, amended so that the offspring of a pair are genetically different from there parents.
You have not provided a means by which this happens.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Thank you for your honest response.

Better than your dishonest one.

You claim that evolution happens.

Yep, and you haven't explained why.

When challenged about your own quote resort to insults.

No, I explained the processes in several posts, which you ignored. I call you dishonest because you are not engaging with anything I'm saying.

I'm not talking about dogs changing into dogs or birds into birds etc etc, although these are used as examples of evolution,

Yep, it's the same mechanics. The issue is that you are not aware of how the theories are actually applied and studied. You don't understand what I mean by lineage. All cats, dogs, bears, weasels, etc all diverged off of a singular ancestral line. Dog breeds can be traced back to wolves, to the canid line, to the line of sinapsids, to the lines of mamals. This takes more education than the average person has because it's not necessarily useful to the average person to know this. If most pastors that want to talk about Evolution would acknowledge this, it would be nice.

but about existing genetic information being changed,

Yep, and I explained that, which you ignored.

amended so that the offspring of a pair are genetically different from there parents.

Then you definately don't understand evolution, because evolution doesn't happen in a single generation. It happens in populations that become geneticly issolated through various selection pressures. Through several generations as mutations arise throuhg copy, duplication, deletion, replacement, etc. And differentiate from other populations.

That's why the animal k8ngdoms are represented as a tree.

You have not provided a means by which this happens.

Yes, I did. What out of what I said do you want more explanation on?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Please answer the question.
How does new genetic information arise?

Mutations are information. Mutations arise when DNA is replicated for reproduction.

Yes mutations are well understood and have shown that they Do Not cause new information to arise,

Then you need to biologically define what you mean by information. Genetics doesn't track "information". Genetics tracts mutations and genes and where they originate.

Evolution doesn't track a variable called "information", it tracks population mechanics over time.

An analogy that works better would be, we start with war and peace

anymore that shooting a .22 rifle at a copy of Ware and Peace will transform it into a medical text book.

Considering that would be more akin to hunting animals, and not reproduction, I would agree.


An analogy that works better would be we start with war and peace. It is copied and every so often there is a mistake. Then copies of the book are made that have that change. Some of those will have a small change.


After this process is repeated so many times you could line up the books and you could trace the origins of each change.

That's what evolution is.

 

[Barbarian]

Is natural selection the solution to evolution?

Actually, it's an agency of evolution. Evolution is merely a change in allele frequencies in a population over time. Which we constantly see happening.

This theory is simple and easy to accept and even taught in our public schools and yet I believe it is flawed.
The idea that humans evolved from monkeys to humans falls on it’s face when these very same monkeys are still swinging from the trees today.

Two rather obvious errors there.
First, humans didn't evolve from monkeys; they evolved from other apes. Monkeys are far too evolved in their own way to have given rise to humans.

Second, monkeys are well-adapted to a particular environment and so long as we don't mung it up by foresting or other intervention, they do very well. There's not selective pressure to make them evolve toward our adaptations. On the other hand, the reduction in forests a few million years ago, and the spreading grasslands were a challenge for forest apes. Some of them, judging by fossil transitionals and genetic data, found ways to adapt to the new environments and became bipedal, learned to make tools and pass on knowledge.

One of those groups led to us.

To understand the above I had to accept the idea that such a structure developed from a planet that was nothing more that a large ball of molten rock that cooled down leaving a thin shell that is referred to as earth’s crust. From this crust DNA evolved. I find this hard to believe. Making it even harder to believe is the fact that DNA is just a small component from a much more complex structure called chromosomes.

Lack of faith. My God is quite capable of making a universe that will bring forth life as He intended. Creationists are uncomfortable with a God that powerful and wise.

 

[Barbarian]

Even assuming that life started, evolution has not explained or demonstrated how new genetic information arises.

It's easy for anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of math to comprehend.

Claude Shannon, when he developed the theory of information, first applied it to biology. And it's pretty simple. You see, the information in a message (some kind of coding) is merely a measure of one's uncertainty about what's in it before decoding it. If you get an email, and you already know precisely what's in it, the information in that email is zero. On the other hand, if you don't know what's in it, it does have information for you.

So let's look at a simple case. Suppose that in a population, there are two alleles for a particular gene, each with a frequency of 0.5. Half of all members have one allele, and half have the other. (an allele is a particular version of a gene)

The information for that gene is then:

Where x is the frequency of each allele. So in the above case information is roughly 3.0. You get this by multiplying the frequency of each allele by the log of the frequency of each allele, and then adding them all up.

Now suppose there's a new mutation, which eventually results in each of three alleles having a frequency of 0.333... (one-third).

Now, the information for that gene is about 0.48. So, as you see, new mutations are the most common way for information to increase in a population of organisms. You might be skeptical about Shannon's theory. But the same theory is used by NASA to determine how to get very accurate information from spacecraft millions of kilometers away, using very weakly-powered transmitters. So we know it works.

I also pointed out that “natural selection” can not account for the complexity of the diverse creatures on this planet.

It requires mutation and natural selection. That was Darwin's great discovery.