[_ Old Earth _] Is physical life possible without physical death

[Late_Cretaceous]

This relates to the whole "no death before the fall" argument.

How can physical life exist without death?

I am assuming that organisms still reproduce in this scenario, however.

If nothing ever died, but everything reproduced the mass of all the organisms on Earth would very soon outweigh the Earth itself. Of course, that is impossible.

How do YEC's propose that no death occured before the fall?

 

[Khristeeanos]

This relates to the whole "no death before the fall" argument.

How can physical life exist without death?

I am assuming that organisms still reproduce in this scenario, however.

If nothing ever died, but everything reproduced the mass of all the organisms on Earth would very soon outweigh the Earth itself. Of course, that is impossible.

How do YEC's propose that no death occured before the fall?

The Bible is more important than anything else for forming doctrine as we read in 2 Timothy 3.

Here is what the Bible says:

• 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I don't know how much more clear it needs to be said. It clearly states that Adam was the first man and that there was no death before Adam's sin.

• 1 Corinthians 15:39-41
  All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

This is also so clear as to be without explination.

Mankind is special and completely different than any animal. There was no humans before Adam and there was no death before his sin.

You really should hold the Scriptures with the first and final authority like Jesus did.

 

[dad]

....

 

[dad]

This relates to the whole "no death before the fall" argument.

How can physical life exist without death?

By also including the spiritual. Alone, it never could.

[quote:7da8d]I am assuming that organisms still reproduce in this scenario, however.

If nothing ever died, but everything reproduced the mass of all the organisms on Earth would very soon outweigh the Earth itself. Of course, that is impossible.

How do YEC's propose that no death occured before the fall?

[/quote:7da8d]
God made a big universe to expand to!

 

[ArtGuy]

Here is what the Bible says:

• 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I don't know how much more clear it needs to be said. It clearly states that Adam was the first man and that there was no death before Adam's sin.

I'm going to assume that you don't believe the "resurrection" that this passage refers to means that men are literally going to rise out of their graves as maggot-filled corpses and begin roaming the earth. Rather, it refers to the spiritual ascension to heaven that men will realize as a result of their salvation. Do you agree?

If the resurrection is of a spiritual nature, then, why is it inconceivable that the death was also of a spiritual nature? Especially when the reference to it exists in the same passage as the obviously-spiritual resurrection?

Perhaps this is obvious to you, but it's not to me, and I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Artguy,

I'm going to assume that you don't believe the "resurrection" that this passage refers to means that men are literally going to rise out of their graves as maggot-filled corpses and begin roaming the earth

.

That is a great way to put it. A short post that says a great deal.

Good on you,

noblej6

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

We were always taught in school that the death God spoke of to Adam was a spiritual death, not a physical one. Especially since Adam did not physically die "that very day" as God had stated.

Besides, since Adam is a mythological character, and was not an actual person - death in that case is an eternal spiritual one.

 

[dad]

We were always taught in school that the death God spoke of to Adam was a spiritual death, not a physical one. Especially since Adam did not physically die "that very day" as God had stated.

Besides, since Adam is a mythological character, and was not an actual person - death in that case is an eternal spiritual one.

Adam was a real person, he still is. He lives in heaven. Adam did begin to die physically that moment they ate the fruit. God didn't mean that he would die on the spot. The point was he lost his eternal life he could have had. Man also ate the knowledge of evil that day, resulting in sin entering the world. This seperated man from God, because in God is no evil at all. Man not only was dying, but under sin, and evil. The seperation from God here I think, even after death of the body, was death in the spiritual as well. That is why He had to promise a saviour, which He sent. We can now live forever again, and live happily ever after. We can also still chose to go away from Him, and die, not accepting His gift and continue to live under sin, dying that way, in a spiritual death as well. Just continuing to exist under sin after death is not life. It is death, and despair, and hopelessness, an suffering. No need for all that any more. Jesus saves.

 

[Drew]

This is a repost of something I posted a few months back.....

My understanding is that some Christians assert that one of the reasons that evolution contradicts the Scriptures is that the Scriptures clearly state that death did not exist before the fall. Now we have to be clear at this point. I understand that the proponent of such a position is claiming that no death of any kind at all occurred before the fall (no living matter of any kind experienced death). In fact, the claim that nothing at all died before the fall is key to this aspect of the anti-evolution argument, since this allows the anti-evolution advocate to rule out a process of natural selection leading to the appearance of man.

My questions (for the present) are two:

1. What did Adam and Eve eat prior to the fall and how can such eating not necessarily involve the death of either vegetable or animal organisms?

2. How do you reconcile this "no death before the fall" view with the contents of Genesis 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundâ€â€everything that has the breath of life in itâ€â€I give every green plant for food."

 

[Drew]

I'm going to assume that you don't believe the "resurrection" that this passage refers to means that men are literally going to rise out of their graves as maggot-filled corpses and begin roaming the earth. Rather, it refers to the spiritual ascension to heaven that men will realize as a result of their salvation. Do you agree?

Hello ArtGuy:

Strange as this may seem, I believe that the dead will indeed be resurrected physically to stand before God, although I think the maggots, etc. will be cleaned up.

I have always been uncomfortable about this division of human beings into a physical part and an immaterial (spiritual) part. I maintain that the scriptures don't really teach this, although I will not try to make that case here.

Just thought I would throw this out....no intent to derail

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I have actually heard creationists claim that eating plants does not kill them.

Carrots beg to differ (or so rumor has it).

 

[ArtGuy]

I have actually heard creationists claim that eating plants does not kill them.

Carrots beg to differ (or so rumor has it).

It depends on the plant. If I pluck an apple from a tree, it doesn't kill the tree. The tree will shed the fruit on its own, anyway. Digging up a carrot - yeah, that kills it.

You can either assume that God meant us to only eat fruits and nuts (which would make for a pretty lousy set of culinary options, and wouldn't sustain us very healthily), or that He wasn't too keen on including plants in his No Death decree. I don't think either position is very well supported.

Though I wonder, given such an adherence to the No Death bit, why would we even bother eating at all? Clearly a lack of sustenance couldn't harm us, since we couldn't die. So eating would just be for fun. If that's the case, why even bother? Why include in humans and animals a means of drawing sustenance from plants when eating is completely unnecessary?

 

[dad]

I'm going to assume that you don't believe the "resurrection" that this passage refers to means that men are literally going to rise out of their graves as maggot-filled corpses and begin roaming the earth. Rather, it refers to the spiritual ascension to heaven that men will realize as a result of their salvation. Do you agree?

Hello ArtGuy:

Strange as this may seem, I believe that the dead will indeed be resurrected physically to stand before God, although I think the maggots, etc. will be cleaned up.

I have always been uncomfortable about this division of human beings into a physical part and an immaterial (spiritual) part. I maintain that the scriptures don't really teach this, although I will not try to make that case here.

Just thought I would throw this out....no intent to derail

Even in Jesus' day many dead were raised and appeared to many. It says we shall be 'changed'. So, it will not be the same body that died as it was, but different, and changed, incorruptible. Even if our body was destroyed, I'm sure He can use one molecule, or one hair that fell somewhere, etc, and raise it up! Why bother, some may ask? Why not just be a spirit only? Well, Jesus had His physical body raised, there must be a reason. I think it is not really complete with just the spirit, and heaven is both, physical and spiritual together, complete and eternal.

 

[ArtGuy]

Also, Drew, thanks for giving your interpretation of the scripture. I disagree, but such disagreement is usually the basis for interesting debate.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Dad, do you realize that the molecules that make up your body very likely made up somebody else's body in centuries past.

Every day we shed wastes from our bodies into the sewers and that matter gets recycled into the biosphere. The wastes from the sewers in many countries are used to fertilize crops. Even in North America, this material is often used for spreading on hay crops. Cows eat the hay, we eat the cows. See what I mean.

Our bodies are 70% water by weight. All of that water gets recycled through the environment over and over again.



You also mentioned that the universe is always expanding. The universe is also primarily a vacuum. Kind of hard for life to exist in a vacuum. The Earth is limited in size and mass. Without the recycling of matter that is incurred in the life and death cycle, life would be impossible.

 

[dad]

Dad, do you realize that the molecules that make up your body very likely made up somebody else's body in centuries past.

Every day we shed wastes from our bodies into the sewers and that matter gets recycled into the biosphere. The wastes from the sewers in many countries are used to fertilize crops. Even in North America, this material is often used for spreading on hay crops. Cows eat the hay, we eat the cows. See what I mean.

Our bodies are 70% water by weight. All of that water gets recycled through the environment over and over again.

He knows just the right ones to use! Like dna, it is pretty unique. Maybe more than just one molecule, OK. But what if one job our guardian angel had was taking a hair, or some sample, if God knew our bodies would oone day be destroyed, burned, etc? Pretty simple. I'm sure He has it under perfect control. After all, not one hair falls from our head but that He knows about it! Ever wonder why?




You also mentioned that the universe is always expanding. The universe is also primarily a vacuum. Kind of hard for life to exist in a vacuum. The Earth is limited in size and mass. Without the recycling of matter that is incurred in the life and death cycle, life would be impossible.[/quote]

 

[dad]

Dad, do you realize that the molecules that make up your body very likely made up somebody else's body in centuries past.

Every day we shed wastes from our bodies into the sewers and that matter gets recycled into the biosphere. The wastes from the sewers in many countries are used to fertilize crops. Even in North America, this material is often used for spreading on hay crops. Cows eat the hay, we eat the cows. See what I mean.

Our bodies are 70% water by weight. All of that water gets recycled through the environment over and over again.

He knows just the right ones to use! Like dna, it is pretty unique. Maybe more than just one molecule, OK. But what if one job our guardian angel had was taking a hair, or some sample, if God knew our bodies would oone day be destroyed, burned, etc? Pretty simple. I'm sure He has it under perfect control. After all, not one hair falls from our head but that He knows about it! Ever wonder why?

You also mentioned that the universe is always expanding.

I did? I think they may be right, maybe it is, true. But I am not sure, so much depends on interpretaion of redshift, etc.

The universe is also primarily a vacuum. Kind of hard for life to exist in a vacuum. The Earth is limited in size and mass. Without the recycling of matter that is incurred in the life and death cycle, life would be impossible.

The universe now we see will pass away, and the new one that appears will not be the same at all. Neither will we, we will be immortal, indestructible. Populating the universe will be a cake walk.

 

[ArtGuy]

But what if one job our guardian angel had was taking a hair, or some sample, if God knew our bodies would oone day be destroyed, burned, etc? Pretty simple. I'm sure He has it under perfect control. After all, not one hair falls from our head but that He knows about it! Ever wonder why?

Why on Earth would God need to go to such lengths to resurrect us? He's God. He could snap his fingers and cause every being who's ever existed to reappear instantly.

Teenybopper fangirls save locks of hair. I don't think God does.

 

[dad]

But what if one job our guardian angel had was taking a hair, or some sample, if God knew our bodies would oone day be destroyed, burned, etc? Pretty simple. I'm sure He has it under perfect control. After all, not one hair falls from our head but that He knows about it! Ever wonder why?

Why on Earth would God need to go to such lengths to resurrect us? He's God. He could snap his fingers and cause every being who's ever existed to reappear instantly.

Teenybopper fangirls save locks of hair. I don't think God does.

My guess is that He wants the physical and spiritual to be complete. Jesus had His body raised. Same wounds and all. Yet it had spiritual qualities, appearing and disappearing, coming through walls into a locked room, flying up in the air, etc. Yet He ate food, He was no ghost. It is important, that is why we have the rapture. Some people had their bodies burned, or nuked, or drowned in the ocean, or cremated, etc. Do you think He can't or won't raise them? Of course He will. It is amazing.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Dad,

The universe now we see will pass away, and the new one that appears will not be the same at all. Neither will we, we will be immortal, indestructible. Populating the universe will be a cake walk.

I would think this one thru. If population is allowed to run free without physical death this planet wouldn't provisde habitat for half of the 'life' on it in a very short period of time.

For instance...if you put two pigmy shrews in some indoor football areana, provided food and water and eliminated death from that population, they would bust thru the roof in probably less that a hundred years. Think about it.

Jesus' body was gone from the tomb. However, Jesus was God, the rest of us aren't. He was both visible and invisible...we aren't.

Heaven is a place not visible to mortal man. Heaven is the place of eternity. Things eternal are not visible. 2 Cor 4:18.

The term 'spiritual body' in 1 Cor 15 does not mean a very religious body , it means spirit, unseen, eternal, after the earthly and natural-physical heavenly body.

noblej6