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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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: Being that Satan isn't "omnipresent", I would expect that he doesn't even know who I am, what with billions of people on the face of the planet.
Also, I (and anyone else) doesn't need help from any "supernatural being" to fall. We all have our own desires, lusts, and mental deficiencies that account for most, if not all, of the "evil actions" we see in society. I think we should place the blame where it really lies, rather than bringing in "supernatural evil beings" as some sort of catalyst.
Still, God knew his creation, Satan, would be who he was "from the beginning", so Satan really IS doing God's will, and cannot really be labeled as "evil" since he IS doing God's will.
Also, I (and anyone else) doesn't need help from any "supernatural being" to fall. We all have our own desires, lusts, and mental deficiencies that account for most, if not all, of the "evil actions" we see in society. I think we should place the blame where it really lies, rather than bringing in "supernatural evil beings" as some sort of catalyst.
Still, God knew his creation, Satan, would be who he was "from the beginning", so Satan really IS doing God's will, and cannot really be labeled as "evil" since he IS doing God's will.
cyberjosh
Member
Ever heard of minions.... any one? ;)
Seriously though, Satan himself probably orchestrates most of it while he has legions of demons to do his handiwork. But of course when powerful figures need to be dealt with (like Jesus) Satan probably attends himself (also the OT passages about Satan are addressed to Kings - whom he probably manipulated or possessed). But I really don't like speculating, pretending I know the heirarchy and chain-of-command of demonic legions. At any rate demons are more common tempters (and torturers - via demon possession - if it goes that far) of humans than Lucifer himself coming to tempt you.
Who said help? Satan doesn't mindlessly entice us to sin (which we would do anyway) but I assure you that he has a strategy. I believe that some sins that are common can still leave the person open to God when they hear of the forgiveness offered them while some more serious sins that eventually lead to hardening of the heart lead one deliberately down a path of destruction and malevolence with God. The latter would be Satan's goal, to tempt you to commit serious sins that will only drive you further from God. Satan knows He's not going to win, the idea is to bring everyone else down with him.
But yes as I've said we have an in-born propensity to sin from our flesh, but Satan malevolently tries to manipulate that in such a way as to make us irredeemable because of it.
It's God's will that none should perish, as the Bible says, yet some inevitably will. So then is God the Calvinist God who ordains and makes happen every decision of His creatures, or do they have freewill to resist his will?
"But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, To walk in their own devices." (Psalm 81:11-12)
"How often they provoked Him in the wilderness, And grieved Him in the desert! Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel." (Psalm 78:40-41)
We can resist God's will to a degree and even limit what he wants to do in our life, and if anyone goes too far he will just give them over to their own desires (as with Satan) to do what they want and walk down the road of destruction.
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
.
I don't get this thread
I don't get this thread
K
kenan
Guest
Catholic Crusader said:
Jews don't believe in the devil, they believe that Satan is an angel who's job is to tempt people and see if they follow him or Yahweh
B
BobRyan
Guest
kenan said:
I think Orthodox Jews say he is a good angel with a dirty job.
But if we look to scripture we find that he is in fact evil -- a liar and the father of lies.
A murderer from the beginning of life on this planet.
in Christ,
Bob
K
kenan
Guest
BobRyan said:
I know its a week late, but welcome to the site
also, any scriptural evidence would be useful for your statement
B
BobRyan
Guest
Thank you for the kind welcome -- here are the texts -
John 8:44
" You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Rev 12
7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war,
8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
He is the "serpent of old" (the snake in the garden of eden)
He is the one who fights with the loyal angels.
He is a murderer and liar.
Peter says he is our enemy and goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
In Jude Michael says to Satan "the Lord rebuke you ".
none of this comes out to "God's Loyal angel that has a dirty job to do".
in Christ,
Bob
John 8:44
" You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Rev 12
7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war,
8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
He is the "serpent of old" (the snake in the garden of eden)
He is the one who fights with the loyal angels.
He is a murderer and liar.
Peter says he is our enemy and goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
In Jude Michael says to Satan "the Lord rebuke you ".
none of this comes out to "God's Loyal angel that has a dirty job to do".
in Christ,
Bob
K
kenan
Guest
^^ thats a good post
OK i think that pretty much answers my question
How about is Satan being evil part of Yahweh's 'plan' for the universe, IE was Satan meant to become evil and wage war against Him
OK i think that pretty much answers my question
How about is Satan being evil part of Yahweh's 'plan' for the universe, IE was Satan meant to become evil and wage war against Him
B
BobRyan
Guest
According to the bible - Satan was created sinless - perfect flawless and his name was "Lucifer" star of the morning.
He was created with free will as were Adam and Eve.
He chose to fall - and took 1/3 of the loyal angels with him -- he also tempted Adam and Eve (First Eve and then Adam through Eve) and thus we have the of the human race from sinless perfect harmony with God -- to beings who had a sinful nature.
God is all-knowing so He knew what choices the various free will beings He created would make -- yet He made them ALL anyway. The Loyal 2/3's of the angels AS WELL as those who would eventually join Lucifer in rebellion.
God's plan is to get everything back on track -- rebellion ended and the free-will based universe back in harmony with it's Creator.
That happens with imperical evidence (see Job 1 and Job 2) where God's ways are tested and "seen" to be true. So basically we have about 6000 years of sin and suffering for this World.
His solution also involves a real Rev 20 Lake of Fire "Second Death" for all the wicked including Satan and his angels.
in Christ,
Bob
He was created with free will as were Adam and Eve.
He chose to fall - and took 1/3 of the loyal angels with him -- he also tempted Adam and Eve (First Eve and then Adam through Eve) and thus we have the of the human race from sinless perfect harmony with God -- to beings who had a sinful nature.
God is all-knowing so He knew what choices the various free will beings He created would make -- yet He made them ALL anyway. The Loyal 2/3's of the angels AS WELL as those who would eventually join Lucifer in rebellion.
God's plan is to get everything back on track -- rebellion ended and the free-will based universe back in harmony with it's Creator.
That happens with imperical evidence (see Job 1 and Job 2) where God's ways are tested and "seen" to be true. So basically we have about 6000 years of sin and suffering for this World.
His solution also involves a real Rev 20 Lake of Fire "Second Death" for all the wicked including Satan and his angels.
in Christ,
Bob
K
kenan
Guest
johnmuise said:
I got my answer and this thread is dead. Also, your answer is stupid.
anasazi avatar
Member
Hi there,
To understand whether Satan is evil or not, or whether God created him to be evil, we need to look at his beginning.
Firstly, yes angels do have freewill. Without question. A third of the angels chose to follow Lucifer, ergo, freewill. God, I believe, created angels to serve Him and to companionship with. They knew God existed because they saw Him all the time. Man was created to choose to believe, by believing though not seeing, (in the physical).
Lucifer was created to be the high priest of God:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Here we see three things about Satan; 1) He was one of the covering Cherubs on the Ark of testimony, 2) He was also a high priest for God. He had the tabrets in him when he was created for worshipping God, and also was covered with the same stones in him that The Levitical High Priest had on the Breastplate of Judgment, 3) He was in the Garden of Eden, and did evil and was cast from heaven, as is stated in, Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Yes, God knows everything from the beginning of time, to the end of time. He knew Lucifer would sin, and that Christ would take his place at the right hand of the Father. God created man to have fellowship with, and for man to believe by choice having not seen, yet believing. For man to have choice, there has to be good and evil to choose from. This is why Lucifer was created. He was not created to sin, but God, knowing he would sin, created him that we would know good from evil. Lucifer and his angels will go into the Lake of Fire because they chose to rebel against God. That was their sin. They knew they were to serve God, they knew God is supreme, there is none above Him, et they chose to follow Lucifer in rebellion. Man, in the OT believed because they saw, and were saved. They had freewill to chose to believe and obey, or not. But greater is he that believes without seeing;
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
The last question is whether God, knowing that Lucifer would sin, should have created him in the first place? A reasonable question, but the answer is yes. If God did not create Lucifer, then where would Lucifer's freewill be? The same applies to the human race. Our heavenly father knows who will believe and serve, and who will not, but we still need to be here to make that choice. Knowing the end from the beginning doesn't stop the journey from happening.
I hope this helps. Sorry for the length.
Maranatha
To understand whether Satan is evil or not, or whether God created him to be evil, we need to look at his beginning.
Firstly, yes angels do have freewill. Without question. A third of the angels chose to follow Lucifer, ergo, freewill. God, I believe, created angels to serve Him and to companionship with. They knew God existed because they saw Him all the time. Man was created to choose to believe, by believing though not seeing, (in the physical).
Lucifer was created to be the high priest of God:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Here we see three things about Satan; 1) He was one of the covering Cherubs on the Ark of testimony, 2) He was also a high priest for God. He had the tabrets in him when he was created for worshipping God, and also was covered with the same stones in him that The Levitical High Priest had on the Breastplate of Judgment, 3) He was in the Garden of Eden, and did evil and was cast from heaven, as is stated in, Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Yes, God knows everything from the beginning of time, to the end of time. He knew Lucifer would sin, and that Christ would take his place at the right hand of the Father. God created man to have fellowship with, and for man to believe by choice having not seen, yet believing. For man to have choice, there has to be good and evil to choose from. This is why Lucifer was created. He was not created to sin, but God, knowing he would sin, created him that we would know good from evil. Lucifer and his angels will go into the Lake of Fire because they chose to rebel against God. That was their sin. They knew they were to serve God, they knew God is supreme, there is none above Him, et they chose to follow Lucifer in rebellion. Man, in the OT believed because they saw, and were saved. They had freewill to chose to believe and obey, or not. But greater is he that believes without seeing;
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
The last question is whether God, knowing that Lucifer would sin, should have created him in the first place? A reasonable question, but the answer is yes. If God did not create Lucifer, then where would Lucifer's freewill be? The same applies to the human race. Our heavenly father knows who will believe and serve, and who will not, but we still need to be here to make that choice. Knowing the end from the beginning doesn't stop the journey from happening.
I hope this helps. Sorry for the length.
Maranatha