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Is the Law God gave through Moses still in effect today???

  • Thread starter Thread starter lou11
  • Start date Start date
whirlwind said:
As Jesus said....

Matthew 5:17-18Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
All right, let's talk about this passage.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, Torah has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Torah, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€Â.

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Torah do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Torah was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal (building, of course, on the ideas of others – I am no Bible scholar) hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light


What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Torah was retired.

Of course, the argument here is only sketch, but I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Torah will remain in force basically to the end of time.
 
Greetings, whirlwind!

I'm coming out of the closet here. I don't eat unclean foods. I can't join my voice to that of Peter and Ezekiel though and say that I have "never defiled myself" in such a manner because I was raised Catholic. What advantage does not eating unclean give me? Well, I become very sensitive to people. I don't push that aspect of my personal belief onto anybody. It is perfectly acceptable for me to go to my sister's house for Thanksgiving dinner and enjoy the meal. I eat turkey and don't eat ham.

For quite a while in this thread I've been answering the OP topic. Is the law of God in effect? The scriptures that have been under discussion are eminently applicable.
  • Can Jewish Tradition be considered higher authority than the LOGOS of Adonai? [/*:m:1f2fru7s]
  • Can laws about clean and unclean meats be considered to be of greater import than the hearts of the Goyim (Gentiles)?[/*:m:1f2fru7s]
  • Can we think that it is important to obey God?[/*:m:1f2fru7s]

Whirlwind, I don't know you very well - don't know if you are my brother or sister in Christ even (looks like you are a member of the Science forum?) -- but it doesn't matter. I've heard your heart. Within this I've found the Logos of Adonai. This doesn't happen "naturally". But you're not just quoting scripture either - I very much liked the understanding that "C." had in your previous post. You chew the cud. I have agreed with you 1,000% in every single aspect of what you have said. Well, that is, up and until your most recent post.

You said, "does that mean we can, or should, eat pork, shrimp, crab, etc.?"

When you are following your conscience and in your heart you know it is sin, then for you it is sin. Now here is the fulcrum of what the argument is. The place where we all need to balance ourselves, yes? Can we truly teach that goyim must obey the laws of clean and unclean meats? The Holy Spirit specifically addressed this as our brother Follower of Christ has so often pointed to. I agree with this.

Do you?

This is important too because we are now speaking of the meat of the word, yes?

Asked in love,
~Sparrow
 
whirlwind said:
Drew, Mark 7 is not about the foods that defile. No where are clean or unclean FOODS mentioned.
Jesus is clearly referring to foods and their capacity to defile here:

Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?"

How can you say that Jesus is not concerned with the very question of whether foods defile? What would go into the mouth, then into the stomach and then out the other end if not food?

whirlwind said:
[It is the traditions of how one eats food being discussed...with UNWASHEN HANDS, washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables or, to put it another way...."Why walk not Thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread WITH UNWASHEN HANDS?"

It isn't the bread, it isn't the meat it is TRADITIONS OF MAN being discussed. [/b]
You are merely restating a position that my argument demonstrates does not work. I think you should be pointing out the error in my argument, not simply restating your position. Why, if the issue is really the issue of washing with unclean hands, does Jesus say this:

And He was saying, "(T)That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, (U)envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man

Is this about handwashing? Is this about traditions about how one eats food? Clearly not. So the argument that the discussion is only focussed on these things is simply not borne out by the text.
 
Drew said:
whirlwind said:
Where did Paul write...."everything is good to eat?"

From 1 Timothy 4

3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving.

Remember - Paul is criticizing people who abstain from certain foods. Perhaps you can explain to us how this is not effectively a statement by Paul that all foods can be eaten.

No Drew, Paul did NOT write everything was "good to eat," in that verse. He did write that whatever God created to be eaten (to be received) was good. Are all things (swine, shrimp, crabs, etc.) good? Yes. They have a job, and they do a good job of being scavengers but they WERE NOT CREATED TO BE RECEIVED into our bodies.

Paul taught that there were/are those teaching doctrines of devils...especially in the latter times. Of the things he mentioned was that they teach to "to abstain from meats, which God created to be received..." Vegetarians? Or, some type of religious doctrines that forbid meat? Bullinger wrote, "Spiritist teaching is that animal food is unfavourable to the development of mediumistic power." You also have denominations that teach not to eat meats on a certain day (or they used to :-) and that it is necessary to forgo meat on certain days.
 
whirlwind said:
No Drew, Paul did NOT write everything was "good to eat," in that verse

I see no hope of resolving this difference, so I will not pursue any further discussions on the 1 Timothy 4 passage with you. This does not mean I will not respond to other posts on other, perhaps closely related matters.
 
I have hope for us all. It is founded in love and faith. I am also certain that contrary to what we sometimes say, this is true for each who have remained in this discussion. Elsewise why even speak?

Okay - let us turn to the more controversial parts - what COULD have Paul meant in his letter to Timothy?
Is there any scriptural evidence of Paul speaking about the conscience of a weaker brother?

There was a brother who considered that God gave every good thing to Adam (to man) to eat. This was the case before sin - that man was a vegetarian. There is no instance of killing any animal until after sin. This brother had a tender conscience before the Lord and thought that he was serving God by abstaining from meat of all kinds. He ate herbs and fruits and vegetables and plantlife only - only things that had no blood in them.

Did Paul ever address this? Can my most staunch opponent(s) prove the truth of this?

Again, asked in love,
~Sparrrow
 
Many interpret Jesus’ clash with the Pharisees over the matter of food laws (Mark 7 and Matthew 15) as demonstrating that Jesus’ central concern was addition of own man-made laws to the core of Torah. I am convinced that Jesus was doing something much more radical – He was declaring the abolition of the Torah purity laws.

I believe that the strength of my proposal lies in how well it explains why (1) Jesus immediately withdraws from public to explain His teaching (in the Markan account, see verses 17 and ff) and; (2) why the Pharisees ultimately sought Jesus’ death. The view that Jesus is simply critiquing Pharasaic extensions to Torah does not explain these things nearly as well. Granted, if the dispute is really about man-made addition to Torah, there is a sense in which both (1) and (2) appear to be explained: Jesus needs to withdraw from public to explain the parable since the Pharisees are angry at being challenged and, ultimately, they seek His death since they view Him as a challenge to their authority in respect to interpreting Torah.

This line of thinking is, I suggest, the path of least intellectual resistance, and ultimately does not work. First, such an analysis pre-supposes that the Pharisees had a general habit of responding with murderous intent to those who challenged their interpretation of Torah. I suggest that a proper knowledge of history suggests otherwise. While the Pharisees often hotly debated Torah interpretation among themselves, there is no record of them resorting to violence against one another over such matters. There is no record at all of violent clashes between the Shammaites and the Hillelites – two Pharisaical schools of thought that disagreed significantly on how to properly interpret the Torah.

In summary, then, the history suggests that the Pharisees would not respond to debates over Torah interpretation with violent wrath – they were continually engaged in such disputes without seeking the deaths of those with whom they differed. So if Jesus is merely telling the Pharisees that they have gone beyond the intent of Torah with their rules about handwashing, that would hardly explain why Jesus had to withdraw from public (Mark 7:17 and following). Now, if, as I suggest, Jesus is really declaring the end of the Levitical purity laws (“In saying this, Jesus declared all foods ‘clean’â€Â), then we have a credible explanation for why the Pharisees would seek the demise of Jesus - any declaration like that would strike to the very heart of Jewish self-identity (this will be elaborated below).

I can imagine that an objector would appeal to this statement from Jesus to sustain the view that Jesus is indeed concerned with Pharisaical additions to the law:

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding onto the traditions of men.

And, in following verses, we have more of the same – Jesus is indeed critiquing the Pharisees for their man-made additions to Torah. But if, as I have been arguing, this explains neither the need for Jesus to explain himself in private nor the fact that the Pharisees ultimately sought his death, we need to ask if something more fundamental (and more challenging to the Pharisees) is going on here. Of course, any such explanation would need to at least make sense of why Jesus does indeed rebuke the Pharisees for adding to Torah.

I suggest that my proposal succeeds on both counts. First, I suggest that it is self-evident that a declaration of the overturning of the food laws easily explains the move to seek Jesus’ death in a way in which a dispute over the technicalities of interpreting Torah would not. I will expand on this shortly. Second, we can indeed make sense of Jesus’ rebuke of Pharasaical additions to Torah in the context of the view that Jesus is overturning the Levitical food laws. More specifically, we can understand such a rebuke as an expression of Jesus’s view that He, and not the Pharisees has the right to make determinations about the status of the Torah. In short, we err if we see the content of the material in verses 6 to 9 of the Markan version, as Jesus’ main point. Instead, the main point is that Jesus is setting Himself up as the authority on matters related to Torah by challenging the Pharisees on handwashing. He goes on to declare the abolition of the food laws, but does so privately so as to not bring about His own death before the time is right.

Now to fill in the case for why abolition of the purity laws would elicit violent wrath from the Pharisees. Most Christians have a general sense that the Pharisees were “zealous†for Torah. But what are the underpinnings of such zeal? I suggest that the Pharisees saws certain elements of the Torah – in particular, Sabbath, circumcision, food laws, and the Land – as “ethnic boundary markers†that demarcate the Jew from his pagan neighbours. While I will not argue the point in detail here, it should be clear that a central element of Jesus’ program was a re-definition of who the true people of God were. Here, we have a clear case from Jesus that the people of God is not to be simply identified with ethnic Israel:

I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Here we have a clear re-working of the boundary markers of the people of God – and the markers, whatever they turn out to be, are certainly not the ethnic markers provided by Torah such as the food laws – clearly Jesus is implying that Gentiles will be at the great banquet while some Jews will not. The parable of the Good Samaritan makes the same point – the Samaritan is deemed to be a member of God’s family even though he is not Jewish. Note, also, that Paul goes to great lengths to mount same argument – his concept of a “true Israel†as set against “ethnic Israel†(e.g. Romans 9) shows that he, too, sees the boundary marker of the true people of God as both including some Gentiles and excluding some Jews.

Given these other teachings from Jesus (and Paul as well), a declaration of the end of the kosher food laws should not be surprising. Such laws functioned as boundary markers for the people of God. Naturally enough, as the self-appointed guardians of Jewish national identity, the Pharisees would take greate exception to any challenge to the legitimacy of such markers. If Jesus really is re-defining the true people of God, then it makes perfect sense that he would declare the end of the very markers that sustained the old picture where only the Jew has God’s favour.
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Greetings, whirlwind!

I'm coming out of the closet here. I don't eat unclean foods. I can't join my voice to that of Peter and Ezekiel though and say that I have "never defiled myself" in such a manner because I was raised Catholic. What advantage does not eating unclean give me? Well, I become very sensitive to people. I don't push that aspect of my personal belief onto anybody. It is perfectly acceptable for me to go to my sister's house for Thanksgiving dinner and enjoy the meal. I eat turkey and don't eat ham.


I'm from the deep south...born and raised. By that I mean Ribs, Ham, Gumbo, Shrimp, Crabs, cooking with loads of bacon grease to flavor all vegetables was on every table. And....I loved it! A few years ago I suddenly, without thinking about it, gave up those foods and colas. And, it wasn't difficult in that I don't miss them. The difficult part was I, as you, didn't want to make a big deal about it. If served with those foods I would push them aside, much as a child covers their spinach so mom won't see it left on the plate. :lol So, I know exactly what you mean. My husband doesn't yet realize that I don't eat them. It, to me, is a personal choice for health and to follow Him.


For quite a while in this thread I've been answering the OP topic. Is the law of God in effect? The scriptures that have been under discussion are eminently applicable.
  • Can Jewish Tradition be considered higher authority than the LOGOS of Adonai? [/*:m:1r7p9vf7]
  • Can laws about clean and unclean meats be considered to be of greater import than the souls of the Goyim (Gentiles)?[/*:m:1r7p9vf7]
  • Can we think that it is important to obey God?[/*:m:1r7p9vf7]

Whirlwind, I don't know you very well - don't know if you are my brother or sister in Christ even (looks like you are a member of the Science forum?) -- but it doesn't matter. I've heard your heart. Within this I've found the Logos of Adonai. This doesn't happen "naturally". But you're not just quoting scripture either - I very much liked the understanding that "C." had in your previous post. You chew the cud. I have agreed with you 1,000% in every single aspect of what you have said. Well, that is, up and until your most recent post.


I'm not a member of any forum and...I too heard your heart when I read your posts. :yes

You said, "does that mean we can, or should, eat pork, shrimp, crab, etc.?"

When you are following your conscience and in your heart you know it is sin, then for you it is sin. Now here is the fulcrum of what the argument is. The place where we all need to balance ourselves, yes? Can we truly teach that goyim must obey the laws of clean and unclean meats? The Holy Spirit specifically addressed this as our brother Follower of Christ has so often pointed to. I agree with this.

Do you?

This is important too because we are now speaking of the meat of the word, yes?

Asked in love,
~Sparrow

In my heart I feel it is a law that He asks us to follow but it is one for our benefit, not His. It is for our health while in these flesh bodies while the most important aspect is the spiritual. As such, I don't see it as a "go to hell" law and that is why I don't broadcast the necessity to follow it among family and friends.
 
Drew, Greetings in Christ to you!

I've not written to you and in the back of my head this was called "saving the best for last". I am not at all certain that we can convince each other because you seem to be like me, having "proven the truth" and are in obedience to God in this - Prove the truth, hold it fast. I like this and have no problem with people who can hold there own in any argument with me and hope you have that same feeling within you.

Consider that we are both arguing for the TRUTH (albeit we are also arguing for our view). Each of us sees darkly through that mirror.

I'd like to now enter into conversation with you about this. May I? Can we wrestle scripture together? Jacob wrestled the angel of the Lord, yes? It changed his walk.

~Sparrow
 
whirlwind said:
OVERTURNING THE TORAH????? :o :
Yes. If you do not think that the written code of Torah has been "abolished", and assuming that you believe that Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then perhaps you can address this post of mine from yesterday (reproduced)

drew said:
And even though we have not been talking about Paul, the case is clear that Paul sees the written code of Torah as having been abolished, having achieved its purpose:

For (D)Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to (E)everyone who believes

Therefore the Law has become our (AO)tutor to lead us to Christ, so that (AP)we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a (AQ)tutor.

by (AT) abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is (AU) The Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might (AV)make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing (AX)peace
,
 
Sparrowhawke said:
I'd like to now enter into conversation with you about this. May I? Can we wrestle scripture together? Jacob wrestled the angel of the Lord, yes? It changed his walk.
Sure. As I suggest should be clear from my many posts, I am very interested in the matter of the status of the Law.

And by the way, even though I think it is clear that both Paul and Jesus declared an end to the Torah as a written code, there is a sense in which Torah is indeed fulfilled (as per stuff that Paul says at the end of Romans 3).

But that sense in which the Torah has been affirmed certainly does not include the food laws, the Sabbath laws, the festivals etc.

Those things functioned, as Leviticus tells us, to mark the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile. Both Jesus and Paul agree - the time for that distinction has come to an end.

Jesus clearly tells us that many will "sit with Abraham at the great banquet" who are not Jews. And not all Jews will be at the banquet. It would be exceedingly odd for Jesus to re-define membership in the kingdom in such a way that the Jew has no "special status" and yet endorse the very practices - food laws for example, which were instituted to set the Jew apart as distinct from the Gentile.
 
Okay thank you. I'm gonna be sure that I understand the point of your own post before any attempt is made to "debunk" it. Yes?

Basically you have said that there were two different schools of thought amongst the "houses" of scholars that held sway during the time of Jesus. You said (correctly) that although they didn't agree with each other they didn't come to blows about it, right?

You can see no reason why such men could seek to murder the Christ over a simple disagreement such as washing hands, yes?

Do I have that right so far? :yes
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Basically you have said that there were two different schools of thought amongst the "houses" of scholars that held sway during the time of Jesus. You said (correctly) that although they didn't agree with each other they didn't come to blows about it, right?

You can see no reason why such men could seek to murder the Christ over a simple disagreement such as washing hands, yes?

Do I have that right so far? :yes
Yes. Disagreements over proper interpretation of Torah were common and, in general, this did not lead to violence among those who disagree. Of course, I trust you realize that I am making a generalization. You may well find some specific counter-example but I stand by the generalization.
 
Okay good then. I will prepare a response -- I hand type things and don't cut-n-paste them. I'm also long winded but I will stick to the subject. Your patience is needed a bit. By the way, did you take up my challenge to find the scripture about the "weaker brother" whom I would like to name "Herb" ?? :lol

I'll be back in a bit - will review any posts (or edits) you'd like to make in the meantime and then post my reply. Gonna write in MSWord and then cut / paste / format.

Thanks for this also. I believe that we are doing the exact thing that the church did as they considered this very same subject in Acts. I'd ask that saints who are reading this cover us with prayer that each could be anointed by the Holy Spirit to bring the truth forward. :amen

I'll also remain here to listen to anything you might say before I take your leave to depart for a bit, yes?

~Sparrow
 
There really isnt any point in arguing with some of you people, is there ?
You SAY it isnt about food but the TEXT shows VERY CLEARLY that it IS about food. :crazy
You SAY that the law is still in effect but the TEXT shows VERY CLEARLY that it ISNT :crazy

you who want to be under law must follow the WHOLE LAW....EVERY word of it.
When you fail in ONE POINT of the law you are guilty of the WHOLE.



theres nothing left to say but what has already BEEN said...


[Mark 7] isn't about food being clean or unclean it
Sorry but it IS about food. You seem to think it has to be about one or the other...it doesnt.
The CONTEXT is VERY clearly ABOUT taking FOODS into our bodies and their not defiling us.
You folks can play any semantics game you want but facts are facts :)
In [Acts 21] the subject is circumcision and traditions (customs),....
Acts 15 (FIFTEEN) is about PHARISAICAL men demanding that we follow the Mosaic Law....did you miss that part somehow ?
But some of those from the sect of the Pharisees rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
When THAT topic was being discuss it was decided that we gentiles are NOT to be bothered with the Mosaic Code beyond those 4 items.
And the apostles and elders gathered together to see about this matter.
And after much dispute, Peter arose and said to them: "Men, brothers, you know that from early days God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, the knower of hearts, bore witness to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as also He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

....Therefore I judge that we must not cause trouble for those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles; but that we write to them to abstain from
-things polluted by idols,
-and from sexual immorality,
-from things strangled,
-and from blood.
(Acts 15:1-20 EMTV)

So much for any valid argument for those who want to remain under law.... :crazy
That was a lie for Paul didn't teach to "forsake Moses."
Sorry but that DOESNT fit the actual EVIDENCE....
If you will READ this you will see very clearly that Paul HAD TO HAVE BEEN laying aside the law of Moses in order to be ACCUSED of doing so...
What then? It is necessary for an assembly to come together; for they will hear that you have come. Therefore do this, which we say to you: There are four men with us who have taken a vow upon themselves. Take them and purify yourself with them, and pay for them that they may have their head shaved, and that all may know that those things of which they have been informed about you are nothing, but that you are agreeing with and keeping the law yourself.

But concerning the Gentiles having believed, we wrote, having judged that they should keep no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, and from anything strangled, and from fornication."

Then Paul, having taken the men, on the next day having been purified with them, entered into the temple, thus giving notice to the completion of the days of the purification, until the time when the offering was offered in behalf of each one of them.

Now when the seven days were about to be completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, were stirring up all the crowd and put their hands on him, crying out, "Men, Israelites, help! This is the man who is teaching all people everywhere against the people and the Law and this place; and furthermore he has brought Greeks into the temple and has made common this holy place." For they had seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.
(Acts 21:22-29 EMTV)
VERY plainly there it is shown that Paul HAD to have been teaching in such a way that the JEWS believed him to be teaching AGAINST the Mosaic law that they supposedly cherished so much....WHY else would he even have to be TOLD to purify himself ? *IF* he was observing the law this 'pharisee of pharisees' would KNOW to do it all by his little self. :nono
 
In [Mark 7:1-23] the subject is being defiled...not by bread or meat but by how those foods were eaten, "that is to say, with unwashen hands, they found fault."

Mark 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

That is the subject. :yes
SORRY friend but the TEXT speaks about things PUT INTO THE BODY and how they do NOT defile it.
Unless its talking about eating dirt it IS ABOUT FOODS !
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
(Mark 7:15 KJV)


Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Its astounding how far you will go to reject the facts....Its just stubborn ignorance to keep claiming that this ISNT talking about FOODS...
WHAT ELSE ENTERS a man EXCEPT FOOD ?????
 
whirlwind said:
No Drew, Paul did NOT write everything was "good to eat," in that verse.

Sure he did and your rejection of the facts DOESNT negate them.
1000 more rounds of this nonsense ISNT going to change what Gods word SAYS, Im afraid....nor is your intentional misrepresentation of what IS actually said.
He did write that whatever God created to be eaten (to be received) was good. Are all things (swine, shrimp, crabs, etc.) good? Yes. They have a job, and they do a good job of being scavengers but they WERE NOT CREATED TO BE RECEIVED into our bodies.
Sorry but UNDER THE LAW man was not supposed to eat that stuff.
NOW, under grace we ARE permitted to.
 
*soft voice*

FoC? are you praying or are you yelling now? I agree with you and thought we had this settled between us, please ask for my patience to remain, my peace that was given to me to remain as I depart this thread for a moment.

Is it sin to be a vegetarian? I am not putting myself "under the law" and agree that if I was I would be responsible for keeping the whole law. I don't for instance follow the ordinance regarding offering the sacrifice of blood and bulls. My Christ has become this for me. He is the High Priest for me and for you.

Again, is it sin to be a vegetarian? I'm not telling you that you must be a vegetarian, but only asking if it is sin to be one.

Can you at least give me this much? I'm looking forward to writing my response to Drew and have it on my heart to do so but I cannot do this alone. I need prayer, really do. In my stubborn heart there is a place where I'm still a kid - and want to stomp my foot and say, "I'm not leaving until you agree" - but that would be too childish for this grampa to follow through with. My sons are coming over today and so is my grandson, so if I want to get this done I'd neet to start on it.

Tell me, "Go with God in this, brother."

~Sparrow

lol - my apartment fire alarm just went off.... sheesh!
 
whirlwind said:
Consider....James speaking....[Acts 15:18-20] "Wherefore MY SENTENCE IS, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Dude, now you seem to be PURPOSEFULLY trying to pervert the TRUTH !!!
When the instruction is REPEATED just a few verses down (Acts 15:28-29) it VERY CLEARLY says that the Holy Spirit was part of this decision !!!

For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to put on you no greater burden except for these necessary things: that you abstain from meat offered to idols, and from blood, and from anything strangled, and from fornication; from which keeping yourselves back, you will do well. Farewell.
(Acts 15:28-29 EMTV)
Its VERY clear that your intentions here are to ignore anything you can to push your fallacy...
 
Sparrowhawke said:
FoC? are you praying or are you yelling now?
Just drawing attention to certain points.
Lets keep on topic please :)
 
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