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Is the Law God gave through Moses still in effect today???

  • Thread starter Thread starter lou11
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You didn't answer my question about being a vegetarian. IS IT SIN? (lol - i wasn't actually yelling but I think I'm funny sometimes). Maybe you weren't actually yelling either? It's okay.

They just knocked and said, "We're testing the fire alarm." -- lol I'll take my leave then and return with an reply to Drew. Again, I would ask for the prayers of the saints.
 
As written in Leviticus....what we are to eat is a law.
Sorry but that is incorrect.
We are no longer under the Law and no longer observe cleanness or ceremonial precepts.

Throughout all this discussion I have been saying that there is both a physical and spiritual aspect to the food laws, what is clean and unclean. Please consider the following I wrote on this subject several months ago....
Given what you just tried to pull with this 'James said' nonsense, Im not even interested.
It is VERY clear that the Holy Spirit GUIDED the Jerusalem Counsel to conclude what they did, yet you will keep trying to find ANY reason to reject their conclusions.

EVEN IF James was the one who had drawn the conclusion YOUR views that it just isnt quite important is astounding. If JAMES tells us something and God kept it in His word then it is GODS word and to be followed.
Can we expect that you dismiss James letter ?
If not, then regardless Acts 15:19-20 IS GODS instruction to the gentile church.

Drew, Mark 7 is not about the foods that defile.
yeah....it is.
Foods are what ENTERS the body...thus it IS about foods by default.

No where are clean or unclean FOODS mentioned.
Please. Lets not play this deceptive game that if its not said in the exact manner YOU demand that it doesnt say what it very plainly does

It is the traditions of how one eats food being discussed...with UNWASHEN HANDS, washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables or, to put it another way...."Why walk not Thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread WITH UNWASHEN HANDS?"
And why do you keep running back to ONE part of the evidence in Matthew and ignoring MARK ?

So He said to them, "Are you also without understanding? Do you not understand that everything entering a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter into his heart but into the stomach, and passes into the latrine, thus purifying all foods?" And He said, "That which comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
(Mark 7:18-20 EMTV)
yes, it IS about the state of the heart and it IS using the fact that NO FOOD that we take into our bodies can defile it (make it 'unclean').
The laws about foods were CLEANNESS issues that related to old covenant worship and the temple which we are no longer UNDER.

Its amazing how complicated some like to make this stuff.


.
 
Sparrowhawke said:
You didn't answer my question about being a vegetarian. IS IT SIN? (lol - i wasn't actually yelling but I think I'm funny sometimes).
Nope. Not a sin.
Romans 14 lays this out very clearly.
Neither eating meat or not is sinful....but if we are causing a brother to stumble with either one then we OUGHT to be willing to make sure we dont.

:)
 
Drew said:
whirlwind said:
As Jesus said....

Matthew 5:17-18Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
All right, let's talk about this passage.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, Torah has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Torah, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€Â.

Saying that "Jesus was a product of His times and culture," I cannot agree with. Seeing Him in that light, I believe, negates His power of being "the same yesterday, today and for ever." I believe it is a mistake to think in those terms.

As far as [Ephesias 2:15], it references ordinances...they were done away with, nailed to the cross as He fulfilled them. Romans, to me, isn't abolishing the law but rather is saying that as the "law is spiritual" [Romans 7:14] when we die to ourselves and "Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." [Romans 8:10] Then, the law, or the righteousness of the law, "is fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." [Romans 8:4]

In other words...the law isn't abolished but is fulfilled in each of us as we live the spirit of the law.


How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Torah do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Torah was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal (building, of course, on the ideas of others – I am no Bible scholar) hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light


What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.


All these things are types for future events. Babylon is Satan's realm and isn't yet destroyed.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Torah was retired.

Of course, the argument here is only sketch, but I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Torah will remain in force basically to the end of time.

His work of being the Passover Lamb for our sins was finished. All else is not yet accomplished.
 
whirlwind said:
All these things are types for future events. Babylon is Satan's realm and isn't yet destroyed.
No. Here is the whole passage. Isaiah is talking about Babylon and Babylon was indeed destroyed - the prophecy was fulfilled:

The oracle concerning Babylon which (C)Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
2(D)Lift up a standard on the [a](E)bare hill,
Raise your voice to them,
(F)Wave the hand that they may (G)enter the doors of the nobles.
3I have commanded My consecrated ones,
I have even called My (H)mighty warriors,
My proudly exulting ones,
To execute My anger.
4A (I)sound of tumult on the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A sound of the uproar of kingdoms,
Of nations gathered together!
The LORD of hosts is mustering the army for battle.
5They are coming from a far country,
From the (J)farthest horizons,
The LORD and His instruments of (K)indignation,
To (L)destroy the whole land.
Judgment on the Day of the LORD
6Wail, for the (M)day of the LORD is near!
It will come as (N)destruction from the Almighty.
7Therefore (O)all hands will fall limp,
And every man's (P)heart will melt.
8They will be (Q)terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will (R)writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.
9Behold, (S)the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10For the (T)stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The (U)sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
 
In other words...the law isn't abolished but is fulfilled in each of us as we live the spirit of the law.
Please explain what you mean in more detail - I never denied that we are still to obey the "spirit of the Law". But in the texts I posted, Paul is clear and unambiguous - the law in the form of the written code of "613 rules" has been abolished.
 
Drew said:
whirlwind said:
It isn't the bread, it isn't the meat it is TRADITIONS OF MAN being discussed. [/b]
You are merely restating a position that my argument demonstrates does not work. I think you should be pointing out the error in my argument, not simply restating your position. Why, if the issue is really the issue of washing with unclean hands, does Jesus say this:

And He was saying, "(T)That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, (U)envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man

Is this about handwashing? Is this about traditions about how one eats food? Clearly not. So the argument that the discussion is only focussed on these things is simply not borne out by the text.

Yes Drew, it is about traditions...washing. The Pharisees were not upset about food but rather the....

Mark 7:2 And when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, the found fault.

They found fault with how they ate the food...not the food itself. The verses are NOT about clean and/or unclean food. The Pharisees taught that man was defiled (not by the food eaten) but by not washing his hands. Jesus corrected that tradition of man by saying that the things they considered unclean (their man made traditions) as that is the subject, don't defile us.

On the other hand....God said certain foods, which were not created to be received :D , can defile us. Do they cause us to go to hell? No, I don't think so but they can make us ill. For instance, what if high cholesterol, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc. that we simply assume come about with aging....don't? What if years of taking in toxins are the cause? Something to consider.
 
Further to the Babylon matter and your (ww) interpretation that this a treatment of Satan's realm. Well, what about these other texts from Isaiah - are they all about Satan's realm as well. Or are they about what they say they are about?:

The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, (AF)just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, 25to (AG)break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains Then his (AH)yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder.

Do not rejoice, O (AN)Philistia, all of you,
Because the rod that (AO)struck you is broken;
For from the serpent's root a (AP)viper will come out,
And its fruit will be a (AQ)flying serpent.


The oracle concerning (A)Moab
Surely in a night (B)Ar of Moab is devastated and ruined;
Surely in a night Kir of Moab is devastated and ruined.


The (A)oracle concerning (B)Damascus
"Behold, Damascus is about to be (C)removed from being a city
And will become a (D)fallen ruin.


These are all - like for Babylon - prophecies of God's judgement against real nations. And they have all come to pass.
 
whirlwind said:
On the other hand....God said certain foods, which were not created to be received :D , can defile us. Do they cause us to go to hell? No, I don't think so but they can make us ill. For instance, what if high cholesterol, high blood pressure, arthritis, etc. that we simply assume come about with aging....don't? What if years of taking in toxins are the cause? Something to consider. [/b]
It really boils down to this: Jesus said clearly that nothing that goes into your stomach and out of your bottom defiles. This is in direct contradiction to the Levitical food laws. To suggest that anything other than food is at issue here is simply not consistent with the text. You might as well say that He is talking about the folly of human wisdom - but I suggest we all know that neither human wisdom, nor legalism, nor doctrine, nor pride goes into the stomach and then into toilet.

Good old fashioned food is the only thing in view in this particular statement.
 
Drew said:
It really boils down to this: Jesus said clearly that nothing that goes into your stomach and out of your bottom defiles. This is in direct contradiction to the Levitical food laws.
EXACTLY !
The food issues were about their being UNCLEAN and thus DEFILING.
When Jesus shows that nothing we take into our bodies (which is WHAT ELSE besides FOOD?) it very clearly defies the Laws about FOOD that we would have taken INTO our bodies and its being UNclean and thus defiling.

To suggest that anything other than food is at issue here is simply not consistent with the text.
absolutely.
But what shall we expect from men with agendas...

Good old fashioned food is the only thing in view in this particular statement.
No way around that fact...
 
Yes Drew, it is about traditions...washing. The Pharisees were not upset about food but rather the....
And Jesus used FOODS to EXPLAIN out it is ONLY that which comes OUT of a man that now 'defiles' him.
Either Jesus is a LIAR or nothing I can eat or drink (that IS food) can defile me.
Mark 7:2 And when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, the found fault.
Always trying to narrow the evidence down to your points...
So He said to them, "Are you also without understanding? Do you not understand that everything entering a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter into his heart but into the stomach, and passes into the latrine, thus purifying all foods?" And He said, "That which comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
(Mark 7:18-20 EMTV)

They found fault with how they ate the food...not the food itself.
Thats really nice, but Jesus VERY clearly shows that HE is talking about what is taken INTO the body.
And again the text shows 'purifying foods'....something you folks HAVENT yet proven doesnt belong in the texts...

On the other hand....God said certain foods, which were not created to be received :D
Huh....gee....yeah....and God ALSO said not to wear mixed fabrics and a list of OTHER laws that Im quite positive you DONT obey.... :o
 
Drew said:
In other words...the law isn't abolished but is fulfilled in each of us as we live the spirit of the law.
Please explain what you mean in more detail - I never denied that we are still to obey the "spirit of the Law". But in the texts I posted, Paul is clear and unambiguous - the law in the form of the written code of "613 rules" has been abolished.
Precisely.
And the Gods moral law is now written in our hearts....well...its supposed to be...
 
whirlwind
yes or no....do you obey and follow the ENTIRE law...ALL of the written Mosaic Code ?
If not, please explain why...
If so, I'll start posting the list of written laws and we'll see if thats actually true..
 
Heres another tidbit...

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed principalities and powers, He mocked them in public, triumphing over them in it.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:13-17 EMTV)



Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you,....
Since they were complete in Christ, had everything in him, were circumcised in him; and particularly since the handwriting of the law was blotted out, and torn to pieces through the nails of the cross of Christ, the apostle's conclusion is, that they should be judged by no man; they should not regard or submit to any man's judgment, as to the observance of the ceremonial law: Christ is the prophet who was to be raised up like unto Moses, and who only, and not Moses, is to be heard; saints are to call no man master upon earth but him; they are not to be the servants of men, nor should suffer any yoke of bondage to be imposed upon them; and should they be suffered and condemned by others, as if they were transgressors of the law, and their state bad, for not observing the rituals of the former dispensation, they should not regard such censures, for the judaizing Christians were very censorious, they were ready to look upon and condemn a man as an immoral man, as in a state of damnation, if he did not keep the law of Moses; but such rigid censures were to be disregarded, "let no man judge", or "condemn you"; and though they could not help or hinder the judgment and condemnation of men, yet they could despise them, and not be uneasy with them, but set light by them, as they ought to do. The Syriac version renders it, נדודכון, "let no man trouble you", or make you uneasy, by imposing ceremonies on you: the sense is, that the apostle would not have them submit to the yoke they would lay upon them, nor be terrified by their anathemas against them, for the non-observation of the things that follow:


in meat or in drink;
or on account of not observing the laws and rules about meats and drinks, in the law of Moses; such as related to the difference between clean and unclean creatures, to abstinence in Nazarites from wine and strong drink, and which forbid drinking out of an uncovered vessel, and which was not clean; hence the washing of cups, &c. religiously observed by the Pharisees.
There was no distinction of meats and drinks before the law, but all sorts of herbs and animals, without limitation, were given to be food for men; by the ceremonial law a difference was made between them, some were allowed, and others were forbidden; which law stood only in meats and drinks, and such like things, but is now abolished; for the kingdom of God, or the Gospel dispensation, does not lie in the observance of such outward things, but in internal ones, in righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost; it is not any thing that goes into the man that defiles, nor is anything in its own nature common or unclean, but every creature of God is good, so be it, it be used in moderation and with thankfulness:
-John Gill
 
The commandments of Christ go way beyond the Mosaic laws...into the realm of the impossible. This would seem to be self defeating except for the fact that Jesus provides the grace for a sinless walk in the holiness of God...provided by His very own death and resurrection. This sacrifice with the resulting grace and power is usually overlooked by those who are unable to look to the Lord for a full victory over sin.

Jesus actually closes the loopholes in the law. We are now to be held to a higher standard than the law. The teaching of convenient grace to sin as one feels "lead" is a false gospel. To make provision for sin is a Christ-denying and Spirit grieving stance that only leads to disqualification from the kingdom of God.

<><

John
 
I think it is helpful to look that big picture. Why did God constitute the nation of Israel in the first place? To serve as a mere "example"? I suggest not. Instead, I suggest that the creation of the state of Israel was the first step in the long story of redemption that reached its climax on the cross. Israel was made God's "special people" not for her sake alone, but for the sake of the world. And how could Israel bless the world? By teaching them how super it is to live under Torah? Hardly. Paul understands that, like the Gentile, the Jew is "in Adam", fallen and incapable of overcoming sin:

Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

So how does the Jew bless world. Paul sees the answer - they are cast away (hardened) so that the world can be saved:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles

When does this plan reach its climax? At the cross of course, where the one true and faithful Israelite, Jesus, bears the sin of the whole world. Jesus is fulfilling Israel's great destiny on the cross.

With the destiny fulffilled, the task of Israel has come to a successful end. And so for that reason, hte markers that set the Jew apart from the Gentile - such as the food laws - can be set aside, retired with honour. Not because they were bad, but because they have achieved their purpose.

The written code of Torah is part of a plan - it is not a timeless set of rules.
 
Adullam said:
Jesus actually closes the loopholes in the law.
I do not see how. Did the Levitical laws say that putting certain foods into your mouth and swallowing made you unclean? Yes, it certainly did.

Now what does Jesus say in a discussion centred on the Torah and its interpretation?

Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."

Clearly this not "closing a loophole" - it is a direct abolition of the food laws.
 
The food laws were brought up to show a spiritual lesson...which you would appear to be missing here. The ceremonial laws regarding holiness have been transformed through true holiness. For example the Sabbath rest is a spiritual one.

Jesus spoke through the Spirit. It is quite impossible to understand anything of God without the Holy Spirit. Unless you believe that the Pharisees were literal purveyors of leaven. ;)
 
Adullam said:
The food laws were brought up to show a spiritual lesson...which you would appear to be missing here.
I never denied the teaching of a spiritual lesson, but the food laws were clearly abolished.

The Levitical laws say eating certain foods makes you unclean. Yes or no? Answer: YES.

Jesus says there is no food that makes you unclean. Yes or no? Answer: YES. Remember, Jesus is talking about something that goes into the body, then into the stomach, and then into the drain. I do not know about you, but there is only thing that I put into my body, then my stomach, and then comes out the other end - and that is food.

Conclusion: Jesus overturns the Levitical food laws.
 
Drew said:
Adullam said:
Jesus actually closes the loopholes in the law.
I do not see how. Did the Levitical laws say that putting certain foods into your mouth and swallowing made you unclean? Yes, it certainly did.

Now what does Jesus say in a discussion centred on the Torah and its interpretation?

Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."

Clearly this not "closing a loophole" - it is a direct abolition of the food laws.

It is not an abolition of the food laws. It has nothing to do with food laws. The context in Mark 7 is that the Pharisees were critical of Jesus' disciples because they ate food with unwashed hands. Jesus pointed out their hypocrisy and then explained that eating with unwashed hands (some dirt on the food) is not what defiles a man. This does not mean that all kinds of foods are are edible; some are poisonous. Others, such as pork, are declared to be an abomination to man, not because of any spiritual or symbolic reason but simply because the meat contained harmful ingredients (such as trichinosis spores).
 
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