Is the law too difficult to keep?

[Elijah674]

There it is.

Works are a natural fruit of faith in Christ.

It's as simple as that.

Works do not equal righteousness. They are simply a possible sign that the imputed righteousness of God's Grace though FAITH ALONE is present in that individual. For if there are no works then there is no faith.

However there can be works without faith. Which won't get you to the Kingdom of God.

Righteousness DOES NOT come through the law. ONLY through faith.

Would you agree Elijah?

You mean ONLY through Christ? Phil. 4:13, 2 Cor. 12:9. Man has his required 'weak' but his best LOVE part to put forth first, (not the ones of Rev. 3:16) & then Yes, I agree with that. Rom. 2:13 'For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.'

--Elijah

 

[Strangelove]

You mean ONLY through Christ? Phil. 4:13, 2 Cor. 12:9. Man has his required 'weak' but his best LOVE part to put forth first, (not the ones of Rev. 3:16) & then Yes, I agree with that.

Right and lets just flesh this out a bit so Christians don't get confused that just doing the law = Justification :

Rom. 2:13 'For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.'

--Elijah

Let's look at the verse in context which is talking about Jews and gentiles:

2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to
the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
​

2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without
law:[gentiles] and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the
law;[Jews]

2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of
the law shall be justified. [faith without works means NO FAITH = NO JUSTIFICATION. And how do you know you have faith? See below]

2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
unto themselves:
​

2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
accusing or else excusing one another;)​

We Christians are not bound by the law in any way shape or form. We do by nature the things contained in the law.

It is a natural fruit of our faith and we do not gain any righteousnes on the strength of our law keeping or works.

Doc.

 

[Deavonreye]

They should have done their best to follow it. Yes.

And today do you see Christians saying that Adultery is good? No. lest i have not seen any preaching that people should commit adultery, have you?

Acknowledging that Adultery is wrong and doing ones best to avoided it today is good.

But my eternal life with God is not finished if i fail in this.

The again what i have said here does not amount to a licence to sin as some have mistakenly claimed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So, when Jesus didn't stone the woman who was caught in the act of adultry, was he disobeying his own law, or was he saying that the law was ulitmately the incorrect way to deal with an adulterer [meaning that the law was wrong]?

 

[Elijah674]

So, when Jesus didn't stone the woman who was caught in the act of adultry, was he disobeying his own law, or was he saying that the law was ulitmately the incorrect way to deal with an adulterer [meaning that the law was wrong]?

Are you serious???? It is mind/boggling that Christians still do not understand what Christ came to earth for! You think that He died ONLY for mankind???

Come on [[FORUM]] Wake up! Isa. 42:21 DOCUMENTS perhaps even the main reason (No. 1) that Christ came to this planet? It was to PROVE TO THE UNIVERSE that there was NO FAULT IN THEIR CREATION of Luciffer nor Adam on.

Christ came [TO MAGNIFY THEIR ETERNAL LAW] AND [MAKE IT HONORABLE], surely there was NO HINT even about that They could do away with their ETERNAL COVENANT! (Heb. 13:20) Or why have the Godhead suffer with Christ's agony & death & be put on trial 'BEFORE THE UNIVERSE' to begin with if all that they needed to do was as satan tried to 'sell' mankind in Dan. 7:25!

The Lord knew this womans heart, and what was HIS REPLY TO HER!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Right and lets just flesh this out a bit so Christians don't get confused that just doing the law = Justification :



Let's look at the verse in context which is talking about Jews and gentiles:

2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to
the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:​

2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.​

2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without
law:[gentiles] and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the
law;[Jews]​

2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of
the law shall be justified. [faith without works means NO FAITH = NO JUSTIFICATION. And how do you know you have faith? See below]​

2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
unto themselves:​

2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
accusing or else excusing one another;)​

We Christians are not bound by the law in any way shape or form. We do by nature the things contained in the law.

It is a natural fruit of our faith and we do not gain any righteousnes on the strength of our law keeping or works.

Doc.

I agree with that 'pretty much' so far. And by the word of 'so far' I am meaning at the present time that the above living works which we know of are followed.

I added 'pretty much' because of the MATURITY that one does or does not gain. And surely you are right, yet God does REQUIRE OBEDIENT LOVING MATURITY!

The Judgement will take in from this time of Rom. 8:1's JUSTIFICATION on up until verse 14's WORK of Sanctification... [IF] we stay the free will course or not. Heb. 11:13 + Eccl. 12:13-14, Rev. 20:12.

And 'i' for one am NOT DEAD YET!;)

--Elijah

 

[Strangelove]

Are you serious???? It is mind/boggling that Christians still do not understand what Christ came to earth for! You think that He died ONLY for mankind???

He's NOT CHRISTIAN!!!!

Aaaaarrrrghghh!!

Nick! This is why we need to have Christian tags on display under username!!

Lolz!

 

[stovebolts]

Doc,
While he does not profess to be a Christian, he did grow up in a Christian family. How do you know that he's simply not a wayward son?

As Christians, we may not always act like Christians, nor profess our Christianity. You see, there was a time I hated God, despised God and turned my back on God and had you and I gotten into a discussion on the matter, you would have repelled me, and affirmed my hatred for Christianity...

There is always more than meets the eye Doc. Neither of us knows what God is doing in his life because we only know what Deavonreye has told us.

 

[Strangelove]

Doc,
While he does not profess to be a Christian, he did grow up in a Christian family. How do you know that he's simply not a wayward son?

As Christians, we may not always act like Christians, nor profess our Christianity. You see, there was a time I hated God, despised God and turned my back on God and had you and I gotten into a discussion on the matter, you would have repelled me, and affirmed my hatred for Christianity...

There is always more than meets the eye Doc. Neither of us knows what God is doing in his life because we only know what Deavonreye has told us.

Thats very interesting Stove and I'm gonna sleep on that and try to get back to you about it tomorrow.

 

[Elijah674]

Doc,
While he does not profess to be a Christian, he did grow up in a Christian family. How do you know that he's simply not a wayward son?

As Christians, we may not always act like Christians, nor profess our Christianity. You see, there was a time I hated God, despised God and turned my back on God and had you and I gotten into a discussion on the matter, you would have repelled me, and affirmed my hatred for Christianity...

There is always more than meets the eye Doc. Neither of us knows what God is doing in his life because we only know what Deavonreye has told us.

That is true, we cannot read any mind. (heart) But it is the posting that some of us take in, in sorrow! What Christ did on earth, He had always done & said. Even Cain could have done it differently in Gen. 4:7. (and surly it would have been record as such) King Saul did not need to go against God! And even Achan in Joshua 7 was given several chances for he & his family to admit sin at the start. And the 120 years STRIVING of the Holy Spirit in Gen. 6:3 with Noah preaching??? NO, these 1/2 truth postings are what get to some of us. Note the additional information that Christ gives in John here that was [LEFT OUT] of the post....

John.8
[1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
[2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

[3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
(the same ones of Matt. 23!)

[4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
[5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
[6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
[8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
[9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
[10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

And in case it might be missed, what group was Christ addressing? Matt. 23:38

--Elijah

 

[sk0rpi0n]

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
-Deuteronomy 30:10-11"

That word 'difficult' also means 'hidden' and indeed that is the translation that the KJV translaters deemed appropriate.

30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Essentially God is saying the law is not hidden, so follow it. And Jesus himself repeated the same thing about keeping the law.


"He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD"
-Ezekial 18:9

Because He encouraged His people to follow the written laws in the Old Testament times to show them that it was impossible to keep His perfect standards, and to show them their need for a Saviour.

Wait, what? God had these laws running for 2000 years, having people killed for picking up sticks on the sabbath... ONLY to show people that it was impossible to keep his perfect standards? Is there anything in the OT which can substantiate this claim? or did Jesus say any such thing?

Im sure your claim is only backed up by the writings of Paul, but do Pauls words really hold the same weight as Gods or Jesus' or the other OT prophets? Please.... I dont think so.

3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.​

Tell me, do you keep ALL Old Testament written laws to God's perfect standard?

Definitely not. I never claimed I did. Im not exactly a christian, but Im just curious to understand how christians interpret their scriptures.


"For the commandment is a lamp; And the law is light; And reproofs of instruction are the way of life.
-Proverbs 6:23 "

But it can NEVER be kept to His standard. Only Christ did that.

Jesus obviously outdid everybody else who were considered righteous for "keeping the law". The point really is that the law was still Gods yardstick for measuring the righteousness of a man, as proven in so many verses in the OT and the NT.


"All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees. I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin.
-Psalms 18:20-26"

1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his
word is not in us.

You can approach that contradiction as you will. I will go with New Testament every single time.​

Ok, so you are saying that the author of that psalm was lying....and it still remains in the bible that christians read today. Wow. Ok... thats a new one to me.
Just out of sheer curiosity, what other part of the OT do you substitute with the NT?



"5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.
Luke 1:5-6"

Because following the law was righteous in that time for the Hebrews. Now we have the two commandments of Christ which writes the laws on our hearts. We don't need to read written law anymore because the moral laws will be fulfilled in us as a natural fruit of our faith.

I dont recall Jesus saying any such thing. Paul may have implied that the OT laws are done away with, but shouldnt christians rather be listening to Jesus, instead of someone who has never met Jesus, but claimed to have had visions of him? *shrug*

Jesus was countering the Pharisees corruption of Moses and the prophets AS USUAL. They had set themselves up as authorities over the Law, and had even taken to deciding which of God's laws were worthy, tossing some that weren't and adding others that were. They were guilty of teaching people it was okay to break some commandments. it's a entirely different context from not living up to Moses (which we can not do):

Mathhew 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees..."

Thats because Jesus established the pharisees as being hypocrites

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they TELL you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach"
Matthew 23:2-3

Its like criminals reading to you the law of your city. Its still the "right" thing when applied to society, but their deeds are split from what they are reading to you. You would need to obey the law that they read out to you, but NOT commit the same crimes that they do, or you would be the same. In other words "You would need to exceed them in righteousness." ;)

Barnes' Notes on the Bible describes it with minimum fuss>>>
*snip*

.

Read above.

 

[Strangelove]

"Im sure your claim is only backed up by the writings of Paul, but do Pauls words really hold the same weight as Gods or Jesus' or the other OT prophets? Please.... I dont think so.

I dont recall Jesus saying any such thing. Paul may have implied that the OT laws are done away with, but shouldnt christians rather be listening to Jesus, instead of someone who has never met Jesus, but claimed to have had visions of him? *shrug*

Ah so now we see whats really going on. Now that you have been TOTALLY disproven regarding Christians NOT having to keep OT law by clear scripture.....now you want to say that all of the Apostle Pauls words need to be completely disregarded!! so you went away for a about a week to thing about it and this is what you've come back with?

Riiiiiiiight. Maybe you have a 'new perspective' (NT Wright) on Paul you'd like to intoduce us to?

Tell me, whats your understanding of Jesus talking about 'fulfilling' the law. And what did He mean on the cross when He sais 'It is finished'?

In fact what was the purpose of Jesus and the cross in you're opinion?

Do you thing Christians are lawless just because we don't follow OT written law?

Where are gentiles who were never given the law of Moses told to follow those laws?

 

[farouk]

In the New Testament Gospel, through faith in the Lord Jesus, 'grace reigns through righteousness', as Romans says.

Good to remember in consideration of the believer being under grace.

 

[Elijah674]

Ah so now we see whats really going on. Now that you have been TOTALLY disproven regarding Christians NOT having to keep OT law by clear scripture.....now you want to say that all of the Apostle Pauls words need to be completely disregarded!! so you went away for a about a week to thing about it and this is what you've come back with?

Riiiiiiiight. Maybe you have a 'new perspective' (NT Wright) on Paul you'd like to intoduce us to?

Tell me, whats your understanding of Jesus talking about 'fulfilling' the law. And what did He mean on the cross when He sais 'It is finished'?

In fact what was the purpose of Jesus and the cross in you're opinion?

Do you thing Christians are lawless just because we don't follow OT written law?

Where are gentiles who were never given the law of Moses told to follow those laws?

Well, if you are not doing the 2 Cor' 4:2 thing??? you tell us what the Ten Commandments teach about your.. 'It is Finished' thing!

--Elijah

 

[Strangelove]

Well, if you are not doing the 2 Cor' 4:2 thing??? you tell us what the Ten Commandments teach about your.. 'It is Finished' thing!

--Elijah

For the 1,028th time.....

.....I dont' understand what you're talking about.

Why don't you tell us what the ten commandments teach about yer not eating piggy thing??

 

[farouk]

PS:

Also, Galatians is a good epistle to read on the subject of the New Testament believer's relationship to grace and law.

And then there is Ephesians 2.8&9: 'By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast' (KJ).

 

[Elijah674]

PS:

Also, Galatians is a good epistle to read on the subject of the New Testament believer's relationship to grace and law.

And then there is Ephesians 2.8&9: 'By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast' (KJ).

You miss the point;)! But I doubt that Doc does?? We are not talking about the law that Moses wrote in a book & placed in the 'side of the Ark', wherein inside were the Godheads Eternal Covenant, and even still is! (Moses book Deut. 31:9 & 24-26 & then see Rev. 11:19 for where this Testimony is at)

And Piggy is not mentioned in the Ten Eternal Commandments that God Himself gave us as is suggested?
And God documents in 1 John 2:4 what one is who says.. 'I love you Lord' and then just flat out will not keep these 10 Eternal Commandments!

And do keeping these Commandments save anyone? Of course not, and who ever said that they did?? But the Inspiration does say that 'he that keepeth not my commandments' [IS A LIAR] and [THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM]'.

That is pretty simple Doc, for even the Heb. 5 babes to undrstand!

--Elijah

 

[Strangelove]

You miss the point;)! But I doubt that Doc does?? We are not talking about the law that Moses wrote in a book & placed in the 'side of the Ark', wherein inside were the Godheads Eternal Covenant, and even still is! (Moses book Deut. 31:9 & 24-26 & then see Rev. 11:19 for where this Testimony is at)

And Piggy is not mentioned in the Ten Eternal Commandments that God Himself gave us as is suggested?
And God documents in 1 John 2:4 what one is who says.. 'I love you Lord' and then just flat out will not keep these 10 Eternal Commandments!

And do keeping these Commandments save anyone? Of course not, and who ever said that they did?? But the Inspiration does say that 'he that keepeth not my commandments' [IS A LIAR] and [THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM]'.

That is pretty simple Doc, for even the Heb. 5 babes to undrstand!

--Elijah

When are you gonna admit it to yourself?

Only moral law stands now becasue it is written in our hearts and we are guided by love and therefore keep Jesus' commanments by nature. And we are not accountable to the OT punishments of that law by man, only to God.

Ceremonial law is GONE and that includes yer piggy thingy.

Stop [trying] to 'do' like the Galatians 2:4 ones+!

 

[Elijah674]

When are you gonna admit it to yourself?

Only moral law stands now becasue it is written in our hearts and we are guided by love and therefore keep Jesus' commanments by nature. And we are not accountable to the OT punishments of that law by man, only to God.

Ceremonial law is GONE and that includes yer piggy thingy.

Stop [trying] to 'do' like the Galatians 2:4 ones+!

'i' feel your pain!

 

[zone]

You miss the point;)! But I doubt that Doc does?? We are not talking about the law that Moses wrote in a book & placed in the 'side of the Ark', wherein inside were the Godheads Eternal Covenant, and even still is! (Moses book Deut. 31:9 & 24-26 & then see Rev. 11:19 for where this Testimony is at)

And Piggy is not mentioned in the Ten Eternal Commandments that God Himself gave us as is suggested?
And God documents in 1 John 2:4 what one is who says.. 'I love you Lord' and then just flat out will not keep these 10 Eternal Commandments!

And do keeping these Commandments save anyone? Of course not, and who ever said that they did?? But the Inspiration does say that 'he that keepeth not my commandments' [IS A LIAR] and [THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM]'.

That is pretty simple Doc, for even the Heb. 5 babes to undrstand!

--Elijah

hi Elijah.
i would like to start by saying that we are only able to obey the 2 greatest Commandments (as summarized and encapsulating all of the Law by Jesus): Loving God and neighbour by the Power of regeneration and the Holy Spirit shedding Agape Love in our hearts, whereby we cry Abba, Father!

and if any believer is honest with himself, he ought to be humbled and realize, by looking at Moses (The Decalogue) that he is barely able to obey those 2 Commandments!

if you are willing, later i would like to ask you about that, beginning with the First Great Commandment of the 10.

i thank God He has saved us by Grace through Faith, otherwise we would all be going to hell.

with that said, above you have said you know keeping the 10 Commandments to God's satisfaction as the means by which you are saved is not possible.

since you have said keeping The Law after justification pleases God, so i assume you observe and keep the Sabbath Day as recorded in Moses? (4th Commandment?).

if i'm off-base, please correct me. in the meantime, i want to post immediately following this one, a look at the Decalogue's Fourth Commandment and hope you will respond truthfully whether or not you are following this Law to God's satisfaction.

zone.

 

[zone]

The Basics

God gave the shabbat to Israel:
"the LORD hath given you the sabbath" (Exo 16:29).

Commandment #4
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exo 20:8).

The sabbath was a witness between God and Israel:
"Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you (Exo 31:13b).

What does the name shabbat mean?
The word shabbat (sabbath) comes from shabbathown (shab-baw-thone, Strong's #7676-7677): meaning rest.

God himself will describe what rest means:
Abide every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day (Exo 16:29);

Thou shalt not do any work (Exo 20:10);"Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death" (Exo 31:15).

Ye shall kindle no fire (Exo 35:3);
He giveth you on the sixth day the bread for the sabbath also (see Exo 16:27-29); "See, that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

Ye shall afflict your souls by a statute for ever; - afflict: looking down, browbeaten, depressed, submit self, be weakened (Lev 16:29), see also Exo 3:7 "affliction i.e. depression"

It comes from Commandments #4
Remember the shabbat, to keep it holy (Exo 20:8).

God gave the shabbat to Israel as a day of rest during which they would remember the hard days and years of bondage while in Egypt.
"And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day" *Deut 5:15).

In Egypt the Israelites labored day and night for over 200 years as slaves. They were not given days off. They were not allowed to have a vacation.

As slaves they suffered the vigors of hard manual labor. We believe they were instrumental in building several pyramids and many other ancient structures. Their bodies were always tired because of the labors. They cried because of their many bodily injuries and illnesses. They suffered great miseries.

God heard their cries:
"And it came to pass in the process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage" (Exo 2:23).

The sabbath was compared to the seventh day of creation where God rested from all his works. God's rest was not because of misery, bondage that came to an end, or because of some one's mistreatment. This does not mean a sabbath was held in heaven every seven days to commemorate the end of six days of creation. Nor does it mean man always observed a seventh day sabbath during the time between Adam and the giving of manna and the Ten Commandments.

There is no record anyone knew of a seventh day sabbath until God revealed it to Moses in the collection of manna and it is then incorporated into the Ten Commandments as Commandment #4.

The sabbath law

Anyone who breaks the sabbath requirements is to be put to death.
This means a person who is guilty of the following must die:
Anyone who works on the sabbath;
Anyone who goes out of their dwelling:
Anyone who makes a fire;
Anyone who goes out of the home on the shabbat to gather or buy food to eat that day;
Anyone who prepares food.

The sabbath law was given to Israel, not to the Gentile nations:
"And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them" (Exo 20:11-12).

How are they to be put to death?
"And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp (Num 15:34-35).

The death penalty is to be administered by everyone in the congregation gathering a stone to throw at the guilty as hard as a person could throw it because killing the guilty soul was the purpose.

The fourth Commandment contains the law with later addenda to explain how to observe it and the punishment for a violation.

There was to be given no love or mercy for a sabbath breaker.

There was no appeal to a higher court or power, God told Moses the guilty must die.

Israel did not keep God's statutes or execute his judgments against the guilty:
"And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manner of the heathen that are round about you" (Eze 1:12).