Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[IncredibleTransformation]

The pre-trib futurism preterism doctrines came out of the counter reformation to throw Christians off the scent..

tob

It can certainly become a distraction if one isn't careful.

 

[JLB]

There is a Rapture, your correct, but your timing is off again,

Why don't you ever include the Resurrection in your reference to the Rapture?

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Together describes the Resurrected ones TOGETHER with Raptured ones.

Did you ever wonder why only the Rapture of the Church is mentioned by pre-trib teachers, while the resurrection is left completely out?

The resurrection of the Church comes first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thessalonians 4:16

the dead in Christ will rise first... THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

Any teaching about the Rapture as coming before the Resurrection is completely false.

That is where the big hole is, in the pre-trib doctrine, trying to teach God's people the Rapture comes 7 years before the Resurrection, when the scripture clearly teaches the dead in Christ rise first.

Any teaching about the Rapture, should be taught together with resurrection as one event.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Why don't you ever include the Resurrection in your reference to the Rapture?

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Together describes the Resurrected ones TOGETHER with Raptured ones.

Did you ever wonder why only the Rapture of the Church is mentioned by pre-trib teachers, while the resurrection is left completely out?

The resurrection of the Church comes first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thessalonians 4:16

the dead in Christ will rise first... THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

Any teaching about the Rapture as coming before the Resurrection is completely false.

That is where the big hole is, in the pre-trib doctrine, trying to teach God's people the Rapture comes 7 years before the Resurrection, when the scripture clearly teaches the dead in Christ rise first.

Any teaching about the Rapture, should be taught together with resurrection as one event.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

The Problem Post tribbers have is there is no mention of no Resurrection in Revelation. Just Jesus coming after the 7th seal. In 19, we come with Jesus for the Human remains feast. There is no Rapture mentioned for Post tribbers, Everyone is in Heaven, included 144,000 and the few that struggled and overcome. The resurrection and rapture of the church happened before the events of Rev started. That's why there is no mention of the Church after Rev 3.

Thought we been though this already, but for a Friend, I don't mind going over it again, because in case you forgot.

Resurrection event is the new body, so timing of that is not important. No matter what point in time you buy the farm here on earth, you still get a new body. When the Lord comes to take body out of the way so Satan won't be hindered, the dead first, then us who remain alive, then those that belong to him and the Father who over come.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

The Problem Post tribbers have is there is no mention of no Resurrection in Revelation. Just Jesus coming after the 7th seal. In 19, we come with Jesus for the Human remains feast. There is no Rapture mentioned for Post tribbers, Everyone is in Heaven, included 144,000 and the few that struggled and overcome. The resurrection and rapture of the church happened before the events of Rev started. That's why there is no mention of the Church after Rev 3.

Thought we been though this already, but for a Friend, I don't mind going over it again, because in case you forgot.

Resurrection event is the new body, so timing of that is not important. No matter what point in time you buy the farm here on earth, you still get a new body. When the Lord comes to take body out of the way so Satan won't be hindered, the dead first, then us who remain alive, then those that belong to him and the Father who over come.

Mike.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Do you deny that the Resurrection comes before the Rapture?



...caught up together with them.

Do you deny the Rapture and Resurrection are one event?


From your post, I couldn't tell where you stand.

Maybe you can clear up what you believe by answering the questions.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Do you deny that the Resurrection comes before the Rapture?



...caught up together with them.

Do you deny the Rapture and Resurrection are one event?


From your post, I couldn't tell where you stand.

Maybe you can clear up what you believe by answering the questions.


JLB

The resurrection is that of the body, we get a new body. Many came from the grave with Jesus. I wonder if they got their new body, or were they skeletons walking around, freaking everyone out. Before the Rapture event, there is a ressurection Event.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:14-18)

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1Co 15:52)

So, it appears there might be a time to get a new body, for those dead now. There is a resurrection event first though, then the rest of us join them.

None of this puts a timing event to Rev though, because this resurrection is not mentioned in Rev. The error comes from just assuming Jesus only comes once for judgement after the 7th seal, and not comes for the Church first, then judgement. That's why timing of Resurrection does not matter as both groups have to assume something else to make a timing event in the first place.

Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The resurrection is that of the body, we get a new body. Many came from the grave with Jesus. I wonder if they got their new body, or were they skeletons walking around, freaking everyone out. Before the Rapture event, there is a ressurection Event.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:14-18)

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1Co 15:52)

So, it appears there might be a time to get a new body, for those dead now. There is a resurrection event first though, then the rest of us join them.

None of this puts a timing event to Rev though, because this resurrection is not mentioned in Rev. The error comes from just assuming Jesus only comes once for judgement after the 7th seal, and not comes for the Church first, then judgement. That's why timing of Resurrection does not matter as both groups have to assume something else to make a timing event in the first place.

Mike.

You can't say it's not mentioned.
Revelation 20:5b;
"This is the first resurrection".

 

[turnorburn]

It can certainly become a distraction if one isn't careful.

It wasn't a distraction for these folks it was made abundantly clear..

http://biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

tob

 

[JCitoL]

Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

it surely was a means for speculation in some cases, because when the love for the neighbor(the goodness) is (as it were) replaced by something else, then it is certain there is a speculation, and unfortunately there were many sects that did it

Blessings

 

[JLB]

The resurrection is that of the body, we get a new body.

Yes just like the Rapture, those who have fallen asleep will receive a new body, just like those who are alive and remain will receive a new body.

The difference is the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them...

The common factor is both the dead in Christ and those who are Raptured, will receive their new bodies at His Coming.

The is One Event whereby all His people will be gathered together, both those in heaven and those who are on earth.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

I believe we can agree on this.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

You can't say it's not mentioned.
Revelation 20:5b;
"This is the first resurrection".

ya, but that is after the cow stuff hits the fan.

Yes just like the Rapture, those who have fallen asleep will receive a new body, just like those who are alive and remain will receive a new body.

The difference is the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them...

The common factor is both the dead in Christ and those who are Raptured, will receive their new bodies at His Coming.

The is One Event whereby all His people will be gathered together, both those in heaven and those who are on earth.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

I believe we can agree on this.


JLB

Right, we both agree with this, but then that is a reason only novices use the Resurrection event to prove either case, based on their understanding of when Jesus comes. If Jesus comes after the Tribulation period, then the resurrection event must occur during that time.
If Jesus comes before the Tribulation, then that event must occur before tribulation. If it's in the middle of tribulation, then the event must occur in the Middle somewhere.

So, to battle it out, both sides needs something else besides the resurrection event that just does not assume what Time or how many times the Lord comes.

Blessings JLB.

Whatever the Case, Preterist are way out there as they think there is nothing else to come.

 

[JLB]

ya, but that is after the cow stuff hits the fan.



Right, we both agree with this, but then that is a reason only novices use the Resurrection event to prove either case, based on their understanding of when Jesus comes. If Jesus comes after the Tribulation period, then the resurrection event must occur during that time.
If Jesus comes before the Tribulation, then that event must occur before tribulation. If it's in the middle of tribulation, then the event must occur in the Middle somewhere.

So, to battle it out, both sides needs something else besides the resurrection event that just does not assume what Time or how many times the Lord comes.

Blessings JLB.

Whatever the Case, Preterist are way out there as they think there is nothing else to come.

The Resurrection and Rapture are one event that takes place at His Coming. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

This is called the Day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:1

He comes a second time only.
Hebrews 9:28

When He comes, He will gather all His people together at the resurrection/rapture.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

If the rapture is taught then the resurrection should be taught with it, as they are one event that takes place at His Coming.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

i was taught that when Jesus said this..

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This was when he was coming back not one minute sooner nor one minute later..

tob

 

[Brother Mike]

The Resurrection and Rapture are one event that takes place at His Coming. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

This is called the Day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:1

He comes a second time only.
Hebrews 9:28

When He comes, He will gather all His people together at the resurrection/rapture.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

If the rapture is taught then the resurrection should be taught with it, as they are one event that takes place at His Coming.


JLB

Right, but the issue with that is there is no gathering at the end, there is a US coming with him. The Day of the Lord Comes after the 1/2 of silence on the earth, the 7th seal. The Wrath of the Lamb. We won't be needing rescued, and that day won't over take us.

Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php_1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Php_2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The Day of Christ or the Day of His anointed is where we get to be with him. We are taken "BEFORE" the Son of perdition is revealed The one that sits on the throne in Israel calling himself god.

He comes a second time only.
Hebrews 9:28

Only those looking for him, shall he appear. In the Day of the Lord, every eye on the planet will see him come in power and glory with the Angels. Not just the ones looking for him.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Heb 9:28)

So you see, you won't even be around for any tribulation. Don't get down about it, God is going to trash this planet and there would be no good place to hang out here anyway.

i was taught that when Jesus said this..

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This was when he was coming back not one minute sooner nor one minute later..

tob

I read your post, just to let you know I am not ignoring you or other post. If it's your understanding He only comes after the 7th Angel sounds off and the 7th seal, then OK.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Right, but the issue with that is there is no gathering at the end, there is a US coming with him.

No Gathering at the end?????

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


...from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

His people in heaven, who will come with Him, and His people on earth who will be Raptured, WILL BE GATHERED TOGETHER AT HIS COMING...

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds... Mark 13:26

JLB.

 

[righteyealenna]

Remember that religion is one of Satan’s hidden dynasties. He loves to plant false doctrines, which twist Scripture, in Christian churches.

If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16

The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ (anti-Christ .= “instead of Christ” in the Greek).

It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;

At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial (666), Michael will boot Satan, playing his role as the anti-Christ (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall, and so on.

Christ also gave you all 7 seals and trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?

Before 1830 you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830 Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.

And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:

"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)

MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.

P.S. The rapture folks usually turn to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 in an effort to document that false doctrine. However, you must back up to 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and pick up the subject, which is where are the dead.

The following verses document where are the dead.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Even in Paul’s time, there was much misunderstanding about 1 Thessalonians 4, so he wrote 2 Thessalonians 2 in an effort to correct that misunderstanding, which still exists among many Christians today.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Brother I can feel your hatred from here, not happy Jan!

 

[JLB]

The Day of Christ or the Day of His anointed is where we get to be with him. We are taken "BEFORE" the Son of perdition is revealed The one that sits on the throne in Israel calling himself god.

Before the son of perdition is revealed????

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

The Day of Christ WILL NOT COME UNTILL THE MAN OF SIN, the son of perdition is revealed first.

The son of perdition is revealed before the Lord Jesus comes.

The Lord Jesus destroys the son of perdition with the brightness of His Coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

Jesus Christ destroys the son of perdition, the man of sin, the lawless one, with the brightness of His Coming.

JLB

 

[Drew]

Much to my own surprise as someone who accepted the rapture doctrine as Biblical, I have come to believe it is not. The basic problem is that we generally do not know the Bible well enough to understand metaphorical language.

 

[HalleluYAH]

Much to my own surprise as someone who accepted the rapture doctrine as Biblical, I have come to believe it is not. The basic problem is that we generally do not know the Bible well enough to understand metaphorical language.

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly (rapture), and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly (rapture).

 

[smaller]

Our Hope:

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

We are promised that "our enemies" will be made a footstool. I might even hope that we are here to participate in that, in part, even as we speak with and engage each others.

Hebrews 10:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Where will this transpire? Why, in us, of course!

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

The tools of this bruising, this crushing ministration have been given to us. Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness, His Love, and yes, of course, judgments, dire, in order to press our enemy where he belongs, UNDER our feet.

I like to see 'end time' matters to whom it is directed. It is in fact the 'end' of Satan's TIME.

So, for these heavenly things, we look UP for the Reign to Come, eagerly taking in whatever drops we receive in this regards.

There is a time, singular. That is Satan's time. The hold of Satan has been upon the earth from day 1 of Adam.
There are times, plural, as the harvest of souls returns to our Heavenly Father, in each generation of mankind.

and

at the end,

there is the 'halving' or the 'dividing' of TIME, that would be our division from our enemies.

Time, Times and the dividing.

At the end, every mouth will be stopped and the whole world willl stand guilty, before God.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

We see a similar exercise, here:

Revelation 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

John said, even while he was still alive, that it IS the LAST time. And in that time, there is the promise of silence, and the dividing, prior to the Revealing:

1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And what will be the result of this?

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

And in the above, we see the dividing, within the hour that currently is.

Are we in that hour? Only God knows the time. It's not on a worldly clock.

 

[reba]

Much to my own surprise as someone who accepted the rapture doctrine as Biblical, I have come to believe it is not. The basic problem is that we generally do not know the Bible well enough to understand metaphorical language.

For many years i accepted the one of the many ideas of rapture as taught. Not so much any more. I do believe in the return of our Lord .
I dont not believe, He will come back to rescue a weak church.
The Church is His body He is the head ..if the church is weak then He is.
EGW was deceived .... we know that because what she stated did not come to pass
"Late great planet earth" was a money making deception.
Harold Camping
These come to mind quickly