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Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

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wondering said:
Butch, this is not correct.
The early church fathers believed in the traditional understanding of the Trinity.
I've already posted twice on this, but will post again tomorrow with computer.

Wondering
Click to expand...

It depends on what you call traditional. They didn't hold to the Athanasian Creed. They are the one who came up with the Nicene Creed.
 
Mustard Socks said:
I'll interject here of my own accord and say, great verse.
So too do I believe we can look at , "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58. And recall also God's words in Exodus 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Click to expand...

I'm not really following you on this.
 
Butch5 said:
It depends on what you call traditional. They didn't hold to the Athanasian Creed. They are the one who came up with the Nicene Creed.
Click to expand...
No. I'm speaking about the very beginning of the 100's.

I've read your ideas and I believe the word "begotten" causes problems.
If God is Yahweh and then He brings forth The Son, who is in substance also God, that makes two God's
and will break the very first commandment which is the most important since they are listed in order of importance.

You might want to look up Theopholis and Tartillium. In any case I will post them tomorrow.
 
wondering said:
No. I'm speaking about the very beginning of the 100's.

I've read your ideas and I believe the word "begotten" causes problems.
If God is Yahweh and then He brings forth The Son, who is in substance also God, that makes two God's
and will break the very first commandment which is the most important since they are listed in order of importance.

You might want to look up Theopholis and Tartillium. In any case I will post them tomorrow.
Click to expand...
As I said in the previous thread, it's in the definition of God. Read the Nicene Creed and you'll see there is one God, not two. I'm not going to get into this again. Apparently it's against the rules.
 
Mustard Socks said:
I believe the bible. And I believe what Jesus said.
Yeshua? Is the Hebrew name Joshua. Translated it became the Greek, Jesus.
Click to expand...
I know that MS
Don't let my name mislead you.
This is not what I asked.
If Jesus is Yahweh
Then who is Yeshua, or Joshua or Jesus - take your pick, it's still the same person.

Wondering
 
wondering said:
I know that MS
Don't let my name mislead you.
This is not what I asked.
If Jesus is Yahweh
Then who is Yeshua, or Joshua or Jesus - take your pick, it's still the same person.
Click to expand...
Of course it is the same person.
Don't let the patience mislead you. The Bible reports, says, Jesus stated He was God. Various scriptures presented demonstrate the teaching that Jesus was God.
It isn't an argument. It is God's word.
I'm not striving to change your mind when you do not believe Jesus , Yeshua, Joshua, was God.
Rather, what you're taking issue with is the scriptures that teach through Jesus that Jesus stated He was God. And those other scriptures that attest to that fact.

You'll not therefore convince me to believe in you. I believe what scripture says. Jesus was God.
 
Mustard Socks said:
It was God who spoke to Moses. The Son was God .Matthew 1:23
Click to expand...
How does Mathew 1:23 prove anything?
It shows that Jesus, Yeshua (as those who knew
Him called Him, was and is indeed God.

But Yahweh spoke to Moses.
Did Yeshua ever tell anyone to take off their shoes in
His presence because they were walking on holy ground?
I think not.
 
wondering said:
How does Mathew 1:23 prove anything?
It shows that Jesus, Yeshua (as those who knew
Him called Him, was and is indeed God.

But Yahweh spoke to Moses.
Did Yeshua ever tell anyone to take off their shoes in
His presence because they were walking on holy ground?
I think not.
Click to expand...
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”


Source
 
Mustard Socks said:
Of course it is the same person.
Don't let the patience mislead you. The Bible reports, says, Jesus stated He was God. Various scriptures presented demonstrate the teaching that Jesus was God.
It isn't an argument. It is God's word.
I'm not striving to change your mind when you do not believe Jesus , Yeshua, Joshua, was God.
Rather, what you're taking issue with is the scriptures that teach through Jesus that Jesus stated He was God. And those other scriptures that attest to that fact.

You'll not therefore convince me to believe in you. I believe what scripture says. Jesus was God.
Click to expand...
So only YOU understand the scriptures. Theologians beginning in the early 100's were all wrong I suppose.
I also have no desire to change your mind . God is a big God and will not fit into a box.

Let me just say that I do believe Theopholus and Tartillian.
As do mainline churches.

When one wants to call himself a Christian, it is required that he adhere to Christian beliefs that have been followed from the beginning by those calling themselves by Christ's name.
Modern churches that make up new and incorrect theology should begin a new religion and not call it Christianity.

Jesus desired that we remain united so we are to follow the teachings of the Apostles and those who came immediately after them.
 
wondering said:
So only YOU understand the scriptures. Theologians beginning in the early 100's were all wrong I suppose.
I also have no desire to change your mind . God is a big God and will not fit into a box.

Let me just say that I do believe Theopholus and Tartillian.
As do mainline churches.

When one wants to call himself a Christian, it is required that he adhere to Christian beliefs that have been followed from the beginning by those calling themselves by Christ's name.
Modern churches that make up new and incorrect theology should begin a new religion and not call it Christianity.

Jesus desired that we remain united so we are to follow the teachings of the Apostles and those who came immediately after them.
Click to expand...
Jesus desired that we remain united and follow his teachings delivered to man from God through the son of man, the son of God.

Do not imply I am not a Christian again.
 
Mustard Socks said:
Jesus desired that we remain united and follow his teachings delivered to man from God through the son of man, the son of God.

Do not imply I am not a Christian again.
Click to expand...
Did I imply that?
Did you imply some posts back that those who do not agree with you do not understand scripture and are deaf and blind??
 
Mustard Socks said:
Jesus desired that we remain united and follow his teachings delivered to man from God through the son of man, the son of God.

Do not imply I am not a Christian again.
Click to expand...
There are those Christians that are demanding yet secretive.
I'm not saying that's good or bad but just a fact.
You are one of those Christians.
You force your way into conversations, try to insist you are correct, make demands of others, but are completely secretive as to who you are.
You don't allow people to look at your profile.
It sounds to me you are trying to hide something from the rest of us.
Yet you are demanding special rights that are generally given to others out of respect.

I'd like to tell you something I know from experience.
Respect sometimes needs to be earned, it is not automatic.
I would say that is the boat you have chosen to be in.
 
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