The trinity is a Roman Catholic concept?
You mean Protestants don't believe that God Father, God Jesus and God the Holy Spirit are one God??
Are they 3 Gods??
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Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?
You mean Protestants don't believe that God Father, God Jesus and God the Holy Spirit are one God??
Are they 3 Gods??
Jim Parker
Member
Ah cheese, Edith! Not another one!
The doctrine of the trinity was accepted by the entire church before there even was a RCC.
Christianity is trinitarian.
Everything else is not Christianity.
If your church denies the trinity, it's not a Christian church. It's similar, but it's not the real thing.
Get the real thing.
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Brother Mike
Guest
Protestants believe in Modalism, Symbolism, Oneness, Nicene Creed only trinity, or Athanasius creed version. All versions are different.
Early Church Writers before 325ad (Nicene Creed) were Oneness, modalism.
TERTULLIAN, CLEMENT, IGNATIUS, POLYCARP, HERMAS, so on........
If your really interested in this, i'll talk private since this is a dead horse.
Scripture a Church has to be Trinity or it's not Christian.
Scripture God is not subject to time and not part of His own creation.
The Church I went to has a form of a One God doctrine, it's not Trinity, but they claim it is.
Mike.
Mike,
Those who are orthodox Protestants do not believe in the heresies of Modalism, Symbolism or Oneness in their views of God.
Early church historian, Eusebius (ca. 260-340), wrote of the 'Heresy of Sabellius'. Sabellianism or Modalism was an early Christian heresy that Eusebius articulated in the third and fourth centuries.
Oz
Thanks Mike. But I don't need any lessons regarding the Trinity.
I was trying to make the poiint that Protestants DO believe in it, it's NOT a Roman Catholic concept.
I also reject Modalism. The 3 persons of God are separate but ONE, and exist at the same moment at all times.
The Trinity is both Catholic and Protestant. If you don't believe in the Trinity, you cannot call yourself a Christian.
This is for those reading along:
The first of the early church fathers recorded as using the word Trinity was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late second century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia) in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation. The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early third century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy.
Wondering
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Brother Mike
Guest
The Modern version of the Trinity says there are 3 Beings that are God but by the mystery of the Christian faith they are one.
The 325ad original says Jesus is of the same substance of the Father, God of God, by the same substance. The Holy Spirit was not mentioned in the original Nicene Creed, neither did they make Jesus lumped into some god machine. Jesus was God like the Father.
I am scripture only, I don't buy into doctrines of men.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(Joh 16:13-14)
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, He is not God as in the Same as God the Father. He does not speak of his own, which being the same as God the Father would speak and He glorify's Jesus, not himself. In Greek the Holy Spirit fits the definition of Theos as Satan does also, but He is not the Father, not the Son and does not magically become them at any point in time. Theos just means deity or someone that is immortal much like we are created in the image of God, like the Father.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ makes you a believe, a Christian. Nothing in scripture saying you have to believe in Trinity. You have to add to the Word of the eternal God and make that up, which is extremely dangerous and foolish.
The Holy Spirit Gives us Access to the Father. He is not the Father, nor does He mysteriously become the Father at any point.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
52 Verses Mention both the Father and Son as separate, not as some god system.
1Ti_5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Jesus was the Son of God, Like His father, has always been with the Father. There is a Father and Son, not some one god goo.
Joh_17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Compare line upon line, here a little there a little. I believe Scripture over any doctrines of men, always.
Mike.
I try not to get wrapped up in all that OzSpen. I don't really care. Most Modern western Church doctrines write their statement of faith far different than the Original Trinity doctrine, but still call it Trinity. Even the Church I go to now has a doctrine written much like this website with a hard Oneness slant...... God becomes 3 persons................ I think you will find those that claim Trinity don't have a clue what the original doctrines said or even understand it. I also find it's not all that important. As Paul said, for us, there is One Lord God, and One Lord Jesus Christ. A Father and son whom we give all glory to.
(1 Cor 6:8)
I'll stick with what Paul said.
God bless.
Mike.
The modern version of the Trinity does not say that "there are 3 beings that are God but by the mystery of the Christian faith they are one." That is a strawman. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there are three coequal, coeternal persons within the one being that is God. And that is in complete agreement with the Nicene Creed--one substance. This is what the Bible clearly and plainly reveals.
And so you do not understand then what it means to believe in Jesus, to believe in his name.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)
To believe in the name of the Son of God is to believe in all that he is. The use of "name" is significant as it "Express[es] the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title" (Vincent's Word Studies). Being that Jesus is the central figure of the entirety of Scripture, the one through whom we have salvation, it stands to reason that one must have a correct understanding of who Christ is for salvation.
It is possible that God will have mercy on those whom have never been taught any sort of Christology but to those whom are aware of the various views, I believe they will be accountable.
Nor do Trinitarians believe such.
Trinitarianism affirms the distinctness of the Father and the Son.
If, as you correctly say, the Son "has always been with the Father," then he too has existed for eternity past, an attribute of God alone, which makes him God in the same way the Father is God. At the same time, Trinitarians correctly affirm the clear biblical doctrine of monotheism--that there was, is, and only ever will be, one God.
You clearly do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity, so perhaps you should refrain from debating it.
Jim Parker
Member
That is false.
When I read those authors, I saw no modalism. Perhaps I missed something.
Please cite specific passages which clearly demonstrate their modalism.
I'd prefer you post your responses publicly so that anyone who has questions or comments can join the conversation.
Not everything that is true is found in scripture.
The Christian Church defined Christianity in response to the heresies which arose early on. They included modalism as well as Arianism, Nestorianism, Docetism, and a whole raft of other nonsense that the devil continues to suggest to gullible people.
The Christian Church can respond to all of them: "Been there; done that; rejected it."
If you have a different view, like the Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, etc., then that view is not Christian. It is heretical.
What church is that, please. I would like to read their "What We Believe" statement. (Assuming they post one.)
iakov the fool
Hi Mike,
I do want you to know that I've read the above and disagree wholeheartedly.
I've also read Free and OzSpen's replies and will defer to them since they agree exactly with me and I have neither the time nor inclination to proceed page after page which is what would be necessary for this discussion.
I've already told you that I do not agree with modalism.
I've posted a writing stating what Theophilus of Antioch believed in the late 100's. He defined God as the following and actually used the word Trinity:
God (Father, creator)
Word - Logos
Wisdom - Sophia
By the early 200's Tertullian expressed the Trinity perfectly as,
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
You won't accept this because it's not scriptural, accordiing to you.
We cannot subtract or add to scripture. There is to be no new revelation. However, existing revelation can be understood better with passing of time, as long as it's based on scripture. Jesus told the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So it IS scriptural.
The Holy Spirit is a person, it is Not God's spirit, in this case Jesus would have said - Baptize in the name of the Father and His spirit and in the name of the Son. This is not what Jesus said (in Mathew 28:19)
What modern version of the Trinity??? God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
There are not 2 or 3 persons with God in them.
There is ONE God within whom 3 "persons" exist. We don't even have the proper language to discuss the Trinity. Do you believe we could understand everything about God? I truly doubt it. In fact, if you could understand it really well, it means you really are Not understanding it at all.
Do you understand eternity? Do you understand how something could have no beginning and no end?
I doubt anyone does if they want to be honest.
We here all probably know what Theos means. So? I fail to understand what that has to do with anything. God, Theos, it's the same. Except theos could also be some kind of god, but there is only ONE God, the creator. But He is Theos.
For instance, you mention 1 Timothy 5:21. Have you ever considered that, Yes, Jesus is Lord. Jesus is Lord from the time He was born to Mary and entered into our dimension. But He is also LORD. The 2nd person of the Trinity, who is the Logos and existed from the beginning.
God Father is the Creator.
Jesus, Son, 2nd person is the thought, or mind of God.
Holy Spirit is the breath of God.
As far as believing in the Trinity for salvation - my personal belief is that if one calls on the name of Jesus, the one name by which we are saved, Acts 4:12.
that person will be saved if he believes that Christ died for him and rose from the dead.
Romans 10:9-11
Also, I'd like to say that Christianity has set a standard of beliefs which are to be followed.
A person or church cannot come up with their own interpretation of Christianity - it would lose all meaning.
It MUST be as the early church Fathers declared and Christians have always believed.
1 John 4:1-6
Wondering
Mike,
Please provide your evidence for this. Otherwise it carries no more weight than your assertion. I await your verification.
I wrote:
Why did I raise the issue of Modalism, Symbolism or Oneness? It was in response to your raising these topics.
Your response is:
It's too late to tell me you don't 'get wrapped up' in this. The facts are, Brother Mike, that you are already wrapped up in this because you raised the heresies of Modalism, Symbolism and Oneness. Then you gave a false view of the orthodox view of the Trinity.
You say, 'I don't really care'. That's not so. Go back to #51 where you stated, 'Protestants believe in Modalism, Symbolism, Oneness, Nicene Creed only trinity, or Athanasius creed version. All versions are different'. Please don't use subterfuge! You do care, otherwise you wouldn't have raised these heresies, but you didn't call them heresies. The early church did deal with them as heresies with the excellent summary statement of the Nicene Creed.
You state: 'Most Modern western Church doctrines write their statement of faith far different than the Original Trinity doctrine, but still call it Trinity'. This generic statement proves nothing as you provided not one example - not one! So it's your opinion that is not provided with documentation.
Mike, you state, 'Even the Church I go to now has a doctrine written much like this website with a hard Oneness slant...... God becomes 3 persons'. Please show me where the CFnet statement of faith promotes 'a hard Oneness slant' where 'God becomes 3 persons'. I want the evidence that CFnet promotes a Oneness, anti-Trinitarian perspective. I've never seen it, so I await your evidence.
Mike, your claim is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not important: 'I think you will find those that claim Trinity don't have a clue what the original doctrines said or even understand it. I also find it's not all that important. As Paul said, for us, there is One Lord God, and One Lord Jesus Christ. A Father and son whom we give all glory to. (1 Cor 6:8)'.
If you are not worshipping the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who each God and are not one and the same persons, then this is another God you worship.
The Trinity is core Christianity and you are promoting another God here with your comments.
Oz
Jim Parker
Member
The assaults against the Trinity generally
came from the neo-platonists who envisioned the Father as the Monad of Greek philosophy (religion) and the Son as an emanation from the Father/monad (Arius). The Son was, therefore, not eternal (per Arius' teaching that "there was a time when the son was not").
In 381, the second great council was convened at Constantinople to address the heretical teaching of Macedonius who taught that the Holy Spirit was not a "person" (hypostasis) but, simply a power of God and, as such, was inferior to the Father and the Son. (As is taught today by the JWs)
It is this council that defined the doctrine of the Holy Trinity be decreeing there is one God in three hypostases. ("persons") The council then added to the Nicene creed:
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified: Who spoke by the prophets.
In One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Today, when we refer to the Nicene Creed, we are actually referring to the "Nicene-Constantinopolan Creed."
The western church (Roman) later unilaterally (without a council) added the words "and the Son" (filoique) to the creed so as to read, "we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the son" and, thereby, placing the Holy Spirit in a position inferior to the Father and the Son. Today, that inclusion is regularly but inappropriately called "The Apostle's Creed" and the "Creed of Athanasius." There is no support for the addition of the filioque in either the apostles or Athanasius.
my two kopecks
iakov the fool
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
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Brother Mike
Guest
The concept of trinity promotes a response much like your own. "It's a core Christianity Concept" It's not, and in fact not even in scripture but some very suspect scriptures like 1John 5:7.
CFnet:
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
One God that manifest himself as 3 or some other is Apostolic Oneness 1914.
Trinity the Modern Athanasius Creed says there are 3 who are equally God that are 1. 1 John 5:7 even says 3 are 1.
Church of God (Which I decided by direction to go and visit at least for now)
- In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
One That exist in 3 persons, or 1 that is 3 is modalist or slanted oneness again.
As I said, I don't really care what someone believes. It's a none issue for me. Jesus was with God the Father before the World was even made, has always been the Son of God, and is not His Father. I have lots of scriptures to back that and not interested in the many different versions of the trinity doctrine.
Be blessed.
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Brother Mike
Guest
Trinity starts with 3 whom are co-equal but become 1 by the mystery of Christian faith. If you start with 1 which 3 manifest that is not Trinity. However, as I said. 52 times the Father and Son are mentioned in the same scripture meaning there is actually a Son and actually a Father and the Holy Spirit belongs to God is not God, does not speak of His own, but is the Spirit of God on Earth.
MY SPIRIT. The HOLY SPIRIT Belongs to God. He is not 'a' god, but God's Spirit He pours out and fills with.
Some of many examples.
Pro_1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Isa_30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
Isa_44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
Mat_12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
As I said, everything must match every single scripture perfectly, I don't care what other men have made up or what creeds they designed.
Be blessed.
Mike.
Jim Parker
Member
You did not respond to my request.
You said that modalism was taught by "TERTULLIAN, CLEMENT, IGNATIUS, POLYCARP, HERMAS, so on........"
I asked for the specific citations to support your statement.
You did not do that.
You gave me the canned responsed that you have been taught to recite when your modalist heresy is challenged.
If you cannot produce support for you claim that TERTULLIAN, CLEMENT, IGNATIUS, POLYCARP, HERMAS, so on........ were all modalists then you should retract that statement.
And if you are not interested in the Trinity Doctrine then you are not interested in authentic Christian doctrine.
Just because the Trinity is a mystery which we do not fully understand is not proof that it is false and it certainly does not suggest that you know better than the teaching of the Christian Church. It's just another unfortunate example of those who imagine they are more able to understand theology, based on, "It's right there in my Bible." than the multiple thousands of real theologians who have made theology their life's work over the past 2000 years.
You are preaching non-Christian heresy.
That puts your belief OUTSIDE the definition of "Christianity."
If that's what your church teaches,I urge you to leave and find a real Christian church.
jus sayin
iakov the fool
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
Mike,
You have distorted the CFnet statement of faith. You stated, 'Even the Church I go to now has a doctrine written much like this website with a hard Oneness slant...... God becomes 3 persons' (#66).
Then you quote CFnet SoF, 'We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'.
Then you claim your interpretation: 'One God that manifest himself as 3 or some other is Apostolic Oneness 1914'. This is false. The one God who manifests himself in three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is the Trinitarian God who is the one exegeted in Scripture and promoted by orthodox Christianity - including myself.
This is NOT the heresy of Modalism where God manifests himself in three modes of existence. I suggest that you become better informed on the differences between the heresy of Modalism and orthodox Trinitarian Christianity.
You claim: 'I don't really care what someone believes. It's a none issue for me'. That's not what you are telling me here. You are defending your Modalistic view of God. Paul, the apostle, told you that you should care about what people believe and preach. Take a read of Acts 17:11 (ESV).
Oz
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This is another false statement. When will you quit misrepresenting the teaching of the Trinity?
See: Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?
Oz
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Brother Mike
Guest
For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one
But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
Here are parts of your trinity concept. If you have a more early creed, I would be interested in it. The Nicene 325 and revised edition of the 381 are a bit different.
You must be Roman Catholic also. It's part of your doctrine.
Now if you have a doctrine much newer then it's stolen from the originals that came out of Rome, I am not interested in the many new plagiarized doctrines.
Actually if you want to talk about something useful, I am in for that also.
Mike.
Why have you plagiarised some of this from The Athanasian Creed and not given credit?
I do want to talk about something useful - biblical, orthodox Christianity. I affirm the Trinity and not the heretical Modalism you have been advocating.
Both Roman Catholics and Protestants affirm the Trinity.
Oz
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Brother Mike
Guest
I am not a fan of Modalism either. Jesus has always been here, God Gave him glory before the earth was even made (John 17) and I am not lumping my Big Brother into a god machine. There is one Lord God and One Lord Jesus Christ, and that is what Scripture say over and over.
Now if you want some Trinity concept, then great. Most have some form of One God doctrine no matter how you do the math. What is wrong is to allow a Doctrine to cause strife. It's what split the AOG Church in 1928.
Anyway, God never changes, back to topic.
Mike.
You are not a fan of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity either.