Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[th1b.taylor]

testify to this visible worldly knowledge to help reveal who God and His voice is besides how it was created.

Stone cold heresy! God has always been and no part of the Triune God Head is created.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Gods firstborn would be a being not an animal or a people or word or radiance.
I don't agree with your logic. Jesus has no beginning because He is Gods radiance. Jesus is Spirit a living being not a word or radiance. And the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The Father preexisted His firstborn therefore God was before Jesus was and the fullness of Gods power and wisdom was given to the Son. In that Jesus is all that the Father is. A "Son" promised and a "Son" given who is called Mighty God. As I stated before my assumption is that fullness was given at the same point that Jesus's spirit was formed by the Father. At some point in history before the world began.

So we will continue to disagree in part.

The Father in regard to Jesus=>"This is my son...." There is only one God the Father. And One Lord Jesus Christ.

You might want to rethink this position in light of the first five verses of the Gospel of John.

 

[Randy]

And vice versa.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.



Jesus, Imageo Dei. Heb. 1:3

That doesn't address the question.
To be more accurate with your post from the Lord Himself. (He should know)
Rev 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne

You note Jesus's authority. I agree but also note the one who gave Him that authority. The One He calls His God and our God.

Is Jesus God?
yes=>He is ALL that the Father is. The exact image of the wisdom and power of God. As I read the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.
No=>He has always been the Son (firstborn)
He never dies. (He lives by the living Father in Him-a faithful high priest with indestructible life in Himself and can save forever those who come to Him by faith)

Matt 28
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Why do Gods who always were need authority (and there is only one true God). The Father is greater. Now a Son does receive an inheritance from His Father. As firstborn Jesus is the heir.

Randy

 

[Randy]

You might want to rethink this position in light of the first five verses of the Gospel of John.

Gods firstborn would be a living being and such a being would state "before Abraham was born I Am"
John is cohesive with what I believe and state about the Son. The Father spoke in Him. An Jesus spoke to the people those "words of the Father" Hebrews 1
The Son was with God in the beginning and the creation was made through Him. And nothing was set in place in heaven without Him. Jesus is first in everything except the One He calls His God and our God. The one who gave Jesus life and power and wisdom and glory and all authority. The God who states I have installed my King...Psalm 2 People may object with Gods chosen one but in will be in vain. (not meaning you) But those who object should consider Jesus is the "good" Shepard who loves and their eternity of (life) is only found in Him.
Which us when being murdered would state "Father forgive them for they no not what they do" Now thats Love.

Randy

 

[WIP]

Jesus has always been the Son. He is not His Father.

So I equate (as you state) the Son, (His spirit-not devine in itself) plus the fullness given to dwell in Him =ALL that the Father is. The exact image of the wisdom and power of God. All that the Father is.

Randy

That isn't what I asked.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Gods firstborn would be a living being and such a being would state "before Abraham was born I Am"

God the Father is a being but has never been seen by a human-being. So is the Holy Spirit, the third Being and as was the Son, the second Being before He humbled Himself and was born, begotten, as a man.

Important stuff.

 

[smaller]

That doesn't address the question.

Of course it does. You did read the Hebrews statement of fact, God calling the Son, GOD?

Why then are you trying to make or infer a divide that can't be made is the real question?

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

There is no ambiguity. There is no division available. God Himself is "expressed" in His Son, His Own Image.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col. 1:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Image of God has always existed, as God.

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

[GodsVoice]

Stone cold heresy! God has always been and no part of the Triune God Head is created.

You will believe what you were programmed to believe. If you understood how we were created, then all the prophecies in the OT would make sense to you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You will believe what you were programmed to believe. If you understood how we were created, then all the prophecies in the OT would make sense to you.

The prophesies of both testaments make sense to me just as the words you are pushing here as heretical. God has not Programmed anything. we do not run on software.

 

[Free]

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. A God who always was would be that fullness. The Father. We also note in Hebrews "when God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him" and "....the assembly of the Firstborn.."

Now we are at a point where we are going in circles. We continue to repeat and repeat and yet we still disagree.

We are going in circles because you keep repeating yourself but are continually failing to address the points I am making. I have shown how "firstborn" has different meanings in the Bible, including at least one that has nothing whatsoever to do with "coming into existence." It is used to speak of preeminence and the position and rights of one who is firstborn. And this fits perfectly with everything else we read of the Son.

Your continual use of "firstborn" to mean that there was a time when the Son did not exist, completely contradicts not only what other passages say of the Son, but even the immediate contexts of those uses. And you never address that contradiction.

As I stated I can completed agree with the Apostles Creed. Note a belief in Father and Son and Gods Holy Spirit. We discuss the relationship.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;

And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;*
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic** church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

**universal

I, too, believe in this creed as well as the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

 

[Free]

One thing I struggle with is for those that do not believe in the Trinity, how do they hold Jesus in such a high place of honor and still not violate the 1st Commandment and not have other gods? If Jesus is not God then we are in serious trouble.

Which brings us back to an earlier post that wasn't addressed:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-and-does-it-matter.67346/page-2#post-1265216

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you elaborate? It seems you have three beings that are God and yet you say there is one God. Can you explain this for us?

Sure. But I can't make anyone understand. (particularly when someone doesn't want to understand...)
(1) There is only one God.
Isa 44:6 (NKJV) “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last. Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 44:8 ..........Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.' ”
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me.
Isa 45:14 Thus says the LORD:..........
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other; There is no other God.' ”
Isa 45:21.......... And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

(2) That Father is God.
John 6:27, Rom 1:7; 15:6 ...
(3) The Logos is God (John 1:1) Who became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14) as the Son of God. (Luke 1:32, 35)
(4) The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)
Thus the Bible identifies the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as God.

The Bible also describes them as three different "persons." (Probably not the best description but we're stuck with the limitations of human language and the limitations of our experience.)It is the word we use to render the Greek word "HYPOSTASIS" into English.
John 14:26, 15:26; 16:7

The Christian faith is Trinitarian.
If anyone's faith is not Trinitarian then it is not Christian.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)






DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sure. But I can't make anyone understand. (particularly when someone doesn't want to understand...)
(1) There is only one God.
Isa 44:6 (NKJV) “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last. Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 44:8 ..........Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.' ”
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me.
Isa 45:14 Thus says the LORD:..........
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other; There is no other God.' ”
Isa 45:21.......... And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

(2) That Father is God.
John 6:27, Rom 1:7; 15:6 ...
(3) The Logos is God (John 1:1) Who became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14) as the Son of God. (Luke 1:32, 35)
(4) The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)
Thus the Bible identifies the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as God.

The Bible also describes them as three different "persons." (Probably not the best description but we're stuck with the limitations of human language and the limitations of our experience.)It is the word we use to render the Greek word "HYPOSTASIS" into English.
John 14:26, 15:26; 16:7

The Christian faith is Trinitarian.
If anyone's faith is not Trinitarian then it is not Christian.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)






DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Jim there is no better way to teach the Trinity, it must be accepted by faith and without that faith, Salvation is not, period. Over the years many have proclaimed they can prove the Trinity... every one of them failed. It is a matter of God said it and because He did, I believe it!

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus has always been the Son. He is not His Father.

That's the truth.
But it is not the whole truth.
Before Jesus was the Son of God, He was already God the Logos who was with God in the beginning.(John 1:1)

Jesus, either as Logos or Son, has always been God.
(Heb 1:8 NKJV) But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.



iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)






DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim there is no better way to teach the Trinity, it must be accepted by faith and without that faith, Salvation is not, period. Over the years many have proclaimed they can prove the Trinity... every one of them failed. It is a matter of God said it and because He did, I believe it!

The Trinity is a mystery which is beyond our understanding.
But it can be logically deduced by the fact that Scripture says there is only one God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are that one God.
So the three must be the one.
How???
Maybe we'll get it when we see Him.

jim

 

[chessman]

As I stated before my assumption is that fullness was given at the same point that Jesus's spirit was formed by the Father. At some point in history before the world began.

Jesus' spirit wasn't formed by the Father at some assumed point in history before the world began. That idea is contrary to what the Bible says.

John 1:3 (LEB) All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.​

Not one thing was formed or came into being apart from the Word.

Jesus has no beginning because He is Gods radiance.

The Son was, is, always was, and always will be the radiance of God's glory. No Son means no glory prior to this assumption of yours.

 

[Randy]

Jesus' spirit wasn't formed by the Father at some assumed point in history before the world began. That idea is contrary to what the Bible says.

John 1:3 (LEB) All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.​

Not one thing was formed or came into being apart from the Word.



The Son was, is, always was, and always will be the radiance of God's glory. No Son means no glory prior to this assumption of yours.

I agree in part and disagree in part.
The creation (genesis) was made through the Son and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him. Those things were done after Jesus's spirit was formed by the Father by whom all things came.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Of course it does. You did read the Hebrews statement of fact, God calling the Son, GOD?

Why then are you trying to make or infer a divide that can't be made is the real question?

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

There is no ambiguity. There is no division available. God Himself is "expressed" in His Son, His Own Image.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col. 1:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Image of God has always existed, as God.

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

I have addressed all of this already. "Is Jesus God" Yes and No depending on context. You did note in Hebrews (therefore God your God)
The Father has always been Jesus's God. After all Jesus is His firstborn.

 

[Randy]

We are going in circles because you keep repeating yourself but are continually failing to address the points I am making. I have shown how "firstborn" has different meanings in the Bible, including at least one that has nothing whatsoever to do with "coming into existence." It is used to speak of preeminence and the position and rights of one who is firstborn. And this fits perfectly with everything else we read of the Son.

Your continual use of "firstborn" to mean that there was a time when the Son did not exist, completely contradicts not only what other passages say of the Son, but even the immediate contexts of those uses. And you never address that contradiction.


I, too, believe in this creed as well as the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

Very close to that but Jesus is firstborn.
So we disagree in part. I would state Jesus is from the Father. He is Gods firstborn therefore He (His Spirit) was formed by the Father first and the fullness of God was given to dwell in Him. The fullness was not made. (Father) And so though Jesus has a beginning He has no ending. He lives by the living Father. I also don't view the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord as a distinct person (different mind will and spirit) from the "Father". In fact the mind of the Spirit is seen as the Father in scripture. The Father is in the Son (His Spirit) dwells with Jesus's spirit. Only the Fathers Spirit is Devine in itself. So Jesus and the Father are one but each has their own Spirit.

eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;

 

[Randy]

The Trinity is a mystery which is beyond our understanding.
But it can be logically deduced by the fact that Scripture says there is only one God and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are that one God.
So the three must be the one.
How???
Maybe we'll get it when we see Him.

jim

It can be read how but not with your premise. As firstborn Jesus was with God before the world began and therefore "about the Son in the beginning of laying the foundations of the world doesn't state your cause that Jesus can't be Gods firstborn. You did read that all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him and that to those who God has called both Jews and gentiles (salvation context) Jesus is the wisdom and power of God? (radiance of Gods being)

Hebrews
"When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him"
Jesus is not a "word". The Son is a living being. Jesus has a name "the word of God" as we read God spoke in Him and Jesus spoke to the people those very words. Those words belonged to the Father. Word of God=Word of the Father.
Hebrews 1
I believe this:God spoke in Jesus (gave Him words which Jesus spoke to mankind) and all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Jesus and God created the creation through the Son.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Randy