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Dave Slayer
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Is there a middle ground between Arminianism and Calvinism?
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Dave Slayer said:
No. God is in complete control over the universe. MT. 10: 29, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not on of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father." Man was born with a sinful nature that only the Holy Spirit can transform.
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Reformed
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Dave Slayer said:
They share much in common, primarily a commitment to the gospel, but on their soteriological distinctives, no, there is no middle ground. Either God unconditionally elected sinners, or he conditionally elected sinners. Either sinners are totally depraved, or they are not totally depraved. Etc.
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Adullam said:
I don't know of any Arminians who trust in Jacob Arminius for salvation, nor do I know any Calvinists who trust in John Calvin for salvation. Arminianism is error, but not damnably so. It is heterodox, not heresy.
mutzrein said:
Because as Jesus tells us in MT. 7:21-23, there will be many who call him Lord who aren't true Christians. It's they who divide us and it's they who deceive us. Jesus tells us to watch our for wolves in sheep's clothing. So we need to be able to spot them.
mutzrein said:
The wolves are the Phraisees who claimed to be righteous of their own free will which is called "self-righteousness." The sheep are the born again Christians who know that righteousness only comes from God. The former comes from the sin of pride, the latter comes from the humility of the Spirit. The former is Arminanism, the latter is Calvinism. ;)
mutzrein said:
The bible. ;) It was written by the same Spirit that born again Christians have. So born again Christians will always agree with the bible.
As I pointed out, Arminians are Pharisees. So they will disagree with God even though they claim to believe Him. ;)
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mutzrein said:
Faith in what? Faith in whom? Your answer to these questions indicate your doctrine. Doctrine is truth. So yes, salvation does hinge on doctrine.
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Rebel
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There is truth and there are lies. It doesn't matter what man calls it, we need only concern ourselves with what the bible says. ;)
I am not Heidi, to whom this question was addressed. I doubt this is a safe place to "tell my story," by I am going to anyway. I must be crazy to do this in this apologetics forum, but I am going to anyway.mutzrein said:
I must admit that 3 or 4 years ago, I was inconsistent. I was one of many people in Arminian churches in which it was my tradition to say Calvinists were wrong. I was not so harshly opposed to Calvinism as some who think it heresy, but I looked upon Calvinists with suspicion. I say I was inconsistent because I accepted unconditional election, but not limited atonement, or many other Calvinist doctrines of soteriology. As many Arminians, I redefined "Total Depravity" to mean that nobody is perfect, everyone sins sometime. I now recognize that Total Depravity means that unregenerate flesh cannot bring forth faith. I still believed in "free will." Yet I would not have defined or salvation as totally outside Gods control. I was subconsciously making an effort to harmonize unconditional election with other arminian concepts. I was one of those Arminians that called myself a "4 point Calvinist." Limited Atonement was my great bugaboo. I was also fuzzy on irresistible grace because I placed faith before regeneration in the order of salvation. A Calvinist will recognize the above as an Arminian system of soteriology. I was an Arminian who accepted unconditional election. I did not believe that election was made on the basis of faith. I knew that redefines what the term "foreknowledge" means.
To become a Calvinist was a great struggle for me, because I had no Calvinist friends. I had no positive influence, no guidance except for some books. More about this later. The only positive force that moved me to work harder on the issue was the very bad behavior of some pretty nasty Arminian people in my Church. I dont wish to talk about their specific behaviors, but their behaviors are still shocking to me. I still marvel at such bad leadership. I know the behavior of these people was the biggest influence that drove me to study the issue and started me on my trail toward Calvinism. I left that Church and went to a different arminian Church. This 2nd Church is where my parents are members, and I was once a member. It is another Arminian Church. There was one Calvinist young man who went to the new Church who was a friend. While his fellowship was a good thing, I did not get my Calvinism from him. As I returned to the Church of my parents (the 2nd arminian Church), I began move toward Calvinism. I used to meet often with the pastor. Once he gave me a booklet "The Dangers of Calvinism" from a church in Connecticut. I began to react, and complained that the book set up a straw man, and did not recognize the difference between hyper-Calvinism, and classic Calvinism. As I moved toward Calvinism, the differences of opinion between the pastor and me grew. I have no complaints about this pastor, he was a gentleman, and treated me with kindness and courtesy. The congregation treated me well also. I still love this Arminian congregation, and they show affection toward me. To this day I have great respect for this congregation and consider them by beloved brothers in the Lord. The problem is that they were allowing me to teach, and as I was moving toward Calvinism, I was teaching Calvinism in their Arminian Church. Some of their people were being influenced by me. A few others were moving toward Calvinism as I taught (only a few). I was not even a member there. I felt uncomfortable with the whole thing and fears problems. I decided to move on and to seek the fellowship of a Calvinist Church.
Now lets backtrack to the first arminian Church I left. The one with the bad behavior. I noticed that the hyper-Arminian people were carrying books by Dave Hunt. I looked up David Hunt on the internet and found "Debating Calvinism." The book was coauthored by some Calvinist guy that I never heard of named James White. At first, I did not like the book. It irritated me that Dave Hunt made such a shallow attack on Calvinism. I thought someone out there must be better able to attack Calvinism. I found out about the fact that Norman Geisler wrote "Chosen but Free" and this same guy, James White answered it in "Potters Freedom." I bought both books and read them. After reading both books I realized...
*** There are Calvinist verses and Arminian verses.
*** Arminians do not provide counter exegesis on Calvinist verses. A few might try... George Bryson attempted to counter Whites John 6 arguments, but fails horribly. Dave Hunt does not even bother to make the effort of counter exegesis. Hunt was a great disappointment. Geisler was little better.
*** Calvinist do provide counter exegesis on Arminian verses. Any one can look at the big three verses that Geisler uses. They can see much counter exegesis is provided by many Calvinist writers. This counter exegesis is ignored by Arminians.
Now I was introduced to Dave Hunt in the first Arminian Church. I did not read that much until I arrived and the better (2nd Arminian Church). It was at the 2nd Church that I moved theologically into Calvinism.
I am going to admit, that while I have now been a Calvinist for a little over 2 years now, I remain unsettled. My wife and I have not accepted membership in any Church. There are no Calvinist Churches in our area. We now travel 1/2 hour to attend the Church we fellowship in. My wife and I still have more decisions to make and could use plenty of prayer and Gods guidance and help.
As to the theme of this thread... I do not see middle ground between Calvinism or Arminianism. That assumption is based on the thought that you can choose to believe 4 of the 5 points in TULIP. I was once in that so called Middle ground. It is not a true middle ground, it is just inconsistent arminianism. I now recognize that all 5 points of TULIP go together and they are interdependent. The cannot really be logically or scripturally separated. The typical 4 point Calvinist will do just what I did. They will accept unconditional election, and redefine a few other points in TULIP, and deny limited atonement. Such a person is arminian in the essence of his soteriology. It leads not to a penal-substitutionary theory of atonement, but to a Governmental theory of atonement.
There are very few Calvinists. But Jesus tells us there are also very few of his chosen too. So let's not talk about what people like Calvin or Arminuis say, let's talk about what the bible says which is why I've been quoting scripture alone, not Calvin. The cost of standing up for God, not man is high as Jesus tells us it will be. We will be trampled on by the majority.
Here's one for you: Jesus said in John 15:3, "Apart from me you can do nothing." Nothing, nothing, nothing.
Also notice in John 15:1-2, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit while every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
Jesus is acknowledging that God is in complete control of the fruit which even Jesus bears. God cuts off what's unfruitful and prunes what is fruitful. John 14:28, "The words I say to you are not just my own, rather it is the Father living in me that is doing the work."
Now that's the Son of God talking. Yet puny little man says; "Wait a minute here, I'm doing something good by my own free will.
I've got some power here." Wrong. Christ's power comes from God, as he himself acknowledges, so the power of born again Christians comes from God as well, not man. Jesus is exemplifying complete and total humility by giving credit to our Father in heaven for everything he does. So it's blasphemy for man to try to take credit for what belongs to God alone. Claiming that we have a righteous nature is not only false, it's self-righteousness which is the yeast of the Pharisees.
Here's one for you: Jesus said in John 15:3, "Apart from me you can do nothing." Nothing, nothing, nothing.
Also notice in John 15:1-2, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit while every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
Jesus is acknowledging that God is in complete control of the fruit which even Jesus bears. God cuts off what's unfruitful and prunes what is fruitful. John 14:28, "The words I say to you are not just my own, rather it is the Father living in me that is doing the work."
Now that's the Son of God talking. Yet puny little man says; "Wait a minute here, I'm doing something good by my own free will.
I've got some power here." Wrong. Christ's power comes from God, as he himself acknowledges, so the power of born again Christians comes from God as well, not man. Jesus is exemplifying complete and total humility by giving credit to our Father in heaven for everything he does. So it's blasphemy for man to try to take credit for what belongs to God alone. Claiming that we have a righteous nature is not only false, it's self-righteousness which is the yeast of the Pharisees.
Adullam
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- Mar 28, 2009
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Heidi said:
We are saved by agreeing with a certain doctrine? We are accepted by you by agreeing with you. That is what you are really saying here. You sit in God's seat and judge from what you perceive as a lofty position. Be very careful! When did you become the authority on who is saved in the church or not? You have made yourself a judge. I see your pride and lack of grace....while asserting yourself as an expert in grace technology. Just how far removed from the truth is one who has a true or false questionnaire determine our fate?
Adullam
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- Mar 28, 2009
- 2,175
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Heidi said:There are very few Calvinists. But Jesus tells us there are also very few of his chosen too. So let's not talk about what people like Calvin or Arminuis say, let's talk about what the bible says which is why I've been quoting scripture alone, not Calvin. The cost of standing up for God, not man is high as Jesus tells us it will be. We will be trampled on by the majority.
Here's one for you: Jesus said in John 15:3, "Apart from me you can do nothing." Nothing, nothing, nothing.
Also notice in John 15:1-2, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit while every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
Jesus is acknowledging that God is in complete control of the fruit which even Jesus bears. God cuts off what's unfruitful and prunes what is fruitful. John 14:28, "The words I say to you are not just my own, rather it is the Father living in me that is doing the work."
Now that's the Son of God talking. Yet puny little man says; "Wait a minute here, I'm doing something good by my own free will.
You show your lack of understanding of basic righteousness here. God doesn't force us to do what is right...He enables us. You are simply seeking to be irresponsible for your own actions. We call this tendency...immaturity.
Then you're calling Jesus immature because he gives complete credit to God for everything he does.
Jesus didn't choose to be conceived by the Holy Spirit. God elected him to do so. Jesus also knows God's power and you don't. We call self-righteousness the yeast of the Pharisees. ;) I have no choice but to acknowledge my sins. But I can only do it once Jesus has opened my eyes. So I have a question for you:
If someone knocks you over the head and heals you of blindness, adn you open your eyes (which is involuntary) then why do you want to take credit for what your healer does? :o
That's what happened to Paul. Paul didn't seek God, God sought him and opened his eyes. Nowhere does Paul say he freely chose to believe by his own free will. that comes from the sinful nature of man. So your beliefs are not scriptural which is why you rarely if ever quote scripture. My beliefs come from scripture as I have demonstrated over and over again.