My responce was because you actually did quote Revelation to validate your position. What I am saying is that there is NO Church doctrine in the Revelation.
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Is There Any New Church doctrine in the Book of Revelation ?
- Thread starter Rodger
- Start date
- Apr 22, 2011
- 30,952
- 16,442
Do we go by the various church doctrines that are out there, or do we go by the doctrines of Christ that have been penned by the Prophets and Apostles in what God gave and inspired them to write?
Church doctrine in the book of Revelation contains that of the instruction to the seven Churches, focus on faithfulness, and the later parts of Revelation deals with the end times and the judgement of nations as all of this is found throughout the OT and NT which are the doctrines of Christ.
If you want to disagree then so be it.
- Thread starter
- #3
It really is not a matter of me disagreeing with anyone. It is simply a theological fact that The book of Revelation does not contain specific church doctrine.
If you believe that is not the case then I would encourage you to post what those would be.
It should also be noted that the 7 churches in chapter 2 and 3 are a;; Jesish assemblies and not Christian churches and the language is wholly Jewish.
The focus of the book is God's judgment and salvation during a specific time peroid.
- Apr 22, 2011
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The word of God is from the beginning of time unto the end of days here on Earth.
Biblical doctrine by definition means the teachings of God from Genesis to Revelation being that of the word of God for instruction, wisdom and understanding. These are the doctrines that first came to the Prophets and the Apostles, the Jews first and also to the Gentiles. The Apostles were the first to be called Christians in Antioch and sent out to establish the Christian Churches.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Act 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
- Thread starter
- #5
I fully accept and teach everything you posted but. I really do not know why you choose to post those Scriptures. None of them speak to the question I posed to you concerning that there is NO Specific Church doctrine in the Revelation. I agree with every single Scripture you posted as they are all the Word of God but......
Again, "IF there is a Church doctrine in the Revelation, please post it for me".
You said......
"The word of God is from the beginning of time unto the end of days here on Earth."
Absolutely true and that is not the focus here!!!
The seven “churches” in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation are Jewish assemblies, not Christian churches. The language associated with them is wholly Jewish; no Pauline or Church language is present. Everything the Lord said was associated with Israel and concerned God’s judgment and how to obtain salvation during those seven years.
Therefore, no Church language of evidence of the Church is present in Revelation.
So again, the book of the Revelation does not contain specific Church doctrine, and if you believe it does, please post the Chapter and verse!
May the Lord bless you.
- Apr 22, 2011
- 30,952
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Does not Revelation teach us the things that Christ Jesus gave to teach us through John?
- Thread starter
- #7
NO it does not!
The Revelation is all about the nation of Israel and the Jews as they go through judgment. It is called the Tribulation Period or Jacobs Trouble.
Therefore, no Church language of evidence of the Church is present in Revelation. In fact after the letters to the 7 churches, the literal word Church does not appear again in the book there is no reference to church or churches on this earth but only in heaven.
"Therefore, no Church language of evidence of the Church is present in Revelation". Not true. The letters are to the "seven churches in Asia". Chapters 1-3 is directed towards the church. Chapter 4 is most likely where the rapture happens. Much of Revelation is God dealing with the Jews, but the church starts Revelation----and in the last 3 chapters the church is very evident when the New Jerusalem appears. The Lord Jesus has much to say to the church in the book of Revelation---in fact---it says "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." (Rev. 1: 3)
If we followed your advice we would ignore Revelation 1:3 and say "oh, Revelation is for the Jews---nothing to see there". And how untrue would such a statement be.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Revelation was given to John in visions as prophecies that had their beginnings in the Old Testament, being fulfilled in the New Testament and yet much to be fulfilled in future events before the great and terrible day of the Lords return.
Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.
I tried to show you what the Doctrine of Christ is by definition as being all the books in the Bible, but as one leads a horse to water you can not make them drink.
This is a good conversation you and I are having, but If you want to start a new discussion on this please do so and tag me into it as we are getting way off topic and straying away from the OP.
- Thread starter
- #10
Everything you said is true and I agree 100%.
However, as I stated, none of that relates to "Church Doctrine". There is NO church doctrine in the Revelation.
Everything in Revelation concerns Israel and the nations. The Tribulation is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” and God’s judgment of the nations.
Paul wrote the Church, the body is Christ, would not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord Therefore, no Church language of evidence of the Church is present in Revelation.
- Thread starter
- #11
I understand your comment, however, all the information given to those 7 churches had already been established by the Apostles in their epistles. Anything in the Revelation that pertains to Church Doctrine was then only being repeated.
The call from Christ was the same to each of the 7 churches....which was a command and not doctrine ----
"Remember-----Repent------Repeat"!
- Apr 22, 2011
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Church doctrine found in the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor runs the whole book of Revelation in how we as Christians are to conduct ourselves in the face of all the devastation's we will face, but being faithful through all that must come first, even if we lose our own lives, there is nothing so horrible that will keep us from our love for the Lord being a faithful servant until Christ comes for us.
How do you know they are not Christian churches ?
- Thread starter
- #14
I am uncomfortable in debating this with you. It seems that we are involved in in circular conversation.
I feel that I need to remind you that there is NO Christian Church spoken to or mention after Chapter 3. The Church and the literal word "Church" is not seem after the last verse in Chapter 3.
The Revelation is not about Church doctrine for the church as there is NO church on the earth beginning in Chapter 4:1.
The Revelation is all about the Nation of Israel, The Jews and God dealing with them in the last 7 years of what we call the Tribulation Peroid.
- Thread starter
- #15
The book of Revelation concerns Israel and non-believers, and not the Church. As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1.
I should be noted, that The seven churches were composed of Jews who believed in Jesus Christ, and they received doctrine for the nation of Israel from an apostle to Israel about the kingdom prophesied in the Old Testament.
"Asia" was a Roman province, only about the size of Iowa, located in what is now the western part of Turkey. The book of Revelation contains doctrine for the kingdom dispensation and was written to the early Jews who believed in Christ rather than to the partly Jew but mostly Gentile churches to which Paul preached the revealed mysteries of this grace dispensation.
- Apr 22, 2011
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I'm sorry you can not see that the whole NT, including the last book, is about the church of Christ Jesus (Not the Church of the LATTER SAINTS) that started on the day of Pentecost with the doctrines of Christ (the word of God) that he gave to first the Jews and then the Gentiles that are grafted into the branch as the root is Christ Jesus with many members as there is no more Jew or Gentile, but one body of Christ with He being the head of the body. Romans 1:16-17, Romans 11:11.
Was it not an angel sent by Jesus to give these visions to John for instructions, edification and counsel in God's righteousness in how we are to conduct ourselves being the body of Christ, especially during those things that are yet to come per the visions John was given? Rev 1:1-3
The (4) Gospels are written before the Church Age, yet the Holy Spirit includes them in the New Testament. The New Testament (every book) is used by the CHURCH for instruction in righteousness. Why did the Holy Spirit include the book of Revelation in the New Testament if it isn't written to and for the Church?
- Apr 22, 2011
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Where in Rev 4:1-2 does it say anything about a pretrib Rapture of the Church? All I read is that John was in the Spirit while on the Isle of Patmos being held there as a prisoner for teaching the word of God when he received these visions from the angel Jesus sent to him and not literally taken up to Heaven as that would come against what Jesus said in John 3:13.
Rev 1:1-11
God gave these revelations to Jesus first and then he passed it onto John through a ministering angel through visions as God reveals those things that have to come to pass before the return of Jesus. The revelations are for the Church in John’s time plus every generation from that time on until Jesus returns in the air to gather up his Bride to the clouds as they receive their new glorified bodies and meet Jesus in the air, 1Corinthians 15:5-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.
The seven churches represent all who are in Christ and He in them from generation to generation. Only through that of Jesus being the final sacrifice for the atonement of sin can we become a royal priesthood joined to him, 1 Peter 2:9. Jesus comes in the clouds and every eye will see him, even those who have rejected him and many will loudly mourn his coming as they have never repented of their sin and now the door of salvation will be closed forever. God is never changing and his word will never come back void, Isaiah 55:11.
John was the last Apostle alive of the original twelve Disciples at the time of his writing these letters to the Church. John was with John the Baptist until that time he was called to be part of the twelve Disciples of Jesus. He was called the beloved of Jesus as he left John the Baptist to follow after Jesus. John was the only Disciple that witnessed the crucifixion of Christ as all the other Disciples fled when Jesus was arrested as they were in fear they would be arrested also, Matthew 25:56, but after Jesus ascended to heaven they were all made Apostles of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit that guided them.
John was the Apostle to the Church in Ephesus where he lived and wrote four epistles, John, First, Second and Third John. He was exiled to the isle of Patmos by the Roman Emperor Domitian for preaching the word of God in the Roman province of Asia where the seven Churches were located. It is said that John was in his nineties when he was exiled and probably released around 97 AD after Domitian died. John was born around 6 AD and died around 100 AD.
John was in the Spirit (being in the Spirit means being in the presence of Gods Spirit that makes the flesh to weak to stand, John 18:6) on the Lords day that was a chosen day of God in his timing and purpose to reveal these revelations to John. He was not literally taken up to heaven, John 3:13, but only in the Spirit.
John first heard a great voice as a trumpet as the voice was very distinct to him like that of hearing a trumpet sound in all its great power and authority. John heard the voice saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.(This was around 95AD after the Church was first established on the day of Pentecost)
Ephesus would be the nearest Church to this isle and as supply ships came in someone from the Church would come and take parts of these letters and hide them on their person and take them back to the Church of Ephesus as they were dispersed between all seven Churches.
You have no way to prove any of that.
- Thread starter
- #20
Why would I need to prove anything that you do not agree with!!!
Please....YOU do the work. YOU read actual, historical documents and study for yourself then you would not have to challenge the work of others.
So, actually....all you have to do is say....."In my Opinion, I disagree with your historical facts" then we would not have to argue this point.
I would direct you to.......https://biblehub.com/library/bullinger/commentary_on_revelation/the_seven_assemblies_as_a.htm
"When studying Revelation 2-3 chapters closely, it may be easy to become distracted with the details and lose track of the original question that we are considering. So just as a reminder, the question is: Who comprised the membership of the seven churches of Asia, to whom the book of Revelation was written, and to which dispensation do they belong? We will examine Revelation's numerous prophetic and doctrinal similarities with the books that were written to Israel, including the Old Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews, and the epistles of Peter, James, Jude, and John. We will also see some of the contrasts between the doctrine given to the seven churches and the doctrine of Paul's epistles to the Gentiles. Thus, we will see how Revelation was written to assemblies of Jews, rather than to the mostly Gentile churches who had been taught by our Apostle Paul.
Source - link.......https://www.matthewmcgee.org/7church.html#Section3