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Is There Any New Church doctrine in the Book of Revelation ?

Where in Rev 4:1-2 does it say anything about a pretrib Rapture of the Church? All I read is that John was in the Spirit while on the Isle of Patmos being held there as a prisoner for teaching the word of God when he received these visions from the angel Jesus sent to him and not literally taken up to Heaven as that would come against what Jesus said in John 3:13.

Rev 1:1-11
God gave these revelations to Jesus first and then he passed it onto John through a ministering angel through visions as God reveals those things that have to come to pass before the return of Jesus. The revelations are for the Church in John’s time plus every generation from that time on until Jesus returns in the air to gather up his Bride to the clouds as they receive their new glorified bodies and meet Jesus in the air, 1Corinthians 15:5-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The seven churches represent all who are in Christ and He in them from generation to generation. Only through that of Jesus being the final sacrifice for the atonement of sin can we become a royal priesthood joined to him, 1 Peter 2:9. Jesus comes in the clouds and every eye will see him, even those who have rejected him and many will loudly mourn his coming as they have never repented of their sin and now the door of salvation will be closed forever. God is never changing and his word will never come back void, Isaiah 55:11.

John was the last Apostle alive of the original twelve Disciples at the time of his writing these letters to the Church. John was with John the Baptist until that time he was called to be part of the twelve Disciples of Jesus. He was called the beloved of Jesus as he left John the Baptist to follow after Jesus. John was the only Disciple that witnessed the crucifixion of Christ as all the other Disciples fled when Jesus was arrested as they were in fear they would be arrested also, Matthew 25:56, but after Jesus ascended to heaven they were all made Apostles of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit that guided them.

John was the Apostle to the Church in Ephesus where he lived and wrote four epistles, John, First, Second and Third John. He was exiled to the isle of Patmos by the Roman Emperor Domitian for preaching the word of God in the Roman province of Asia where the seven Churches were located. It is said that John was in his nineties when he was exiled and probably released around 97 AD after Domitian died. John was born around 6 AD and died around 100 AD.

John was in the Spirit (being in the Spirit means being in the presence of Gods Spirit that makes the flesh to weak to stand, John 18:6) on the Lords day that was a chosen day of God in his timing and purpose to reveal these revelations to John. He was not literally taken up to heaven, John 3:13, but only in the Spirit.

John first heard a great voice as a trumpet as the voice was very distinct to him like that of hearing a trumpet sound in all its great power and authority. John heard the voice saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.(This was around 95AD after the Church was first established on the day of Pentecost)

Ephesus would be the nearest Church to this isle and as supply ships came in someone from the Church would come and take parts of these letters and hide them on their person and take them back to the Church of Ephesus as they were dispersed between all seven Churches.
I did not say that the Rapture was seen in Revelation 4:1-2.

What I did say was..........
"As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1."

The word Church is last seen in Rev. 3:22.

In Rev. 4:1-2 we see..........
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter".

Now, "a door was opened" is ἠνεῳγμενη in the Greek [ēneōgmenē], and it is a perfect tense: .....
Literally then is........“a door already having been opened.”

Lets dig a little deeper here. The door was opened prior to John seeing it and now stood ajar. In Rev. 3:8 Jesus set an open door before the Philadelphian church.

The Philadelphia church is the 7th one and it corresponds to the church of today, the age of Grace/Church Age. This door is not for evangelism, but provides passage for John to heaven to be shown the events recorded hereafter. T

When we study the whole Bible prophecy on this topic, we can see that there are numerous parallels between this passage and the other Scriptures.

1. Ezekiel said “the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God” (Eze. 1:1).

2. The “heavens were opened” at Jesus’ baptism (Mat. 3:16; Luke 3:21),.

3. The stoning of Steven (Acts 7:56).

4. Peter’s vision of the unclean animals (Acts 10:11),

5. The Second Coming of Christ (Rev. 19:11)

Then in Rev. 4:1 we read.....: “The first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said.”

This is the voice John heard at the first, on the Lord’s day, which sounded like a trumpet.

So then......Having written the letters to the churches, John is called “to Heaven that he might look down upon all that should follow from the point of view of Heaven itself.

It seems clear to ME, that any true understanding of the course of world events must be based on Heaven’s perspective of those events....."HEREAFTER"!

Further it may be said that here is a typical teaching in the very act of John’s translation to Heaven for the vision that is to follow. . . . all believers will be caught up to Heaven before the judgment is actually poured out upon the earth.”

Now may I say to you that the specific, literal words Rapture are NOT seen in Revelation 4:1, however that is MY personal understanding.

I agree and accept that there are those people who are averse to seeing any possible connection between the experience of John recorded here and the Rapture of the church and that is OK with me.
 
The (4) Gospels are written before the Church Age, yet the Holy Spirit includes them in the New Testament. The New Testament (every book) is used by the CHURCH for instruction in righteousness. Why did the Holy Spirit include the book of Revelation in the New Testament if it isn't written to and for the Church?

I agree with you completely and I am not trying to argue any point here.

I think it would be prudent to understand that though a few books have apocalyptic sections, and references, no other New Testament work is apocalyptic from the first to last verse as is the Revelation.

Also from all the Biblical evidence that we have, we should take into consideration that the author of The Revelation is an Apostle and is a Palestinian Jew turned Christian. As such, John shows an affinity and familiarity for the Jewish Scripture that few converts would have had.

Actually, the Revelation contains a higher percentage of Old Testament allusions in its verses than any other New Testament work (278 allusions in 404 verses).

Also lending credence to the Jewishness of the author, Revelation uses many semitisms and grammatical solecisms that a Greek would be unlikely to use.

Then, actual history tells us that the Revelation had the longest and hardest fight of any book to be recognized as inspired. Though numerous early authors quoted and approved of it, others argued against Revelation.

Now as with any specific Scripture, any and all can be learned from and applied to us today.

All I am saying is that the Revelation is about as Jewish as Jewish can get.

In other words, in the first century, anything that was “all Christian” was also “all Jewish”—the argument really came down to whether or not Jesus was the Messiah of Israel. But the images in Revelation—both the frightening and the hopeful—are Jewish all the way.

That does not in any diminish the meaning or the doctrine that the 2nd Coming of Jesus is imminent!













rt
rt
conv
 
I agree with you completely and I am not trying to argue any point here.

I think it would be prudent to understand that though a few books have apocalyptic sections, and references, no other New Testament work is apocalyptic from the first to last verse as is the Revelation.

Also from all the Biblical evidence that we have, we should take into consideration that the author of The Revelation is an Apostle and is a Palestinian Jew turned Christian. As such, John shows an affinity and familiarity for the Jewish Scripture that few converts would have had.

Actually, the Revelation contains a higher percentage of Old Testament allusions in its verses than any other New Testament work (278 allusions in 404 verses).

Also lending credence to the Jewishness of the author, Revelation uses many semitisms and grammatical solecisms that a Greek would be unlikely to use.

Then, actual history tells us that the Revelation had the longest and hardest fight of any book to be recognized as inspired. Though numerous early authors quoted and approved of it, others argued against Revelation.

Now as with any specific Scripture, any and all can be learned from and applied to us today.

All I am saying is that the Revelation is about as Jewish as Jewish can get.

In other words, in the first century, anything that was “all Christian” was also “all Jewish”—the argument really came down to whether or not Jesus was the Messiah of Israel. But the images in Revelation—both the frightening and the hopeful—are Jewish all the way.

That does not in any diminish the meaning or the doctrine that the 2nd Coming of Jesus is imminent!













rt
rt
conv
Thank you my brother! Agreed. God bless you!!
 
I'm sorry you can not see that the whole NT, including the last book, is about the church of Christ Jesus (Not the Church of the LATTER SAINTS) that started on the day of Pentecost with the doctrines of Christ (the word of God) that he gave to first the Jews and then the Gentiles that are grafted into the branch as the root is Christ Jesus with many members as there is no more Jew or Gentile, but one body of Christ with He being the head of the body. Romans 1:16-17, Romans 11:11.

Was it not an angel sent by Jesus to give these visions to John for instructions, edification and counsel in God's righteousness in how we are to conduct ourselves being the body of Christ, especially during those things that are yet to come per the visions John was given? Rev 1:1-3
My dear brother. There is no need for you to feel sorry for me!!!!

I am not sure why you are saying what you feel sorry for me, so I guess I need to clear this up for you.

The WHOLE Canon of Scripture, from Genesis to the Revelation is about, and for the Lord Jesus Christ!!!! Jesus is the theme of the Bible. Jesus is in every book of the Bible because everything in the Bible ultimately points to Him as seen in John 5:39 see and confirmed in Colossians 1:16 among many other Scriptures. Although the Son of God did not come to earth until a specific point in history, He is integral in both the Old and New Testaments.

Now lets talk REAL Scriptural truth. Matthew 15:24......
“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

When Jesus presented Himself as a shepherd to Israel, He was claiming to be the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. Are you still with me?????????

Every ministry must have priorities, and Christ’s ministry was no exception. When Jesus sent His disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom, He expressly told them in Matthew 10:5-6....
“Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.

Paul, in his missionary journeys, followed the same priority of preaching to the Jews first -Rom 1:16...
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. "

It was only after the Jews rejected their Messiah did God then turn to the Gentiles and GRAFT them into the "Root".

In Romans 11 we can clearly see that some of the natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17). The Gentiles, then, have been made partakers of the promises and inherit the blessings of God’s salvation.

It is important to understand how God called Israel to be His people and how they failed to fulfill that calling. As the seed of Abraham, the children of Israel were chosen by God to be a separate people, holy to the Lord.

Paul thus preached the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews and was repeatedly rejected so then in consequence, Paul brought the good news to the Gentiles, who in turn became Abraham’s spiritual seed by faith and heirs of the promises to Abraham and his seed (Galatians 3—4).

This is exactly what Paul meant in Romans 11 by the Gentiles being “grafted” into the “olive tree” and nourished by the “root” which was the promises to Abraham.
 
I did not say that the Rapture was seen in Revelation 4:1-2.

What I did say was..........
"As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1."

The word Church is last seen in Rev. 3:22.

In Rev. 4:1-2 we see..........
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter".

Now, "a door was opened" is ἠνεῳγμενη in the Greek [ēneōgmenē], and it is a perfect tense: .....
Literally then is........“a door already having been opened.”

Lets dig a little deeper here. The door was opened prior to John seeing it and now stood ajar. In Rev. 3:8 Jesus set an open door before the Philadelphian church.

The Philadelphia church is the 7th one and it corresponds to the church of today, the age of Grace/Church Age. This door is not for evangelism, but provides passage for John to heaven to be shown the events recorded hereafter. T

When we study the whole Bible prophecy on this topic, we can see that there are numerous parallels between this passage and the other Scriptures.

1. Ezekiel said “the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God” (Eze. 1:1).

2. The “heavens were opened” at Jesus’ baptism (Mat. 3:16; Luke 3:21),.

3. The stoning of Steven (Acts 7:56).

4. Peter’s vision of the unclean animals (Acts 10:11),

5. The Second Coming of Christ (Rev. 19:11)

Then in Rev. 4:1 we read.....: “The first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said.”

This is the voice John heard at the first, on the Lord’s day, which sounded like a trumpet.

So then......Having written the letters to the churches, John is called “to Heaven that he might look down upon all that should follow from the point of view of Heaven itself.

It seems clear to ME, that any true understanding of the course of world events must be based on Heaven’s perspective of those events....."HEREAFTER"!

Further it may be said that here is a typical teaching in the very act of John’s translation to Heaven for the vision that is to follow. . . . all believers will be caught up to Heaven before the judgment is actually poured out upon the earth.”

Now may I say to you that the specific, literal words Rapture are NOT seen in Revelation 4:1, however that is MY personal understanding.

I agree and accept that there are those people who are averse to seeing any possible connection between the experience of John recorded here and the Rapture of the church and that is OK with me.
You said: "The book of Revelation concerns Israel and non-believers, and not the Church. As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1."

Right there it shows you do not believe the book of Revelations is for today as much as in the day John wrote this book.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, which is not found in scripture no matter how they make scripture to line up with this false theory. There is no seven years, but that of only seven trumpets sounding. If you read about the first six trumpets they have a beginning and an end before the next one sounds. The seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end until that of Christ return on the last day.

Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a thief and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
 
You said: "The book of Revelation concerns Israel and non-believers, and not the Church. As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1."

Right there it shows you do not believe the book of Revelations is for today as much as in the day John wrote this book.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, which is not found in scripture no matter how they make scripture to line up with this false theory. There is no seven years, but that of only seven trumpets sounding. If you read about the first six trumpets they have a beginning and an end before the next one sounds. The seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end until that of Christ return on the last day.

Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a thief and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
I am not sure if you are arguing or disagreeing on purpose or some thing else.

Allow me to clear this up for you.

You just posted................
You said: "The book of Revelation concerns Israel and non-believers, and not the Church. As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1."

Right there it shows you do not believe the book of Revelations is for today as much as in the day John wrote this book.

My dear brother in Christ.....it seems that either I said it wrong or you misunderstood what I said or was trying to say.

Fact.....I believe with all my heart that every book in the Bible inc. the Revelation is written for us today!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I was saying/said is that ...."The book of Revelation concerns Israel and non-believers, and not the Church. As A Premillennialist, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is Raptured in Rev. 4:1."
For the life of me, I do not understand how you come to believe that ......
"Right there it shows you do not believe the book of Revelations is for today as much as in the day John wrote this book."


So, simply, the point is that The Revelation was written by A Jew, to Jews using Jewish symbols and terminology however, it is for EVERYONE WHO READS IT, but it does not focus on the Church as the church is not seen after chapter 4:1.

The rest of the entire book is what happens to he Jews and Israel during the Tribulation Peroid described in the Book of Daniel.

Now.....every single person who is not Raptured in Rev. 4:1 will go through the Tribulation and will be just as effected as will be Israel. The purpose of the Rapture is to allow the believers in Christ to escape the trouble that is coming to Israel in that time frame.

I hope this clears up any confusion for you.
 
My dear brother. There is no need for you to feel sorry for me!!!!

I am not sure why you are saying what you feel sorry for me, so I guess I need to clear this up for you.

The WHOLE Canon of Scripture, from Genesis to the Revelation is about, and for the Lord Jesus Christ!!!! Jesus is the theme of the Bible. Jesus is in every book of the Bible because everything in the Bible ultimately points to Him as seen in John 5:39 see and confirmed in Colossians 1:16 among many other Scriptures. Although the Son of God did not come to earth until a specific point in history, He is integral in both the Old and New Testaments.

Now lets talk REAL Scriptural truth. Matthew 15:24......
“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

When Jesus presented Himself as a shepherd to Israel, He was claiming to be the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. Are you still with me?????????

Every ministry must have priorities, and Christ’s ministry was no exception. When Jesus sent His disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom, He expressly told them in Matthew 10:5-6....
“Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.

Paul, in his missionary journeys, followed the same priority of preaching to the Jews first -Rom 1:16...
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. "

It was only after the Jews rejected their Messiah did God then turn to the Gentiles and GRAFT them into the "Root".

In Romans 11 we can clearly see that some of the natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17). The Gentiles, then, have been made partakers of the promises and inherit the blessings of God’s salvation.

It is important to understand how God called Israel to be His people and how they failed to fulfill that calling. As the seed of Abraham, the children of Israel were chosen by God to be a separate people, holy to the Lord.

Paul thus preached the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews and was repeatedly rejected so then in consequence, Paul brought the good news to the Gentiles, who in turn became Abraham’s spiritual seed by faith and heirs of the promises to Abraham and his seed (Galatians 3—4).

This is exactly what Paul meant in Romans 11 by the Gentiles being “grafted” into the “olive tree” and nourished by the “root” which was the promises to Abraham.
I'm a sister in Christ, thought I would just let you know.

This all started about you saying the Church is never mentioned again after Rev 3 in post # 39 and I showed you with scripture that the Church is very much throughout the book of Revelation.

I agree with what you said in the post here, but what does this have to do with the Church in the book of Revelation we have been talking about.

If you want to start a new topic on this please tag me in as I have more on this. but we are getting far away from the OP and I do not want to continue to derail this thread. It would be best to start a new topic in the End Times forum.
 
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I'm a sister in Christ, thought I would just let you know.

This all started about you saying the Church is never mentioned again after Rev 3 in post # 39 and I showed you with scripture that the Church is very much throughout the book of Revelation.

I agree with what you said in the post here, but what does this have to do with the Church in the book of Revelation we have been talking about.

If you want to start a new topic on this please tag me in as I have more on this. but we are getting far away from the OP and I do not want to continue to derail this thread. It would be best to start a new topic in the End Times forum.
Hello sister! My apologies.

Maybe the misunderstanding here is that I left out the "word" Church.

Rev. 3:22.......
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The last word in verse 22 is "Church". My only point was that that is the last time you see the specific WORD "Church" in the book.

In short, my own point was that the word 'church' is used in the first section because that is what the first section concentrates upon. The rest of the book covers other aspects and the servants of God, the nation of Israel and the martyrs of God are visible, but not seen as the church, as such, in those sections.
 
Why would I need to prove anything that you do not agree with!!!

Please....YOU do the work. YOU read actual, historical documents and study for yourself then you would not have to challenge the work of others.

So, actually....all you have to do is say....."In my Opinion, I disagree with your historical facts" then we would not have to argue this point.

I would direct you to.......https://biblehub.com/library/bullinger/commentary_on_revelation/the_seven_assemblies_as_a.htm

"When studying Revelation 2-3 chapters closely, it may be easy to become distracted with the details and lose track of the original question that we are considering. So just as a reminder, the question is: Who comprised the membership of the seven churches of Asia, to whom the book of Revelation was written, and to which dispensation do they belong? We will examine Revelation's numerous prophetic and doctrinal similarities with the books that were written to Israel, including the Old Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews, and the epistles of Peter, James, Jude, and John. We will also see some of the contrasts between the doctrine given to the seven churches and the doctrine of Paul's epistles to the Gentiles. Thus, we will see how Revelation was written to assemblies of Jews, rather than to the mostly Gentile churches who had been taught by our Apostle Paul.

Source - link.......https://www.matthewmcgee.org/7church.html#Section3
I do not agree with your sources.
 
It really is not a matter of me disagreeing with anyone. It is simply a theological fact that The book of Revelation does not contain specific church doctrine.

If you believe that is not the case then I would encourage you to post what those would be.

It should also be noted that the 7 churches in chapter 2 and 3 are a;; Jesish assemblies and not Christian churches and the language is wholly Jewish.

The focus of the book is God's judgment and salvation during a specific time peroid.
I completely disagree that Revelation does not establish or confirm doctrinal truth for the Church. The deity of Jesus is clearly present in that book. The belief that God tolerates Christian suffering is in that book. The belief that Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world is in that book. And if you're a Postribulationist, you see that doctrine established there, as well.

The 7 churches mentioned in the Revelation are not Jewish churches. They were churches set up in Asia Minor, which were clearly a mixture of ethnic groups. John was Jewish, but he was commissioned with the other 11 to go out to other nations, which is why he had been arrested by Rome and sent into exile. Paul ministered in some of these churches, and he had been called to the Gentiles--not just to Jews.
 
Hello sister! My apologies.

Maybe the misunderstanding here is that I left out the "word" Church.

Rev. 3:22.......
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The last word in verse 22 is "Church". My only point was that that is the last time you see the specific WORD "Church" in the book.

In short, my own point was that the word 'church' is used in the first section because that is what the first section concentrates upon. The rest of the book covers other aspects and the servants of God, the nation of Israel and the martyrs of God are visible, but not seen as the church, as such,, but yet in those sections.
It's like the word Trinity that is not written, but yet is implied throughout the Bible as to what the Trinity is. (Let's not make this about the Trinity) The word "Church" is written in Revelation about the seven Churches in Asia Minor up to the end of chapter three. After instructions given to the seven Church's, which also represents all of us as being one body in Christ, Romans 12:5; 1Cor 12:27, beginning on the day of Pentecost, Chapter 4-5 is about the throne of God and the sealed books. From there the angel shows John the prophecies of tribulation, Rev 6-18. Chapter 19 is about the marriage supper of the Lamb and the second coming of Christ. From Chapters 20-22 are the prophecies of the Millennium and of the eternal state. This is all written for the Church being the body of Christ to take this out into the world to those who have not yet come to the Lord.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
 
I completely disagree that Revelation does not establish or confirm doctrinal truth for the Church. The deity of Jesus is clearly present in that book. The belief that God tolerates Christian suffering is in that book. The belief that Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world is in that book. And if you're a Postribulationist, you see that doctrine established there, as well.

The 7 churches mentioned in the Revelation are not Jewish churches. They were churches set up in Asia Minor, which were clearly a mixture of ethnic groups. John was Jewish, but he was commissioned with the other 11 to go out to other nations, which is why he had been arrested by Rome and sent into exile. Paul ministered in some of these churches, and he had been called to the Gentiles--not just to Jews.
My dear, friend....the fact that Jesus is God, God tolerates suffering and Jesus is the Lamb of God are all established Christian doctrines established by the Apostles many years before the Revelation was written.

If you are suggesting that the book of Revelation "validates" those established doctrines, then yes I would agree. However, again...what I am saying is that the Revelation has NO church doctrine that the people living then would follow for the simple fact that there is NO church during the 7 year Tribulation Period.

I am Not a Postribulationist.

God bless you.
 
That is certainly your choice.

Will you post some of your sources so that we can understand your position.
The churches of Revelations were in Turkey.
Show where any church Paul founded denied Gentile access.
They were mixed groups of both Jews and Gentiles.
 
The churches of Revelations were in Turkey.
Show where any church Paul founded denied Gentile access.
They were mixed groups of both Jews and Gentiles.
It seems as if you do not want to post your sources?????

Yes.....Those 7 churches were all in Turkey.
NO church Paul founded denied Gentile attendance that I know of.

But none of this addresses the question at hand.

Revelation 1:6 says that Jesus Christ, "... hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father ...." There are similar statements in Revelation 5:10 and 20:6.

Where have we heard this before?

This is what God told Moses to tell Israel.

"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 19:6).

Isaiah 61:6 echoes this verse, ......
"But ye shall be named the priests of the LORD: men shall call you the ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves."

I hope that you understand that I am not in anyway trying to be argumentitive or confrontational. I am only pointing out something that many have not considered.

So then, the words "priest," "priests," "priesthood," and "priestly" never occur from Romans to Philemon, Paul's letters to the Gentiles.
That being the case, I see no reason to think believers in this present grace dispensation are to be priests. Therefore, Revelation 1:6 would indicate that the book was written to Jews.
 
It seems as if you do not want to post your sources?????

Yes.....Those 7 churches were all in Turkey.
NO church Paul founded denied Gentile attendance that I know of.

But none of this addresses the question at hand.

Revelation 1:6 says that Jesus Christ, "... hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father ...." There are similar statements in Revelation 5:10 and 20:6.

Where have we heard this before?

This is what God told Moses to tell Israel.

"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 19:6).

Isaiah 61:6 echoes this verse, ......
"But ye shall be named the priests of the LORD: men shall call you the ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves."

I hope that you understand that I am not in anyway trying to be argumentitive or confrontational. I am only pointing out something that many have not considered.

So then, the words "priest," "priests," "priesthood," and "priestly" never occur from Romans to Philemon, Paul's letters to the Gentiles.
That being the case, I see no reason to think believers in this present grace dispensation are to be priests. Therefore, Revelation 1:6 would indicate that the book was written to Jews.
If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of God's people, suit yourself.
But I, a Gentile believer, have been grafted in among the true Israelites, and consider them as just like us.
If it is the manner of kings and priests, I give glory to God for such an esteemed status.
 
New Thread for the Church in the Book of Revelation . Keep it to angels here please .
I would say that there is NO NEW Church doctrine in the Revelation.

There are topics such as are repeated and validate but there is no new doctrine given to church simply because there is NO church on the earth during the 7 year Tribulation Peroid that the Rev. explaines.

The words "Church (After 3:22)"priest," "priests," "priesthood," and "priestly" never occur from Romans to Philemon, Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

I see no reason to think believers in this present grace dispensation are to be priests.
Therefore, Revelation 1:6 would indicate that the book was written to Jews in Asia Minor.

Notice the literal words........Revelation 2:9 says,
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

"Synagogue, not Church.

The phrase, "Synagogue of Satan" occurs in the messages to both Smyrna and Philadelphia.Rev. 2:9 "... I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan".

Writing to Philadelphia,
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee" (Revelation 3:9).
 
If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of God's people, suit yourself.
But I, a Gentile believer, have been grafted in among the true Israelites, and consider them as just like us.
If it is the manner of kings and priests, I give glory to God for such an esteemed status.
I do not understand the hostility here from you.

Where am I trying to set myself apart from anyone. Please name the post #.

I also am a Gentile believer. As such we are all grafted into the Root and yes we are all equal in the eyes of God in Christ.

THAT is and has not been said or suggested my friend.

I am simply drawing attention to something that you obviousely are unaware of.

If you will simply do a little work and study you will easily see that ALL 7 Churches in Rev. 1-3 were in Asia Minor which is today Turkey. Again....it take very little study to find out that they were Jewish assemblies.

The abundance of scriptural evidence found in the Bible makes it very clear that Revelation is doctrine for Israel, which was written to Jews who believed in Jesus Christ, by an apostle of the circumcision, for direct application in the prophetic "kingdom" dispensation. Now then, at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, God placed that dispensation on hold (Suspended) in 70 AD, to be resumed in the future 7 year tribulation or Jacobs Trouble.
 
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