is your father legalistic when he tells u eat ur vegies? or don't lay on the train tracks?

[Kathi]

does it become legalistic if there's a penalty for disobeying ? or is it still advice? like if your told don't run a red light, then you run a red light anyway, and get a $180 fine (that's the fine around here), was that just advise or was it legalistic ? (i think it's both, with a gentle meaning for the word 'legalistic')

That is stupidity.

 

[follower]

As concerning the law; which one do any here purposely break and pretend you don't?
...

i don't think that's a fair question Eugene. (great possibilities for another thread somewhere though)
i think if someone posts about someone breaking the law on purpose, or breaking the law not on purpose,
i think they deny it, and defend it, and report it, and attack verbally the revealing, not necessarily in that order.
and i think that they won't tell on themselves because denying that they break the law shows that they don't think they did break the law in the first place; it doesn't enter their mind to admit it.

not to complicate things, but just saying this makes getting directly to the point impossible sometimes.

 

[follower]

That is stupidity.

are you sidestepping the question on purpose, or just don't understand it.
if Yhwh says to do something, should we do it or not ? some people think this is legalistic, some people think it is just good advice. either way, should we do what Yhwh says or disobey Him ?

 

[follower]

that's really an open question also, for anyone interested in seeking Yhwh in Yeshua.
is it right or is it wrong to obey Yhwh the Creator ? (not related to Salvation, as the Jews and the gentiles may obey and still not be saved)
is it right if it's just advice?
is it right if it's law ?
or is it wrong in either case ?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Colossians 2:20-23; NIV

"Since you died to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to it's rules: Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence".

 

[Kathi]

are you sidestepping the question on purpose, or just don't understand it.
if Yhwh says to do something, should we do it or not ? some people think this is legalistic, some people think it is just good advice. either way, should we do what Yhwh says or disobey Him ?

I think the Bible is full of Godly advise.But what you posted is not legalism.Now not hanging mirrors on the wall because the Bible talks about graven images is legalism.The Amish are very legalistic.

 

[Eugene]

i don't think that's a fair question Eugene. (great possibilities for another thread somewhere though)
i think if someone posts about someone breaking the law on purpose, or breaking the law not on purpose,
i think they deny it, and defend it, and report it, and attack verbally the revealing, not necessarily in that order.
and i think that they won't tell on themselves because denying that they break the law shows that they don't think they did break the law in the first place; it doesn't enter their mind to admit it.

not to complicate things, but just saying this makes getting directly to the point impossible sometimes.

Oh this is not a new thing on these forums. We have many believers that believe they keep the law, but honest ones admit that they too break the ten commandments as it were. Do you really think they accidentally get angered, not honor those God put over them, break any driving law ever, and the law stretches on and on. What is the law known as? Is it not the ministration of death? One bad, and you're dead meat? What do you think? Thanks.

 

[follower]

these are really simple and common questions that were asked by people in the bible or bible times. and they were answered in the bible also.

modern people have gotten so far from the Way of Scriptures , very few are known as "people of the Book" anymore. (so few obey what the Bible says anymore).

I think the Bible is full of Godly advise.But what you posted is not legalism.Now not hanging mirrors on the wall because the Bible talks about graven images is legalism.The Amish are very legalistic.

the apostle paul was very legalistic before he got immersed in the Name Yeshua. very few people if any one at all could claim to be as good a law keeper as he was , i think.
after he was saved, he still obeyed Yhwh's commands very strictly, but not as if obeying them would help him in any way. he obeyed for the same reason all the other apostles and all the disciples obeyed - they loved Yhwh and lived in union with Him in Yeshua.

and they still called Torah , Torah. they still called the commandments, commandments. (in Hebrew or Aramaic or greek, of course).

 

[follower]

Oh this is not a new thing on these forums. We have many believers that believe they keep the law, but honest ones admit that they too break the ten commandments as it were. Do you really think they accidentally get angered, not honor those God put over them, break any driving law ever, and the law stretches on and on. What is the law known as? Is it not the ministration of death? One bad, and you're dead meat? What do you think? Thanks.

the letter of the law brings death, of course.
the law of the Spirit of LIfe in Yeshua HaMashiach brings Life, of course. this is written.
the ekklesia don't think that if they break the law they're dead meat, usually. they (hopefully) quickly repent, return to Yhwh(or turn to Yhwh away from sin), confessing their breaking the law and are forgiven.(all written throughout N.T.).

 

[Eugene]

the letter of the law brings death, of course.
the law of the Spirit of LIfe in Yeshua HaMashiach brings Life, of course. this is written.
the ekklesia don't think that if they break the law they're dead meat, usually. they (hopefully) quickly repent, return to Yhwh(or turn to Yhwh away from sin), confessing their breaking the law and are forgiven.(all written throughout N.T.).

Don't you realize that if they kept the law as they advise me to do, they would never have to confess anything? My question remains: why do they sin on purpose? Next, since they believe they can be lost for breaking the law, are they on their way to hell the moment they sin? Okay, if they repent and confess, are they safe and saved again? How about next getting re-baptized?

Shall we now go to them and ask if they're received the Holy Ghost since they believed huh? I do hope you do realize I'm just sarcastically showing the impossibility of keeping all the law, and that we put our trust in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. As I've told others, maybe they can tell Jesus that they have kept all the law as the young ruler did, but I think that today their works are no better than he had, and he was told something was lacking. There's always a deficient in the best laid action and plans of men. Go sell all you have and follow Jesus. If Jesus' shed blood was not sufficient, I know of nothing more to add, and it is God doing the work in us to come into His perfect will for us.

 

[reba]

Many break the laws and justify there actions or their words... Very often those who run around sounding as if they never break the commandments will not honestly look at themselves. .

 

[follower]

Don't you realize that if they kept the law as they advise me to do, they would never have to confess anything? My question remains: why do they sin on purpose? Next, since they believe they can be lost for breaking the law, are they on their way to hell the moment they sin? Okay, if they repent and confess, are they safe and saved again? How about next getting re-baptized?
Shall we now go to them and ask if they're received the Holy Ghost since they believed huh? I do hope you do realize I'm just sarcastically showing the impossibility of keeping all the law, and that we put our trust in the finished work of Jesus on the cross......

.... well, this is going to take a long time.... (probably). (and that's okay with me, step by step, if it's okay with you) i'd rather jump ahead, but then the whole and important point is missed - from the first question , (even though sarcastically or rather even 'rhetorical') it's important.

simply restated: if they kept the law, they would never have to confess anything.

this was especially troubling to me as a teenager long ago. i was 'good', practically 'perfect', in terms of the law(as far as i knew it). i grew up in ss and church and private christian school. i was a straight a student. i even thought for a time i would be a pastor(like the pastoral job i saw all my life - the preacher in the pulpit, during service,and in the office or other duties through the week, and home and hospital visits of course. simple picture of a job. really an easy job too, by appearances to me. and a respected job. with good pay i might have thought, if i thought of pay. i didn't really care then, or ever since then, about how much it paid though, as far as i remember.
i never disobeyed my mother or father (or step-father). never even thought of disobeying them, ever, all my life. (this is btw quite different than most children then to now; i didn't know it then though, how unusual it was- i thought it was normal). i don't think i ever lied (even more rare) willingly or wittingly, even it meant great cost, or loss, or punishment - there was no reason ever to lie- no reason to ever deceive anyone. (this is even more poignant, no credit to me, having found out that everyone everywhere in every level of society is deceived and lied to many times daily, and they all think that's normal! that's devastating to an honest soul and a pure heart. )....
....
cutting to the point , when i was convicted by the Spirit of Yhwh, i had no understanding at all of how to repent or confess, or what to repent of or what to confess. i kept the whole law perfectly, of the congregation/church i was in most of my youth, and of the neighborhood/society/city/ state (civil law?) i lived in. i never even thought of breaking the law, God's or man's, as far as i can recollect. (and it was verified later by extensive backround check which included every address i'd ever lived at, several neighbors at each address, every school i'd ever attended, all my teachers and pastors i'd had, all my family and extended family, and so on. not an absolute verification, but more than anyone else had been through that i knew. turns out this was 'standard' backround check for all the employees in certain areas, but i didn't have a clue about it at the time , or until many years later. )
this didn't justify me though before Yhwh.
it didn't mean i was right before Yhwh, or even okay.
oh, i was 'perfect' as concerned any church or school or civil regulations; and no one had ever told me otherwise (again, not that i remember).
so when it came time to meet God(Yhwh), i didn't know anything to repent of nor to confess.

Eugene, i've got to go rest now. Yhwh willing i can continue this in the next day or 3..... it is important.(for myself, and maybe for someone else; Yhwh knows).

 

[Edward]

or drink 6 glasses of pure water daily ?
or don't stick a butter knife in an outlet ?
or don't walk naked down the middle of main street ?
or don't trip a blind man ?
or don't trust a con man ?
or don't do give urself an std ?
or don't eat metal splinters and don't eat contaminated bacterial moldy germy cereal ?
or don't set off fire crackers between your toes ?


so then, when Yhwh gives simple, non-burdensome instructions for life, (life on earth and eternal life),
is He being legalistic ? if so, is He wrong ?

It depends what's in their heart. My grandma was the one that kept "nagging" at me when I was young to do right. When I was young, I thought that she was hassling me, now that I am older, I see and understand that she was right, and cared a lot for me and this is what was in her heart to tell me to do right.

(BTW, you can stick a butter knife into either side of an outlet and not get shocked...until you ground yourself and complete the circuit! Kids playing with keys in an outlet get shocked when the extra keys dangle and touch the screw that hold the cover plate on!)

 

[rthom7]

Follower writes good points, but I also see a lot of different theories of faith on the concept of torah-teachings.

We also need to clarify the difference between torah-teachings and the Hebrew word "commandments". Often in our Greek mind set, we see "torah" as "civil laws" with punishments for wrong doing. The word "torah" comes from the idea to "teach" to "throw down the directions one should go" something a school teacher does. A commandment is more a strong rule.

Jesus kept the torah perfectly otherwise His sacrifice for our sinning would have been blemished....so if He kept all of them, why do we suppose we can't ? After all GOD empowers us with his power doesn't He? And if Jesus died to make it easier for us to be saved, why did the Father write salvation in harder laws for only one, His Son? It makes more logical sense the Father has attitudes called love, and they have never changed for anybody....Jesus has grace though when He overlooks our missing, and that is nice for us, but His ideal is to follow and walk as He did. Shalom

 

[follower]

ty and please enjoy this >>
http://www.therefinersfire.org/torah_and_righteousness.htm

For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous. (Romans 2:13)

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

When God promised the New Covenant to Israel (Jeremiah31:31) he said: "I will put my Torah in their minds, and write it on their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33 and quoted in Hebrews 8:16). Here we see that God's plans in the new Covenant included his Torah. In the New Covenant, the word nomos (Greek translation of the Hebrew word Torah) is used about 200 times. Not one of these 200 occurrences ever says that the Torah has been abolished or taken away. Rather the New Covenant re-affirms the existence of the Torah. Here are just a few of these passages.

"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Torah". (Luke 16:17)

 

[rthom7]

Follower, Shimon, Beyt HaKakosh writes well, and I agree with his summary on torah...thanks for the share....

Most Jews see torah rules as commandments like the 613 arbitrary ones they have selected by human tradition.
I see torah as the broader meaning, the whole of Scripture as well as the prophets , all of Scripture can be torah if you find some direction of life from the verses, and or some attitudes of love from the verses.

1 Genesis 1:28 You shall take a wife, be fruitful and multiply

This the first commandment torah the Jews consider...for example

• 1 Gen 1:28 a Be fruitful and multiply

• 2 Gen 1:28 b Subdue the earth and control it functionally

• 3 Gen 1:29 Eat every grass seed, vegetable and fruit from trees

• 4 Gen 2:15 Man is to work his garden land and take care of it

• 5 Gen 2:16 Of any fruit tree you may freely eat except one

• 6 Gen 2:18 Man should not be alone but with a help meet

• 7 Gen 2:24 Man should build families

• 8 Gen 2:24 Cleave to one wife as one flesh in marriage

Whereas I find at least 8 torah teachings from Genesis alone, that Jews do not consider.

In general there is nothing strict about teachings, it is simply a method of explaining how we love, how we specifically go about that love and the specifics of building love in our world environment. I also tend to see the principles rather than the specifics.

Follower you are correct torah was never abolished....parts of torah was changed, as in animal sacrifice, but Jesus did not change his system of salvation so sinner's could be easily saved.....that would mean Enoch and Abraham were saved under different torah, and His Son Jesus also died under different torah...then already we have disorder and confusion, there is only one process of salvation, introduced in Eden by God when Adam sinned, they had to make a sin-offering that pointed to a human who would come in their fallen flesh as a result of their sinning, but make no sinning himself, and live a perfect life according to torah, as salvation in heaven demands.

Jesus does offer grace for Gentiles who live outside torah, for when they first come into Jesus salvation, they are trained and brought into His love...so God is more patient on those coming into his salvation system....

Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

These verses say even Gentiles are required to live by torah, but only gradually because they do not know torah as well as those fully growing up in torah...that makes sense....learning how to love takes time, and in the meanwhile God is patient with us, and judges us by the light we live up to....I like a GOD like that...we are not saved by how well you love, I am better loving God than you are, that's legalism, no...we are saved by simply accepting God's love and growing in it....

Thanks Follower for the link...God bless....Shalom

 

[Eugene]

Is this off topic?
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

 

[reba]

They kinda go with this passage

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[JLB]

One of the questions I always ask Legalists is... are you selectively picking your "laws" to follow? If not, then why haven't any of you stoned your sons for getting smart-mouthed.... or any of the many other "laws" you, yourselves, choose to disregard?

See? All you are really doing is just creating the same old atmosphere of self-righteous religion that Jesus constantly spoke against.

Amen.

The law of Moses was added, until the Seed should come.

The Seed has come and fulfilled the law, so now the law has vanished away.

However, we will always have the laws of God's kingdom to guide us, which were present and in force since the Garden.


The 10 Commandments were around long before Moses was born.

Abraham walked with God and obeyed His Voice and kept His law and commandments 430 years before the law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

...because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

The law of Christ and His Kingdom are what is forever.


The law of sin and death is what Adam disobeyed, whereby death spread to all men.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Is this off topic?
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

It's not off topic, it sets a valuable principle for us to learn by.

Is Paul concerned with herbs or vegetables, or is it our faith that is the concern?

Our faith is the concern.

3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. Romans 14:3-9


The point that is being made here is a person's faith, and those whose faith is weak, need tangible "things' to do or eat or observe, to prop up their weak faith.

Paul goes on to say...22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:22-23


That is a HUGH statement! ...for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Faith comes from God speaking to you.

If a person's faith is weak, then that is a sign that their one on one relationship with God is weak, therefore they go about doing tangible "things" that they can see with their natural eyes... that gives them a sense that they are doing what God wants.

This is the very thing that behind wearing Jewish clothing and trying to keep the physical requirements Moses law, and observing feast's and special days and special food diets, which have no bearing on the spiritual life of faith, which comes from God.

The invisible God.


JLB