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Bible Study Isaiah 65

Dear Alabaster, When Christ returns, there will be no more time. Eternity will begin. Christ will judge all people in His righteousness. Then His eternal Kingdom in heaven in the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and a New Earth will begin and will last forever and ever. There will be no time for 1000 years still in this present world, with some people resurrected, and some people non-resurrected and marrying and giving in marriage. That will all be over, and earthly marriage will be no more. In the resurrection to come, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like as the angels in heaven. Christ will reign with His Church in heaven, and it will be the marriage supper of the Lamb, where the Church will feed on Christ's Body and drink Christ's blood in Heaven forever. It will be a glorious day without end, eternity with Christ God, for whomever receives mercy from Christ. May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on all of us. All of you, may Christ remember in His Kingdom. Amen. In Erie Scott Harrington
:pray

The Millennial Kingdom is set in time, and it is not a time for judgment. You need more study, because you are mixing the Millennial Reign of Christ with the New Earth and the City of God that comes down out of heaven to dwell with us forever.
 
The Millennial Kingdom is set in time, and it is not a time for judgment. You need more study, because you are mixing the Millennial Reign of Christ with the New Earth and the City of God that comes down out of heaven to dwell with us forever.
Dear Alabaster, Name one verse in the Bible that says there will be marriage on earth after Christ comes again. Instead, the NT says, In the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven. When Christ comes again, all people will be resurrected. His Church will be saved, the saved people will be His Church. The rest will be lost. Whoever Christ saves will eventually be in His Church. In Erie PA Scott H.
:pray
 
Dear Alabaster, Name one verse in the Bible that says there will be marriage on earth after Christ comes again. Instead, the NT says, In the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven. When Christ comes again, all people will be resurrected. His Church will be saved, the saved people will be His Church. The rest will be lost. Whoever Christ saves will eventually be in His Church. In Erie PA Scott H.
:pray

There will be a remnant of survivors of the Tribulation. They will replenish the earth, by marrying and having children.
The Church will have already been judged and received their rewards and positions and will have returned with Jesus to earth.

We the Bride will be immortal and unable to procreate, but those who survive Tribulation will make up the nations during that thousand years.

You are talking about after the Great White Throne judgment.
 
Ummm, folks, I don't want to sound unappreciative of the participation, but I purposely chose the "Bible Study" forum for this thread as opposed to the "End Times" forum. I did so because I really don't want an eschatology debate, but rather some in-depth study of texts that will illuminate what is being prophesied here. Opinions on the Millennium are varied and about as provable as opinions on OSAS and Predestination. This isn't intended to be a Millennium debate. However, any texts that tie the passage in question to a 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth will be considered, of course!


I do thank all for the texts provided so far and intend to dig more into them tomorrow morning, if I don't have to spend the entire morning digging out from under snow...it's coming down pretty heavily out there now. I do need to dig into the Hebrew text that Hitch shared for I didn't have time to do it justice today.
 
Ummm, folks, I don't want to sound unappreciative of the participation, but I purposely chose the "Bible Study" forum for this thread as opposed to the "End Times" forum. I did so because I really don't want an eschatology debate, but rather some in-depth study of texts that will illuminate what is being prophesied here. Opinions on the Millennium are varied and about as provable as opinions on OSAS and Predestination. This isn't intended to be a Millennium debate. However, any texts that tie the passage in question to a 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth will be considered, of course!


I do thank all for the texts provided so far and intend to dig more into them tomorrow morning, if I don't have to spend the entire morning digging out from under snow...it's coming down pretty heavily out there now. I do need to dig into the Hebrew text that Hitch shared for I didn't have time to do it justice today.

Okely dokely! Be careful shoveling!
 
Verse 17 starts with: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind." This is speaking of after the Great White Throne Judgment.

The child living to be a hundred word, is Isaiah's 'pen' just telling us that he will never die as I see it. One has to study 'Eternal Life' as Christ explains in Matt. 4:4 using all scripture on that doctrine. And this is a Doctrine of His, huh? So again 2 Tim. 3:16 requires [ALL SCRIPTURE] not just 'one word'.:)

And surely you do have this above right! 'And the former things will not be remembered or come into mind' also needs STUDY. The shortest verse in the bible is that our Master wept! (note Eccl. 3:15) We are told in 1 Cor. 6:2-3 that we will have part in the Executional Fate of the lost. This will be during the time of the 1000 years of earths past destruction along with the wicked. (2 Thess. 2:8-12)

The saved surely while in heaven, will while coming up to the losts names (Eccl. 12:13-14) which we personally might see that it was our lack of effort (or worse) to lovingly warn them, and that that was one reason they were lost, which we will surely feel great sorrow & pain for?? (our family or children even perhaps, or forum 'posters'??)

OK: For the Tears being ALL WIPED AWAY?? That is after the 1000 year Judgement & the Heavenly City comming to earth & the hell's cleansing of earth + the Second Death of the wicked.

It is hard to understand about former things being gone? But the Eternal Glorious Godhead & heaven will do this. And the Saved will just accept 'Gods Strange Act' as now being an Justified fact! What more could God Do?? See Isa. 5:4! And the answer is that NOTHING MORE COULD BE DONE!

Let me just say?? that the Nail Prints & Scare in Christs side will be the only thing ever again needed to remind us of what sin COST the Godhead! Nah. 1:9

And me personaly?? 'i' think that heaven will have a recorded library of the Lord's Eternal Plan of Salvation from start to finish for any who will want to go over it.
1 Peter 1:7-12! + 'other unfallen world's twice repeated in Heb. Also see Nah. 1:9

--Elijah
 
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Ummm, folks, I don't want to sound unappreciative of the participation, but I purposely chose the "Bible Study" forum for this thread as opposed to the "End Times" forum. I did so because I really don't want an eschatology debate, but rather some in-depth study of texts that will illuminate what is being prophesied here. Opinions on the Millennium are varied and about as provable as opinions on OSAS and Predestination. This isn't intended to be a Millennium debate. However, any texts that tie the passage in question to a 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth will be considered, of course!


I do thank all for the texts provided so far and intend to dig more into them tomorrow morning, if I don't have to spend the entire morning digging out from under snow...it's coming down pretty heavily out there now. I do need to dig into the Hebrew text that Hitch shared for I didn't have time to do it justice today.

Agreed, let's keep this to a productive study without getting into an end times discussion.

Handy,
I would ask that you report any posts that are made during your study that you feel are outside of the guidelines and recommendations of this forum.

Sorry I haven't been around to help keep the forum running in the right direction.
 
Re: Isaiah 65 Anyone know Hebrew?

Thanks, Jeff! I understand how easy it is to get sidetracked on certain topics, been there and done that myself!


Hitch, I've read through Hebrews 12:18-24. I do believe that the heavenly Jerusalem is one and the same as the Jerusalem described in Revelation 21:10-27, but in the context of the Hebrews text, the city is still in heaven. Paul also references the heavenly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:26. It does not "come down from heaven" until after the creation of the new earth. That city is real and it exists as we speak right now. But it is in heaven as of now, as it was during the time Hebrews was written and Paul was teaching the Galatians.

Alabaster, I see what you are saying about the word "but" in verse 18. However, in studying the Hebrew, the word "but" is more or less extrapolated out of the Hebrew word "suws" meaning to exult and rejoice. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but it seems that the word "but" acts more as an imperative, telling us to exult, not as a transition, changing the context from one time frame to another.

Paraphrasing my understanding of how "but" works in this, "the old world will not be remembered, but rejoice and be glad in this new one."

If there are any Hebrew scholars out there who read this, please chime in.
 
Re: Isaiah 65 Anyone know Hebrew?

Thanks, Jeff! I understand how easy it is to get sidetracked on certain topics, been there and done that myself!


Hitch, I've read through Hebrews 12:18-24. I do believe that the heavenly Jerusalem is one and the same as the Jerusalem described in Revelation 21:10-27, but in the context of the Hebrews text, the city is still in heaven. Paul also references the heavenly Jerusalem in Galatians 4:26. It does not "come down from heaven" until after the creation of the new earth. That city is real and it exists as we speak right now. But it is in heaven as of now, as it was during the time Hebrews was written and Paul was teaching the Galatians.
The city is real and we have come to it through the grace of God, past tense. And it foundation is the appostles. Or by 'real' do you mean bricks&motar? Note that Paul writes long after the resurrection of Chirst
Alabaster, I see what you are saying about the word "but" in verse 18. However, in studying the Hebrew, the word "but" is more or less extrapolated out of the Hebrew word "suws" meaning to exult and rejoice. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but it seems that the word "but" acts more as an imperative, telling us to exult, not as a transition, changing the context from one time frame to another.

Paraphrasing my understanding of how "but" works in this, "the old world will not be remembered, but rejoice and be glad in this new one."

If there are any Hebrew scholars out there who read this, please chime in.


22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The City ,Body of Christ, Congregation of the Lord, the Bride, the Church; All of which share heavenly origin and exist simutaneously in the heavenly and earthy spheres.
 
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I was reading through another thread here and read this text:

Upon reading through this passage, one that I've read before, but not as thoroughly as this time, I'm a bit puzzled.

Obviously, this passage refers to the new earth and new Jerusalem. Since it does so...why the reference to the youth dying at the age of 100.

Also, because of Mark 12:25 (for when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage) how does bearing children come into play?
Dear handy, Here is some of what the ACCS (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture) says on ISAIAH 65:17-25.

"Overview: the new heaven and earth that God will provide for his people means they will have a new start, forgetting what is past (JEROME). Just how the heavens and the earth will be transformed is a mystery (ORIGEN). Newness is not a discontinuing of the old but a change into a better state (JEROME). The new heavens and earth can be understood as meaning the new spiritual life granted to the church by Christ's advent (EPHREM). Instead of former afflictions, those in the church or, perhaps, those in heaven, will find joy (CYRIL). All those in heaven, in fact, will find not only joy, but will no longer have to worry about death (JEROME).
"Those saved will have the richness of full life added to them, but the sinner is judged across all his lifespan (THEODORE). The "young" is a reference to the Gentiles, who are new to the knowledge of the true God (PROCOPIUS). Spiritual diligence requires and is required for the discovery of a deeper sense of prophecies (AUGUSTINE). What is new about creation is that it is seen as the creation belonging to the Creator -- with the eyes of faith (THEODORET). The prophecy does have a literal fuflillment in the events of the Maccabean times as well (ISHO'DAD).
"Access to the tree of life is available for those who know their fault, unlike Adam, who ate impenitently (JEROME). Christ gives life to the church through the Scriptures (AUGUSTINE). When believers come to the cross, it offers the life-giving body to them (THEODORET). God works so that our will is strengthened and so that our labor in him is not in vain (CASSIAN). It makes no sense to think of the final verse of this section as predicting a literal coexistence of real animals who are enemies of each other on Mount Zion (JEROME), although it does prophesy that the end will be like the original state of uncorrupted paradise (GRGEGORY OF ELVIRA). All people in paradise will feed on the Holy Spirit's teaching without regard to rank (THEODORET).
"65:17 New Heavens and a New Earth
"A New Start. JEROME: The new heavens and new earth are cause for rejoicing and for confessing the true God, because eternal amnesia follows on the former tribulations: this means that those who live therein will never be mindful of idols and previous errors but will pass from darkness into light for the enjoyment of eternal beatitude. For they will forget the former evils, not by having their memories destroyed but by receiving an inheritance of goods, in accordance with what is written: "On the day of good rewards, there will be no memory of evils", and again: "an affliction of one hour destroys the memory of pleasures". Thus, to the extent that the former desires were born in tribulation, members of the new creation will never enjoy them in the wayward manner of the Epicureans. COMMENTARY ON ISAIAH 18:!3 [pages 272-273: ANCIENT CHRISTIAN COMMENTARY ON SCRIPTURE OLD TESTAMENT XI ISAIAH 40-66. Edited by Mark W. Elliott. General Editor, Thomas C. Oden. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, Copyright 2007 q.v.

GOD SAVE US. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
:pray
 
Hello Handy,

I have thoroughly read this chapter now and the following chapter (ch. 66) and have seen the simplicity and directness in which it was lain out, and what seems to be its immediate intent and context. However I am not about to get holy on you with some masterful interpretation, but rather humble on you, and say that the interpretation of the end part of Isaiah is not a simple one in light of what we know from the NT. Of course you already have sensed that, and many commentators and scholars have the same issue of having to explain the suggestion of mortality after the creation of the new Heaven and new Earth.

The first thing of importance to note, though, is the close terminology relationship between Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21. There, of course, is first the mention in both passages about the new Heaven and Earth, then there is the mention of the New Jerusalem in both, there is a parallel of "His people" (Rev. 21:3) and "My people" (Isa. 65:19), and also the promise of no more weeping is in both. So we see then that in John's vision it is pulling strongly on imagery of this passage in Isaiah 65 and it is possibly suggestive that John also sees the remainder of Isaiah 65 in a positive light, for it clearly says "there will no longer be any death" (Rev 21:4) which has a certain level of parallelization to Isaiah's decription of greatly expanded lifespans. It is perhaps then the intent of what is being said and conveyed in Isaiah that stands of the most importance regardless of what we may infer from the literal wording. Since Isaiah actually says there will be no more weeping, death (which is traditionally mourned for) must not be the major issue here.

In my "The Expositors Bible Commentary" for Proverbs-Isaiah (vol. 6 in the set) published by Zondervan, Geoffrey W. Grogan who wrote the Isaiah section of commentary writes on this issue:

Grogan on Isaiah 65 said:
"The picture given in v.20, taken literally, promises greatly extended but not infinite life; yet v.19 declares that weeping will be banished! This suggests that we are meant to dwell on the positive blessings outlined in v.20 and not on their negative implications. Nevertheless, if we take the references to death seriously, we have here a blessed but not ideal state, not quite parallel, therefore, to the whole of Revelation 21:4 (for fuller comment, see the Introduction, pp. 450-53)."

So then we have a consideration to make of whether this is to be interpreted literally or not. If not then it is meant only to be illustrative of incalculably long lives, which could be seen as a sort of description and metaphor for eternal life. If, however, our hermenutic presses us to understand it as literally as possible we are faced with the possibility that something slightly different is being described here than in Rev. 21:4. Mr. Grogan in the refered-to introduction gives a broader discussion of interpretive possibilities concerning (correctly balanced) mixed applications of spiritual and literal understandings of passages in Isaiah as a whole:

Grogan - Introduction to Isaiah said:
"In many cases the NT gives clear guidance. As suggested above, Acts 13:46-48; 26:19-23 interpret Isaiah 42:6-7; 49:6-7 spiritually; and in Galatians 4:25-27 Paul clearly applies Isaiah 54:1 to "the Jerusalem that is above," the mother of all who by faith are children of Abraham. Isaiah 59:20-21, however, is taken literally, though it should be noted that Romans 11, where the latter is quoted, simply tells us that "all Israel" will be converted and saved, without specifying the mode of its existance as a saved people.

We can of course be sure that when a promise is made of conditions that fall short of perfection - as, for instance, when life is lengthened but death is not abolished (65:20) - this does not apply to the perfected Church but is best related to millenial conditions. Also, pictures of judgment - even universal judgment - that threaten death to most, but not to all unbelievers (24:6-13), must relate not to the ultimate judgment of the second death but to a great judgment on earth. On the other hand, references to 'new heavens and a new earth' (65:17; 66:22) presuppose the advent of God's new order, where all will be perfect and which, according to Revelation 21-22, lies beyond the millenium.

There may be passages that present us with continuing problems of interpretation, where it is not plain whether we should understand them literally or spiritually. Perhaps that is what we should expect. We are never promised complete understanding of biblical prophecies before fulfillment. Their main purpose is to keep us expectant, obedient, and trustful and to provide, in their fulfillment, evidence of the faithfulness of God to his Word. In the fulfilled events themselves, God will be seen to be true."

So I can only advocate a humble and cautious approach to understanding this Scripture, and I do especially like his final point of how "knowing in part" is perhaps as it is meant to be ("what we should expect") when it comes to understanding prophecy, and our real expected role is to be expectant of fulfillment and obedient to what is revealed. However that may still leave us with a paradox in our minds. Karl Barth once refered to a principle of faith in his Commentary on The Epistle to the Romans of something he called "Krisis" in which one realizes the essential paradoxes of the truths of what God has done and who He is, which in fact cannot not be "apprehended" outside of faith (and thus reverently forces us to exhibit faith in order to reckon with and acknowledge the amazing realization), and by faith alone one comes to the true realization that the paradox is essential to acknowledging all of God's truth (see here for more). We could indeed leave it at that, to our faith (which we should have anyway), but others have yet sought to indeed see a more millenial description in the end part of Isaiah 65 despite the mention of the new Heavens and Earth.

Merrill F. Unger in his "Unger's Commentary on the Old Testament" sees in Isaiah 65 a kind of 'telescoping' of the millenium and eternity together, where the imagery in that chapter is describing an imminent anticipation of the eternal blessed state described in Revelation 21 (while not yet describing the full perfections seen then). He writes in his commentary:

Unger on Isaiah 65 said:
"A Prophetic Portrait of the Kingdom Age. 65:17-25

Ten features of the Millenium are given:
(1) 17a. the millenial earth will anticipate the earth in the eternal state (Rev. 21:1-22:5). For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth (Isaiah 66:22). Isaiah's vision, while glimpsing the Kingdom age, the last ordered age in time, is projected into enternity. He saw the Millenium merging into the final state of bliss and having an everlasting feature to it, according to the Davidic Covenant (2 sam. 7:13, 16). So the prophecy employs language that, although applicable to a degree to millenial conditions, will be fully realized on the regenerated earth, which will follow the post millenial renovation by fire (2 Pet. 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1; cf. Heb. 12:26-28).
(2) 17b. The millenial earth will witness an extensive, but not total, lifting of the curse. And the former (heaven and earth) shall not be remebered, nor come to mind. With the wicked purged out, both of Israel and the nations (Rev. 19:11-21), including Satan and demons (Zech. 13:2; Rev. 20;1-3), the satanic world system, both religious (17:1-18) and political (18:1-24), will be destroyed at Christ's second advent, and many features of pre-Fall Edenic bliss will result. Those things are so wonderful in the prophetic foreview that they blend in Isaiah's vision with eternal conditions, of which they are a thrilling harbinger.
[...skipping for space consideration...]
(4) 20. Antediluvian longevity will be restored in the Kingdom age. There shall be no more in it (from that time onward) an infant of days, who shall live only a short time. Nor an old man that hath not fulfilled his days. No one shall die without attaining a full old age. For the child (youth) shall die an hundred years old, that is, be accounted a mere youngster if he should die at the age of one hundred.
But (rather, "and") the sinner who dies at the age of one hundred shall be thought (deemed) accursed (NASB; lit. Heb.), shall be considered under the curse of sin, which is death (cf. Gen 3:19). This passage clearly reveals that the curse will not be completely removed, for death will not be destroyed or sin removed till after the Millenium (1 Cor. 15:26; Rev. 20:11-15), preluding the sinless, curseless eternal state (21:8, 27; 22:15).

Such an interpretive approach may not be without its problems, but I think Unger may be on to something about how we may see glimpses of the millenial state and the eternal state together here. However, as said before, it is best to let Scripture stand according to its own word, even if that means we must admit we do not fully understand it. Prophecy is for our anticipation and appropriate preparation and reaction to God's Word as we believe it by faith. What God says will come to pass will come to pass, even if we do not always understand the means. Humbleness and fidelity to the Scripture (paradox or not) is always the best approach in situations like this.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
That is about as comprehensive as I could get, so please forgive the length. My fingers hurt now from typing all that commentary. :D
 
I agree with CyberJosh that to hold it to strict literal wording might leave one a bit neglectful of the concept being conveyed.


Isaiah 65
(17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The same concept can be seen here:



2 Corinthians 5
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
It's not really talking about discarding an old one and "replacing" with a new one, but about the change in the "condition" of the same one that already exists.
 
Handy, hang in there! But you did ask to be put on the bottom of the pile, huh?;)

But don't stop with just these verses of the [New Heavens +]! Read verses 21-25 for what we will be doing in our country of the recreated New Earth. Then while you have THE BOOK (:)) open check out chapter 66:15-17 for who will not be saved! Then still Inspiration DOCUMENTS that you have it right in verses 22-23.

---Elijah
 
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