Israel is not a Nation PART TWO - Preterist Challenge

[nonbelieverforums]

Here is a little video for all you Atheists and Skeptics !!

Watch how the bible predicted the rebirth of Israel almost to the day.

Is this a coincidence ? Is there a logical explaination ?


http://www.christian.tv/index.php?modul ... ter&cid=22

Click on "The Rebirth of Israel"

 

[RND]

Grant Jeffery? Rapture nonsense.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

RND would you like to respond to the topic of the thread.. rather then judging the man..?

Otherwise change the topic in another thread !

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Here is a little video for all you Atheists and Skeptics !!

Watch how the bible predicted the rebirth of Israel almost to the day.

Is this a coincidence ? Is there a logical explaination ?


http://www.christian.tv/index.php?modul ... ter&cid=22

Click on "The Rebirth of Israel"

Grant Jeffery? Rapture nonsense.

I love Amazing Facts! Must explain why I'm a Seventh-day Adventist!

Oi vey,, no wonder.. never mind !

 

[RND]

RND would you like to respond to the topic of the thread.. rather then judging the man..?

Otherwise change the topic in another thread !

The topic of the thread was responded to. Grant Jeffery is a confused "rapturist" that spreads the very dangerous message that modern day "secular" Israel has a prophetic destiny that it has yet to fulfill. Worse, he the "secret rapture" doctrine espoused by him and his ilk is both false and Biblically unsound. It is a dangerous doctrine that teaches if you don't get saved the first go round you can get saved in the second, seven-year go round.

So in answer to your thread I did answer the topic: Grant Jeffery? Rapture nonsense.

 

[RND]

Oi vey,, no wonder.. never mind !

It's oy vey BTW, not "oi." And I would put the most nominal SDA historicist up against any of your "rapturist" any day of the week and twice on sabbath.

You are perpetuating false and unscriptural doctrine.

 

[Sinthesis]

Here is a little video for all you Atheists and Skeptics !!

Watch how the bible predicted the rebirth of Israel almost to the day.

Is this a coincidence ? Is there a logical explaination ?


http://www.christian.tv/index.php?modul ... ter&cid=22

Click on "The Rebirth of Israel"

Grant Jeffery is just wrong.

First, Grant Jeffery misinterprets Ezekiel 4. The 390 days for Israel and 40 days for Judah represent the years of each respective kingdom's iniquity and NOT their years of punishment. Jeroboam defiled Israel beginning approximately 390yrs before (1 Kings 12:28), and Manasseh defiled Judah for a generation, or aproximately 40yrs (2 Kings 23:26). Added together they are 430yrs, which to any good Jew of the time would represent exile; originally in Egypt but now bondage in Babylon. Therefore, the 430yrs represents God's people's iniquity resulting in their bondage. Further, the duration of the bondage was always to be 70yrs and not 430yrs (Jeremiah 25:11). It was God who brought them back to the promised land after the 70yrs were fulfilled (Jeremiah 29:10). So there is no scriptural basis for God to then immediately condemn the Jews to a further 7-fold punishment multiple of a mythical "remaining 360yrs".

Second, even if Grant Jeffery had correctly uncovered a hidden prophecy condemning Israel for 2520yrs after the Edict of Restoration, his math is wrong. The date 907200 days prior to May 15, 1948AD (Gregorian) is Av 17, 3224 (Hebrew) or July 17, 537BC (Gregorian) plus or minus a day. This is months off of Grant Jeffery's undefined starting day in the seventh month (Nisan) of 536BC, which he no doubt assumes because of Ezra and Nehemiah.

Attributing a false prophecy to God is blasphemy :naughty and counterproductive when trying to convert nonbelievers.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Sinthesis:

Do me a favor.. you are free to debate.. but becareful of your accusations about my intentions. Christ judges us by our hearts.

"blasphemy and counterproductive" Scripture please.

I could say the same thing to you about the entire preterist doctrine . Have you brought any non believers to faith in the past ten years under any doctrine ?? I know the answer.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis:

Do me a favor.. you are free to debate.. but becareful of your accusations about my intentions. Christ judges us by our hearts.

"blasphemy and counterproductive" Scripture please.

I could say the same thing to you about the entire preterist doctrine . Have you brought any non believers to faith in the past ten years under any doctrine ?? I know the answer.

I don't recall EVER questioning your intentions. I simply responded to your "Challenge".

When Grant Jeffrey attributes to God a demonstrably false prophecy (which he claims credit for finding himself) he is committing blasphemy in much the same way as Hananiah the prophet.

Your ministry does not need false arguments to convert nonbelievers. The truth should suffice, because if you attempt to establish the foundation of a new convert's faith on the shifting sand of easily refuted arguments rather than the solid rock of the Word then you are doing that person a disservice. It IS counterproductive.

Just be more wary of the claims of Grant Jeffrey.

 

[veteran]

What about this prophecy?

Jer 24:6-7
6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.
(KJV)

A good deal of the house of Judah certainly was plucked up and removed after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. And they had not returned to found the nation there again until 1948.

 

[RND]

What about this prophecy?

Jer 24:6-7
6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.
(KJV)

A good deal of the house of Judah certainly was plucked up and removed after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. And they had not returned to found the nation there again until 1948.

Or more properly God set His eyes on them for good through the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and the land referred to here is the kingdom of God. Nor did God "pull them down" nor "pluck them up." The COI did this to themselves by rejecting the Messiah.

But in all actuality God indeed return the COI taken into the land of the Chaldeans back into Judea just as He said He would some 500 years before the birth of Christ and the spreading of the Gospel to the gentiles. He kept His promise. Israel did not keep theirs.

 

[Drew]

What about this prophecy?

Jer 24:6-7
6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.
(KJV)

A good deal of the house of Judah certainly was plucked up and removed after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. And they had not returned to found the nation there again until 1948.

This prophecy has already been fulfilled. If you think that Jeremiah is talking about the ethnic nation of Israel being returned to Palestine then, quite naturally, you will think of this text a certain way.

But I suggest that what appears to be a prophecy about ethinc Israel returning to Palestine is really a prophecy of the Jew + Gentile family of faith inheriting all of creation.

The arguments to support this are complex and lengthy and I will not get into this right now except to say that both Paul and Jesus radically re-define who "true Israel" is, and it turns out to not be ethnic Israel.

 

[toddm]

Wow..there are actually some partial preterists on this board! I was beginning to feel alone.

 

[Drew]

Wow..there are actually some partial preterists on this board! I was beginning to feel alone.

Well, I suspect we are still the minority. Are you familiar with NT Wright's views on this issue - he is a great influence for me.

 

[Vic C.]

Wow..there are actually some partial preterists on this board! I was beginning to feel alone.

I'm 1/2 Pre Wrath, 1/2 Historicist and 1/2 partial preterist. :D

 

[RND]

Wow..there are actually some partial preterists on this board! I was beginning to feel alone.

I'm 1/2 Pre Wrath, 1/2 Historicist and 1/2 partial preterist. :D

It can't be easy admitting why you're so messed up! :D

 

[toddm]

Wow..there are actually some partial preterists on this board! I was beginning to feel alone.

Well, I suspect we are still the minority. Are you familiar with NT Wright's views on this issue - he is a great influence for me.

Not really. I've read more from Kenneth Gentry, RC Sproul, & Gary DeMar

 

[veteran]

This doesn't show God has forgotten His promise to the flesh seed of Israel at all. And the Apostle Paul gave this AFTER he had already mentioned the "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" message.

Rom 11:1-7
1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how He maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.(KJV)

The subject there is about the flesh seed of Israel, Paul's brethren born of Israel. Sorry to dissapoint, but God's Word says different about the eventual restoration of the 12 tribes of Israel.

James 1:1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(KJV)

Even James wasn't confused about this. Come to think of it, neither was our Lord Jesus...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.(KJV)

The FINAL layout in the Holy Land of those twelve tribes is given in the last chapter of Ezekiel 48. And our Lord Jesus even showed us this through His servant John...

Rev 21:10-12
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:(KJV)


So when the re-establishing of the state of Israel in 1948 happenned, it should have been a sign for all of God's people, especially us who have believed on The Savior Jesus Christ. Meaning, we who have believed should not be so ready to cast off the seed of Israel that still refuses to believe today, because that can all change before the end of this world. He certainly never cast away the seed of Israel that did believe, as Paul showed.

Not every prophecy in the Old Testament has been fulfilled yet, and the prophecy of the restoration of the twelve tribes of Israel back to the lands of promise under Christ in final (per Ezekiel 37 and 48) is certainly one of them. THAT will always stand as a marker for what time we're in per God's Salvation Plan through His Son. That event has yet to happen today, obviously.

This world as it is today is NOT a sign of Christ's Kingdom to come. Instead, this world is being ruled by Christ's enemies! That's who is in power over the nations on earth today, and The LORD is allowing His enemies to rule today. When Christ comes that will all change. So this time today is not comparable to Christ's coming Kingdom, especially when our enemies who seek to destroy us have control over this earth. Wake up.

 

[veteran]

If the twelve tribes of Israel are no longer importaant per God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ, then the name Israel should no more be mentioned in the New Testament associated with Christ's Kingdom. Well, sorry Preterists, because my previous post only points to some New Testament Scripture that declares Israel's longevity per God's Plan, and I'm not just talking about believing Gentiles under the spiritual seed of Israel concept of Rom.9. God including a flesh remnant of Israel under His Grace per Romans 11:1-5 means His promises continue through them firstly.

In Hosea is a prophecy to the house of Israel under Ephraim. That means the ten tribes of Israel who were never known as Jews. God split Israel into two separaate houses and kingdoms after Solomon's days. The word Jew never applied to the ten tribes of Israel. In Hosea God showed how the ten tribes fell away from Him and went into Baal worship. Most everyone remembers the days of Jezebel and Ahab, and Jezebel's paganism of Baal worship, causing the ten tribes to fall. That's when Elijah cried to God that he was the only prophet of God left. That's when God told him that He has preserved an elect remnant of 7,000 to Himself that had not bowed the knee to Baal.

God then caused the ten tribes to be scattered through the countries, and that He would allow them to persue her false idols to the full. But then, the day would come when He would turn them back to Him, and the ten tribes would put away her idols and turn back to The Father, and He would lead them, and they would become Ami (My people) again.

The ten tribes were taken captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes first. Archaeological evidence still exists today to show their captivity north of Babylon (like the Behistun Rock in northern Iraq). While there they were given new names; they forgot their heritage as part of Israel. Per the research done by Prof. Leroy Waterman in the Assyrian Tablets for what their new names became, the name Cimmerian comes forth. And it was the Cimmerian tribes that migrated north and westward into ancient Europe which established the European nations of today. Another branch of them were the Scythians which followed the Cimmerians into western Europe. These peoples went through the narrow passages of the Black Sea and the Caucasus Mountain range to get into Europe, becoming known as Caucasians. That's where the name Caucasian came from.

These peoples were made up of the Celts, Gauls, Norsk, Germani, Franks, Jutes, Picts, Normans, etc., which were the founding peoples of the European nations. That was history, regardless of whatever system of belief one wants to hold to.

When those peoples got into Europe, what did they worship? They worship the old Baal practices they brought with them from the east. Because of splits among them, and the start of new languages from that, they each had a different name for that old style pagan Bel worship which originated in ancient Babylonia.

But when it was time for Christ to come, and The Gospel to be preached, what majority of peoples accepted Christ Jesus as God's promised Savior? What areas were those seven Churches of Asia our Lord Jesus gave His Messages to? They were in Asia Minor, which includes part of eastern Europe. The Apostle Paul preached to Romans, and wanted to go to Spain. He himself was from Cilicia, an area where many of the Cimmerian peoples migrated to per the historian Herodotus. And Britain actually was the first nation to accept Christ Jesus on a national level, in the 1st century per the historian Bede, involving the Caldee Church. Augustine even complained of how he was ill received by Christian bishops that had already long been established in Britain by that time (around 500 A.D.). Joseph of Arimethea was the uncle of Jesus. In the British Isles Joseph was known as the "tinman", because he was a merchant that made trips to the Isles which was well known of in his day. It's the reason the legend of Christ's cup is attached to the area of Britain. In time, after The Gospel was preached to those nations, Christ was received among so many there, putting away the old idols of Baal and ideas of Val Halla, they become known as the western Christian nations. Many of the Gentiles among them where they were scattered also believed on Christ Jesus.

It's that founding remnant of flesh Israel of the ten tribes that migrated to form the Christian nations, which is that remnant according to the election of grace which Paul was talking about in the Romans 11:1-5 Scripture.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm one that believes in the existence of Israel. Here's a simple text that proves it:

Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.


Israel is Israel, not replacement theology in which believers (or "Spiritual Israel--- whatever that means) get the promises of so-called unbelieving Israel. That's merely spiritualizing everything. God ordained a physical people and family to do this, and while not all of them are believers, the promises are with them and indeed, he says that He will put the law their hearts one day:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This indisputably proves that Israel was, is and always will be a promised people before God, and that these same people will be inheritors of the New Covenant as they had the covenant of becoming many nations, a great nation, powerful people, wealthy, and kings to rule over them from the loins of Abraham (physical seed). In short, God is not through with the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and anyone who says otherwise just contradicted two very clear prophecies. The bible is mainly a book (including the NT) about Israel, God's chosen people. Misunderstand that, and one believes a bible of their own imagination.