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Israel is not a Nation PART TWO - Preterist Challenge

veteran said:
This doesn't show God has forgotten His promise to the flesh seed of Israel at all. And the Apostle Paul gave this AFTER he had already mentioned the "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" message.

Rom 11:1-7
1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how He maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.(KJV)

The subject there is about the flesh seed of Israel, Paul's brethren born of Israel. Sorry to dissapoint, but God's Word says different about the eventual restoration of the 12 tribes of Israel.
I believe that you misunderstand this passage if you think it in any supports the notion that ethnic Israel has any special status this side of the resurrection.

The text is simply Paul’s argument that even though many Jews have been hardened to loss, there is a remnant that has not been. This in no way endorses any notion that the Jews will return to Israel or that Israel retains any special status in the eyes of God.
 
veteran said:
If the twelve tribes of Israel are no longer importaant per God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ, then the name Israel should no more be mentioned in the New Testament associated with Christ's Kingdom.
This argument does not really work since it is so clear that Paul has two Israel categories in mind - one, of course, the descendents of Jacob. But Paul clearly believes in a 2nd Israel, a "true Israel if you will. And the members of this "true" Israel are both Jews and Gentiles.

The same is true of Jesus. He repeatedly "re-defines" the constitution of "true" Israel. When Jesus calls specifically twelve disciples, He is not picking this number without a specific symbolic meaning. In calling the 12 disciples, Jesus is effectively re-defining who "true" Israel is. And the composition of this "true" Israel does not map to ethnic Israel.
 
veteran said:
If the twelve tribes of Israel are no longer importaant per God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ, then the name Israel should no more be mentioned in the New Testament associated with Christ's Kingdom. Well, sorry Preterists, because my previous post only points to some New Testament Scripture that declares Israel's longevity per God's Plan, and I'm not just talking about believing Gentiles under the spiritual seed of Israel concept of Rom.9. God including a flesh remnant of Israel under His Grace per Romans 11:1-5 means His promises continue through them firstly.

In Hosea is a prophecy to the house of Israel under Ephraim. That means the ten tribes of Israel who were never known as Jews. God split Israel into two separaate houses and kingdoms after Solomon's days. The word Jew never applied to the ten tribes of Israel. In Hosea God showed how the ten tribes fell away from Him and went into Baal worship. Most everyone remembers the days of Jezebel and Ahab, and Jezebel's paganism of Baal worship, causing the ten tribes to fall. That's when Elijah cried to God that he was the only prophet of God left. That's when God told him that He has preserved an elect remnant of 7,000 to Himself that had not bowed the knee to Baal.

God then caused the ten tribes to be scattered through the countries, and that He would allow them to persue her false idols to the full. But then, the day would come when He would turn them back to Him, and the ten tribes would put away her idols and turn back to The Father, and He would lead them, and they would become Ami (My people) again.

The ten tribes were taken captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes first. Archaeological evidence still exists today to show their captivity north of Babylon (like the Behistun Rock in northern Iraq). While there they were given new names; they forgot their heritage as part of Israel. Per the research done by Prof. Leroy Waterman in the Assyrian Tablets for what their new names became, the name Cimmerian comes forth. And it was the Cimmerian tribes that migrated north and westward into ancient Europe which established the European nations of today. Another branch of them were the Scythians which followed the Cimmerians into western Europe. These peoples went through the narrow passages of the Black Sea and the Caucasus Mountain range to get into Europe, becoming known as Caucasians. That's where the name Caucasian came from.

These peoples were made up of the Celts, Gauls, Norsk, Germani, Franks, Jutes, Picts, Normans, etc., which were the founding peoples of the European nations. That was history, regardless of whatever system of belief one wants to hold to.

When those peoples got into Europe, what did they worship? They worship the old Baal practices they brought with them from the east. Because of splits among them, and the start of new languages from that, they each had a different name for that old style pagan Bel worship which originated in ancient Babylonia.

But when it was time for Christ to come, and The Gospel to be preached, what majority of peoples accepted Christ Jesus as God's promised Savior? What areas were those seven Churches of Asia our Lord Jesus gave His Messages to? They were in Asia Minor, which includes part of eastern Europe. The Apostle Paul preached to Romans, and wanted to go to Spain. He himself was from Cilicia, an area where many of the Cimmerian peoples migrated to per the historian Herodotus. And Britain actually was the first nation to accept Christ Jesus on a national level, in the 1st century per the historian Bede, involving the Caldee Church. Augustine even complained of how he was ill received by Christian bishops that had already long been established in Britain by that time (around 500 A.D.). Joseph of Arimethea was the uncle of Jesus. In the British Isles Joseph was known as the "tinman", because he was a merchant that made trips to the Isles which was well known of in his day. It's the reason the legend of Christ's cup is attached to the area of Britain. In time, after The Gospel was preached to those nations, Christ was received among so many there, putting away the old idols of Baal and ideas of Val Halla, they become known as the western Christian nations. Many of the Gentiles among them where they were scattered also believed on Christ Jesus.

It's that founding remnant of flesh Israel of the ten tribes that migrated to form the Christian nations, which is that remnant according to the election of grace which Paul was talking about in the Romans 11:1-5 Scripture.

The above is just another variant of a false teaching known as British Israelism. For anyone interested, a quick Google search will provide plenty of information to debunk this foolishness. British Israelism is not supportable by any credible archeological, linguistic, genetic, or biblical evidence. However, it does provide the foundation for the heretical racist ideology of the Christian Identity movement. :crazy
 
I don't know about any such Christian Identity movement, but I have heard some appy the term British-Israel to the idea, but those are mostly Jews who do that, the same ones that try to say even the ten tribes of Israel are Jews, when they never were per history. Some of those Jews also try to omit the continued existence of the ten tribes in the world even today. And what's funny about that is how many of the orthodox Jewish rabbi readily admit the existence of the ten tribes still scattered among the Gentiles today, and teach God's promise that He will re-establish them again in final, and join them with Judah (Jews).

So there's even a HUGE RIFF disagreement about this subject between many Jewish people and their own rabbi.

So people, don't believe all the baloney you hear against this matter about the ten tribes of Israel still existing today. You CAN Google the Behistun Rock if you want to see archeaological proof of the ten tribe's captivity in ancient times, now northern Iraq. Might want to look up the Jehu Stele also, and the work professor Leroy Waterman of the University of Michigan did in translation of the Assyrian Tablets.
 
Yup,,,,,,,,,When the 10 tribes were scattered,,,,they became known as lost,,,not to God but to themself......They migrated over the Causcus mountains ,,,and became known as Caucasians....

Easy history research tells us this,,,this is where you get the "Celts, Gauls, Norsk, Germani, Franks, Jutes, Picts, Normans" Protectors of the faith,,,,,,What so racist about Israel being filled wih Caucasians,,,shhh Im not white and I dont see it racist.......
 
toddm said:
Wow..there are actually some partial preterists on this board! I was beginning to feel alone. :)
<~~ partial. Even open to full preterism. But I don't believe everything is finished. That would kinda suck. Lol. ;) :D
 
NIGHTMARE said:
Yup,,,,,,,,,When the 10 tribes were scattered,,,,they became known as lost,,,not to God but to themself......They migrated over the Causcus mountains ,,,and became known as Caucasians....

Easy history research tells us this,,,this is where you get the "Celts, Gauls, Norsk, Germani, Franks, Jutes, Picts, Normans" Protectors of the faith,,,,,,What so racist about Israel being filled wih Caucasians,,,shhh Im not white and I dont see it racist.......

The racist card always gets pulled by people who do not understand how to defend their position other than name-calling. "Chosen" never meant superiority, but a responsibility. The Lord even called the Israelites a "Stiff-necked" people and clearly said in the bible that they were not inherently above the rest, but rather any advantage they had was from the Lord and as such we should be thankful for that if we participate.

One can always understand where a person is coming from by the name-calling that is used. The bottom line is a profound jealousy that whoever does the name-calling is not the chosen race. Why are they jealous? Because they think that chosen means "better". And that tells you a lot. Just be glad God did not chose them because with that mindset they would Lord it over the others (we have enough despots these days). And with that mind-set, it further demonstrates their abysmally low misunderstanding of scripture. Actually, with the Lost tribes Anglo-Saxon theory, the bible states that these nations would include a mixture of people and that was one of the identifying marks. Rather, the most diverse people have been ironically labeled "intolerant" and "racist" by the rest who seem to be far more clannish themselves. (Or, the pot calling the kettle)
 
Drew said:
veteran said:
If the twelve tribes of Israel are no longer importaant per God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ, then the name Israel should no more be mentioned in the New Testament associated with Christ's Kingdom.
This argument does not really work since it is so clear that Paul has two Israel categories in mind - one, of course, the descendents of Jacob. But Paul clearly believes in a 2nd Israel, a "true Israel if you will. And the members of this "true" Israel are both Jews and Gentiles.

The same is true of Jesus. He repeatedly "re-defines" the constitution of "true" Israel. When Jesus calls specifically twelve disciples, He is not picking this number without a specific symbolic meaning. In calling the 12 disciples, Jesus is effectively re-defining who "true" Israel is. And the composition of this "true" Israel does not map to ethnic Israel.

I agree 1,000 percent about the Biblical concept of spiritual Israel. But what you apparently don't understand is that the word Israel was the new name given to Jacob to represent God's Birthright blessings, which is part of His Salvation to all that believe. The name means to prevail with God's help, and is the same idea as to overcome through our Lord Jesus, as used in Revelation. Also, when God makes a promise involving election, He doesn't go back on it, as Paul also showed in Romans 11:29 about God's gifts and calling being without repentance. This is why Ezekiel 48 shows the 12 tribes of Israel established in final back in the old inheritances like it had under king David (see Ezekiel 37 also).

Why would even Christ's Apostles ask our Lord Jesus the following after His resurrection?

Acts 1:6
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, "Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
(KJV)

They weren't asking Him IF the kingdom would be restored to Israel, they were asking Him about the WHEN. Why would they ask that? Because they obviously knew the prophecy that it will be, which is especially what Ezekiel 37 and 48 reveal. Isaiah covers quite a bit of that restoration too, as also in several Books of the Minor Prophets. Like Paul said in Romans 11, God has not cast away His people which He foreknew. Until the restoration, it's because of the matter of an elect remnant of that seed with a responsibility to fufill in Christ Jesus, so that His Salvation would be taken to the four corners of the earth. That in no way detracts from believing Gentiles being in that duty also. Both are to do it together, and become one Body in Christ Jesus. But as for the remnant of Israel being God's election, no one but God can take that away, and He didn't, for only those of Israel that refuse to believe are cut off.

Why is this not a popular teaching today? Look at all the theories in the seminaries of how they think Christ's Salvation and Kingdom is going to be established. Some believe Christ's Kingdom is already established on earth today. Some believe His Kingdom is going to be up beyond the stars without God's created earth involved. But God's Word shows His Salvation, and the kingdom of Israel being established back in the original inheritances of the Holy Land promised to the children of Israel per God's Birthright to Israel, with Christ as KING over them along with believing Gentiles, on the earth.

I guess that idea per Scripture is just too limiting and cornered for many.
 
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