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Israel is not a Nation ???

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Israel became a nation in 1948. I have heard from both Parousa and Sinthesis that Pretertists maintain this is fraudulent. They say Israel is not a nation. This is obviously important to the framework and timing to the futurist theory as to when entime events begin.

I would like to hear from everyone on this issue. Who proclaims a nation ? What would have to happen in the Pretertist view for Israel to be a legitimate nation? Is Israel a nation or not?



- Sinthesis- The 'State of Israel' established in 1948 is a parliamentary democracy.

Is Israel a 'nation' because the UN proclaimed it?

Will you accept a single-world-religion if the UN proclaims it?



- Parousa - Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Isreal apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel.
 
Im not a preterist ,but I understand the veiw that the nation that calls itself Israel is not the true Israel.I even believe this veiw.If you look at how the word is first applied in scripture then theres no way you could say the goverment that calls itself Israel today could be Israel.It is a name given to someone who has overcome.Ive read in the scripture discriptions of Christ and at the same time calling him by the name of Israel so I understand there is no nation of Israel apart from Christ.You could say Israel is a scatterd sheep as of now that will be gatherd at the time of Christ's coming even though there is a one who has claimed to have gatherd Israel in the middle east today.Do you believe that goverment which calls itself Israel that claims to have gatherd the lost sheep of the house of Israel or do you believe it is a lier and deciever?
 
Ok then from a political stand point who should delcare a country a nation. Clearly most of the world consisders Israel a nation. Who else besides the Preterests and perhaps those of the muslim faith consider this claim fraud.

Was Israel not not a nation in the first century ?

http://knol.google.com/k/united-church- ... freubl/37#

2. A Jewish homeland had to be reestablished in the Middle East

Geopolitically, the central focus of end-time events is Jerusalem and its environs, what many people refer to as the Holy Land.

Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24. Notice Luke's account of Christ's long prophecy that answered the disciples' questions: "Teacher, . . . when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" (Luke 21:7).

In response, Jesus showed that Jerusalem would be the central focus of the political and military upheavals that would immediately precede His return: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near . . . For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" (verses 20-22).

Anyone living a century ago would have found these words nearly impossible to comprehend. Jerusalem in ancient times had been fought over countless times, but for four centuries from 1517 the city had been at peace within the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire. Jews lived there as a minority under Turkish rule. But this was going to change dramatically during the course of the 20th century.

It had to change for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy to take place.

The Old Testament prophet Zechariah was used by God to reveal a great deal about end-time events and the second coming of the Messiah. Zechariah lived and prophesied more than 500 years before Christ's first coming, yet his prophetic book tells us a great deal about our world of today.

In Zechariah 12:2-3 God says: "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah [the Jews inhabiting the land of Israel] and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it."

In verse 9 He adds, "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

Reading these verses, it is possible to think that they apply to ancient events, as Jerusalem has been fought over repeatedly down through the ages. However, chapter 14 makes clear that this is talking about future, not past, events. The time setting is immediately before Jesus Christ's return.

"Behold, the day of the Lord is coming . . . For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity . . . Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle.

"And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south" (Zechariah 14:1-4).

Clearly the last few lines of this prophecy remain to be fulfilled.

Further in this same chapter we read of how those nations that came against Jerusalem will have to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jesus Christ (verse 16).

These chapters of Zechariah are a prophecy about the events that precede and include the second coming of Jesus. A Jewish-controlled Jerusalem is notice-ably the central focus.

Shortly before Zechariah, another Jewish prophet named Daniel lived during the time of the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. His book speaks of the Jews' daily sacrifices being cut off in the end time (Daniel 12:11; see verses 1-13)â€â€an event that had a forerunner in the temple defilement under Syrian ruler Antiochus Epiphanes in the second century B.C.

However, Jesus Christ confirmed this as a future event to precede His return (compare Daniel 11:31; Matthew 24:15). This means that these sacrifices must first be reinstituted in Jerusalemâ€â€requiring Jewish rule over the city.

One hundred years ago such developments were hard to imagine for the simple reason that no independent Jewish political entity existed in the Middle East.

After rebelling against the Romans in A.D. 66 and again in 132, Judea was crushed and most of the remaining Jews were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. No Jewish homeland existed again until 1948 when the modern nation of Israel was established.

An independent Jewish homeland was merely a dream for a small group of zealots a century ago. It moved a step nearer during World War I, when forces of the British Commonwealth took control of Jerusalem from the Turks in December 1916. A few months later, the British government pledged itself to the establishment of an independent Jewish homeland in the ancient lands the Jews had inhabited for centuries.

It was to be another 30 years before the dream was realized in 1948. Yet since then tiny Israel has had to fight wars for survival in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and has suffered countless terrorist attacks and threats of annihilation from hostile neighbors determined to eliminate the Jewish state.

Once again, here is a prophecy that can now be fulfilled in our time.

3. The end-time king of the North and king of the South

In Daniel 11 we find an amazing prophecy about two leaders, the kings of the North and South, the heads of regions that were geographically north and south of the Holy Land. To understand this prophecy we have to go to the time of Alexander the Great, who lived near the end of the fourth century B.C., 200 years after Daniel.

Alexander figures prominently throughout the book of Daniel, even though Daniel did not know his name and never knew him personally. He couldn't have, since he died almost two centuries before Alexander appeared on the world stage.

But God revealed to Daniel that after Babylon, Persia would arise as the greatest power of the region, to be followed in turn by Greece. Not surprisingly, the prophecies regarding the rise of Greece are centered on Alexander the Great, one of the greatest conquerors in history.

Daniel 8 gives a vivid account of the coming clash between Persia and Greece. As you read it, remember that a horn symbolizes royal power and authority. Persia had "two horns and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last." This refers to the Medo-Persian Empire, the coming together of two nations or peoples. As foretold here in verse 3, the Persians rose to greatness after the Medes.

In verse 5 we read of Persia's later defeat by Alexander the Great: "And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes" (verse 5).

The "notable horn" or royal leader was Alexander the Great. The prophecy about his army not even touching the ground is a reference to the incredible speed with which he conquered the known world. All this was achieved in a very short time. Alexander died in 323 B.C. when he was only about 33 years old.

Even his sudden, unexpected death was prophesied: "The male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven" (verse 8).

When Alexander died, his empire was eventually divided between four of his generalsâ€â€the four "notable horns" mentioned here. Two of these established dynasties would have a profound effect on the Jewish people, caught in the middle between them. These two dynasties were the descendants of Seleucus, who ruled a vast empire from Antioch in Syria, north of Jerusalem, and Ptolemy, who ruled Egypt from Alexandria.

Daniel 11 is a long and detailed prophecy about the dynastic conflicts between these two powers, their respective leaders being referred to as "the king of the North" and "the king of the South." Of great significance is that whenever they went to battle against each other, the Jews got trampled on. This was to continue from the time of Alexander until the middle of the second century B.C., a period of almost two centuries.

Then, suddenly, the prophecy jumps down to the end time.

In verse 40 we read: "At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them and pass through. He shall also enter the Glorious Land [the Holy Land], and many countries shall be overthrown" (Daniel 11:40-41).

While we don't have space here to cover all the details, the latter part of Daniel's prophecy of the North-South conflict describes a clash of civilizations between the leader of a soon-coming European superpowerâ€â€a revived Roman Empire (successor to Seleucid Syrian rule)â€â€and a leader who is the successor to the Ptolemaic rule of Egypt, which is now part of the Islamic world. (To learn more, request or download our free booklet The Middle East in Bible Prophecy.)

We now see geopolitical conditions lining up for this inevitable clash. Here is yet another prophesied circumstance for which the stage has now been set within our lifetime!
 
Please Lord give me strength and patience!

The nation of Israel is the true nation of Israel! If you don't think so then explain to me how a tiny nation, despised and surrounded by enemies can grow to be so strong and so feared? The arabs are scared to death of Israel despite their rhetoric.

They defeated 9 enemies in record time during the 6-day war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

We always want to be first but in this case we( christians) are the younger sibling.
 
walter said:
Please Lord give me strength and patience!

The nation of Israel is the true nation of Israel! If you don't think so then explain to me how a tiny nation, despised and surrounded by enemies can grow to be so strong and so feared? The arabs are scared to death of Israel despite their rhetoric.

They defeated 9 enemies in record time during the 6-day war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

We always want to be first but in this case we( christians) are the younger sibling.

Your wiki link says there were three armies.Egypt ,Jordan and Syria.
The bible also says three.
Dan 7;24
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise;and another shall rise after them;and he shall be diverse from the first,and he shall subdue three kings.


Yes I agree with you,Even though Israel is diverse from the others,it's look is more strout than his fellows.

Dan 7;20
And of the ten horns that were in his head,and of the other which came up,and before whom three fell,even of that horn that had eyes,and a mouth that spake great very great things,whose look was more stout than his fellows.


Any more questions about this tiny horn?
 
then what about the little horn that speaks blasphemy? how does that fit into the prophecy of isreal.

jason
 
"nonbelieverforums" Ok then from a political stand point who should delcare a country a nation. Clearly most of the world consisders Israel a nation. Who else besides the Preterests and perhaps those of the muslim faith consider this claim fraud.

Was Israel not not a nation in the first century ?

To answer your question.Yes it was and then was not and yet is.

Rev 17;8
The beast that thou sawest was,and is not;and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,and go into perdition;and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder,whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,when they behold the beast that was,and is not,and yet is.
 
jasoncran said:
then what about the little horn that speaks blasphemy? how does that fit into the prophecy of isreal.

jason

All it ever speaks is blasphmy.
 
The land should call the land Judea, as Israel represents the 13 tribes not just one...
 
History as can be found in any forth grade jewish history book.

Five kings from the west.
Daniel 8;8
Macedinia,Roman,Byzantine,Ottoman and Great Britian.
Therefore the he goat waxed great; and when he was strong,the great horn was broken;and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven
Out of Great Britian came the country that calls itself Israel.
Daniel 8;9
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,which waxed exeedingly great,toward the south,and toward the east,and toward the pleasant land.
--------------------
.Beasts of the east.
Babylon
Daniel 7;4
The first was like a lion,and had eagle's wings;I beheld till the wings therof were plucked,and it was lifted up from the earth,and made to stand upon the feet as a man,and a man's heart was given to it.
Daniel 7;5
Persia
And behold another beast,a second,like to a bear,and it raised up itself on one side,and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it;and they said thus unto it,Arise,devour much flesh.
Sassanid,Caliphate,Seljuk and Salidin
Daniel 7;6
After this I beheld,and lo another,like a leopard,which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;the beast had also four heads;and dominion was given to it.
Daniel 7;7
Independent muslim states.
After this I saw in the night visions,and behold a forth beast,dreadful and terrible and strong exeedingly;and it had great iron teeth;it devoured and brake in pieces,and stamped the residue with the feet of it;and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;and it had ten horns.Daniel 7;8
Israel
I considerd the horns,and behold,there came up amoung them another little horn,before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots;and,behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man,and a mouth speaking great things.
Six day war
Daniel 7;20
And of the ten horns that were in his head,and of the other which came up,and before whom three fell;even of that horn that had eyes,and a mouth that spake very great things,whose look was more stout than his fellows.

They renderd thier dominion(Palistine) to the country that calls itself Israel.
Rev 17;17
For God hath put it in thier hearts to forfill his will,and to agree,and give thier kingdom unto the beast,until the Words of God shall be forfilled.

Rev17;10-11
And there are seven kings;five are fallen, and one is,and the other is not yet come;and when he cometh,he must continue a short space.And the beast that was,and is not,even he is the eighth ,and is of the seven,and goeth into perdition.

The seven kings that have reigned over Israel
Five that were fallen.
Egypt,Assyrian,Babylon,Persia,and Macedonia.
One that was at the time John wrote this-Rome.

Then came the Dispora
The one who would come and continue a short space,who the people of Israel were gatherd under-
Great britian.
The eighth is that kingdom that once was,then was not when John wrote this,but now is again today.
The goverment that calls itself by the name of Israel.
 
Jerusalem
Rev 17;15
And he saith unto me,The waters which thou sawest,where the whore sitteth,are peoples,and multitudes,and nations,and tongues.


And below is the demodraphics of Israel as taken from an encyclopedia.

Israel has two official languages, Hebrew and Arabic.[2] Hebrew is the primary language of the state and spoken by the majority of the population. Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority and Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab lands. Most Israelis can communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are in English and many schools begin to teach English in the early grades. As a country of immigrants, dozens of languages can be heard on the streets of Israel. A large influx of people from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia have made Russian and Amharic widely spoken in Israel. Between 1990 and 1994, the immigration of Jews from the former Soviet Union increased Israel's population by twelve percent.[224] Over the last decade, immigration flows have also included significant numbers of workers from countries such as Romania, Thailand, China, and a number of countries in Africa and South America; gauging precise numbers is difficult because of the presence of "undocumented" immigrants, but estimates run in the region of 200,000.

Rev 17;9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom.The seven heads are seven mountains,on which the woman sitteth.
These are Mt Gared,Mt Goath,Mt Acra,Mt Bezetha,Mt Moriah,Mt Opehl,and Mt Zion.

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23;35
That upon you may come all the rightous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of rightous Abel unto the blood of Zecharial son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

How many times have I seen people on this board say Rome is the one who killest the saints while Jesus says its Jerusalem.Well,If you were right then the word of God would be wrong when it says all that is shed upon the earth.

Mt 23;37
O Jerusalem,Jerusalem,thou that killest the prophets,and stonest them which are sent unto thee,how often would I have gatherd thy children together,even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,and ye would not!


When will you wake from you slumber?
 
Clues as to who is antichrist.
The antichrist proclaims Jesus is not the Messiah.

1 John 2;22
Who is a lier but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?He is an antichrist,that denieth the Father and the Son.

The antichrist says the Messiah has not yet come.

2 John 7
For many decievers are enterd into the world,who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.This is a deciever and an antichrist.

Remind me again what the people in Judea believe?
Remind me what they say with thier own lips?
Ive seen several people on this board blindly give thier support to antichrist without having any knowledge of what antichrist is.Yes I know most christians say these antichrists are God's chosen people but that doesnt make it so.They are only showing thier ignorance of the chosen.Little do these people know the chosen die at the hands of these antichrists that they support.
And the punishment of these antichrists in Judea is also written.

Luke 21;21-23
Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,that all things which are written may be forfilled.But woe unto them that are with child,and them that give suck,in those days.For there shall be great distress in the land,and wrath upon this people.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
walter said:
Please Lord give me strength and patience!

The nation of Israel is the true nation of Israel! If you don't think so then explain to me how a tiny nation, despised and surrounded by enemies can grow to be so strong and so feared? The arabs are scared to death of Israel despite their rhetoric.

They defeated 9 enemies in record time during the 6-day war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

We always want to be first but in this case we( christians) are the younger sibling.

Your wiki link says there were three armies.Egypt ,Jordan and Syria.
The bible also says three.
Dan 7;24
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise;and another shall rise after them;and he shall be diverse from the first,and he shall subdue three kings.


Yes I agree with you,Even though Israel is diverse from the others,it's look is more strout than his fellows.

Dan 7;20
And of the ten horns that were in his head,and of the other which came up,and before whom three fell,even of that horn that had eyes,and a mouth that spake great very great things,whose look was more stout than his fellows.


Any more questions about this tiny horn?


I said 9 "enemies", not three armies.
 
"walter"
I said 9 "enemies", not three armies.

Well now you know how that tiny country defeated those three.
It is written they shall serve the king of Babylon for 70 years and thats just what I expect.But I dont think the king of Babylon will last much longer than that.Many countries shall rise and destroy it including Persia.
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Ok then from a political stand point who should delcare a country a nation. Clearly most of the world consisders Israel a nation. Who else besides the Preterests and perhaps those of the muslim faith consider this claim fraud.
Why do you assume that preterists deny the State of Israel's right to exist? I support the State of Israel. This support is not based on my interpretation of the Bible, and it is not unconditional. The fact is that the 'State of Israel' established in 1948 is not the 'Nation of Israel' of various Bible prophecies.
 
Sinthesis said:
nonbelieverforums said:
Ok then from a political stand point who should delcare a country a nation. Clearly most of the world consisders Israel a nation. Who else besides the Preterests and perhaps those of the muslim faith consider this claim fraud.
Why do you assume that preterists deny the State of Israel's right to exist? I support the State of Israel. This support is not based on my interpretation of the Bible, and it is not unconditional. The fact is that the 'State of Israel' established in 1948 is not the 'Nation of Israel' of various Bible prophecies.

I never said that preterists deny the right to exist, my understanding was that your view denied it being a nation. I asked the question both biblical and political. Who declares a nation a nation? So has the U.N. done it fraudulently then.

Do you agree with what parousa said about it being fraudulent claim:

"Parousa - Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Isreal apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel"
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Sinthesis said:
nonbelieverforums said:
Ok then from a political stand point who should delcare a country a nation. Clearly most of the world consisders Israel a nation. Who else besides the Preterests and perhaps those of the muslim faith consider this claim fraud.
Why do you assume that preterists deny the State of Israel's right to exist? I support the State of Israel. This support is not based on my interpretation of the Bible, and it is not unconditional. The fact is that the 'State of Israel' established in 1948 is not the 'Nation of Israel' of various Bible prophecies.

I never said that preterists deny the right to exist, my understanding was that your view denied it being a nation. I asked the question both biblical and political. Who declares a nation a nation? So has the U.N. done it fraudulently then.

Do you agree with what parousa said about it being fraudulent claim:

"Parousa - Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Isreal apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel"
The UN has never declared the 'State of Israel' a nation. The words 'Nation' and 'State' do NOT mean the exact same thing. If the 'State of Israel' changed their name to the 'Nation of Israel', that WOULD be fraudulent, rather than the simply confusing status quo. 'True Israel' is now the Christian faith.
 
[quote="SinthesisThe UN has never declared the 'State of Israel' a nation. The words 'Nation' and 'State' do NOT mean the exact same thing. If the 'State of Israel' changed their name to the 'Nation of Israel', that WOULD be fraudulent, rather than the simply confusing status quo. 'True Israel' is now the Christian faith.[/quote]

The UN has no power or authority to declare anything pertaining to God or His people.

True Israel is the descendants of Abraham. God never changes remember? No amount of talk, resolutions, declarations or anything else will change that. Everything has proceeded according to His plan, never wavering.
 
"walter"

True Israel is the descendants of Abraham. God never changes remember? No amount of talk, resolutions, declarations or anything else will change that. Everything has proceeded according to His plan, never wavering.

Ishmael and Esaul love you.
 
There are twelve tribes of Israel; ten are scattered. The two remaining are called the Jews and are made up of the Tribe of Benjamin and Judah. No way is the nation of Israel; Israel.
 
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