it is impossible for God to lie

[PeterJens]

16> Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.
17> Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
18> God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
19> We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.
Heb 6:16-19

God is not that straight forward.
God promises blessing on condition of obedience, of following His ways, principles, statutes.
He provides a way of dealing with failure, repentance, confession and sacrifice for sins.

Now if one takes all the promises, and excludes the conditions, this sounds like a certain bet with no down
side.

There is a problem. God promised to Abraham great things, to Moses, to Israel, but they did not come
to pass in the way the people hoped, and failed in certain major areas.

Those who had faith, received the promise, but faith was always matched with their lifestyle.
To split evil behaviour from faith, was when the prophets condemned, as well as Jesus and
the apostles.

Some claim the promise of once received has no conditions attached, except all Gods
promises are related to His will and His Kingdom.

God says things and sticks to them, it is us who have little concern about who He is
and what are His intentions.

"You will be done, No earth as it is in Heaven" matt 6:10

God chooses not to lie or miss-lead, but he will harden mens hearts, send lying spirits
to pull people into traps as judgement for their sins.

23> "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
1 Kings 22:23

" But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
Exodus 4:21

18> Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:18

We must be careful to seek out Gods ways, and discern His heart and intention and walk
in His will.
7> "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8> For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9> "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
Matt 7:7-9

 

[Runner]

To say that God does not lie is to say that Truth (with a capital T) is inherent to God's Holiness. God does not "tell" the Truth, God "is" the Truth. The God who answered Job out of the whirlwind (Job 38 and following chapters) is not a God who feels obligated to "tell" the Truth to humans. His Truth is not human truth. That being said, the God who "hardens men's hearts," "sends lying spirits," etc., is not a God in whom I believe; I believe these words are men's perspective on historical events.

 

[Northman]

That being said, the God who "hardens men's hearts," "sends lying spirits," etc., is not a God in whom I believe; I believe these words are men's perspective on historical events.

So in the case of Exodus 4:21 what is going on? This looks like a direct conversation with God actually saying that.

 

[MCoop]

To say that God does not lie is to say that Truth (with a capital T) is inherent to God's Holiness. God does not "tell" the Truth, God "is" the Truth. The God who answered Job out of the whirlwind (Job 38 and following chapters) is not a God who feels obligated to "tell" the Truth to humans. His Truth is not human truth. That being said, the God who "hardens men's hearts," "sends lying spirits," etc., is not a God in whom I believe; I believe these words are men's perspective on historical events.

Then you don’t believe the God of the Bible. The only true God who is Sovereign over His creation. God uses evil to bring about His purpose and will for His glory, not ours

 

[PeterJens]

Then you don’t believe the God of the Bible. The only true God who is Sovereign over His creation. God uses evil to bring about His purpose and will for His glory, not ours

God is very different than we would like.
Balaam and his ass. God is blessing Balaam yet he is going to be killed.
Earth quakes, health problems, disasters that are within the control of the Lord, yet they fall on all,
good and bad, as well as blessing.

We are called to give up this life on earth, and the price of witnessing can be our lives here yet
He blesses us with eternal life.

Children make fun of Elijah and get attacked by a bear. Now these children were challenging
the Lord and His prophet, which is a foolish thing to do, especially when He has brought death
and judgement on the priests of Baal. But this is not "friendly".

Ahab is enticed into battle by lying prophets. Who was the bigger fools, Ahab or the prophets?
One prophet spoke the truth to Ahab, and he did not believe him.

God used satan to prove Job was sincere in his worship of the Lord. That was quite a compromise
and issue to prove. Jesus knew we need help
"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Those who are serious about knowing God, need to study His actions and ways, because in them
we will find who our Lord is and how expresses Himself. I do wonder how He does bring glory out
of free will and terrible situations, but the principle is to let evil and hatred run its course.

 

[Runner]

So in the case of Exodus 4:21 what is going on? This looks like a direct conversation with God actually saying that.

Then you don’t believe the God of the Bible. The only true God who is Sovereign over His creation. God uses evil to bring about His purpose and will for His glory, not ours

I do not believe in the God of the extreme literalist interpretation of the Bible, which is quite different from not believing in the God of the Bible. Those who choose to view the Bible as the literal, word-for-word, every-jot-and-tittle inerrant word of God are certainly entitled to their theology. Those who choose to view the OT as an accurate historical account of all the events described therein are certainly entitled to do so. It would be impossible to determine what percentage of Christians over the past 2000 years have held these two positions, but I feel confident in saying it would be a distinct minority. I am not criticizing, merely stating that I do not believe these things. Those who do believe these things are, it seems to me, required to live in a state of constant cognitive dissonance and to ignore aspects of reality that are difficult to ignore. But they are certainly entitled to do this.

I believe the Bible is the word of God in the sense of containing spiritual truth inspired by God, this and nothing more. I believe that an extreme literalist interpretation of the Bible deemphasizes the transcendent mystery of the God of Job and results in a God who is too small in many ways to be the creator of all that is, was or ever will be.

Back to the OP, I think it is very significant that when Moses asked God to identify himself so the Israelites would know who was speaking (sort of like asking God to show some ID), God offered nothing more than I AM (Exodus 3:14). Likewise, Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6). He didn't say "I show the way, always tell the truth and give eternal life." He said "I AM" these things. These statements and God's reply to Job show that we are dealing with a God who is not going to be placed in any of the tidy, anthropomorphic boxes or categories in which humans would like to place him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Gods promises never fail, it's just that we fail in obedience to those promises.

Faith can not be matched with a lifestyle. but that our lifestyle needs to reflect that of faith in whom is Christ Jesus.

One has condemned themselves, not the prophets, Jesus or the Apostles.

The promises have conditions of conjunctions such as (and, if, but) which all comes down to being obedient to Gods will and His Kingdom, but many know not of either one.

God doesn't choice to lie, He is Sovereign in all His ways and can not lie. He will harden mans heart to show His power and authority like He hardened Pharoah's heart as He displayed His power and authority through His Prophet Moses and send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, not trap them for the judgement of sin as they are already judge by their actions.

 

[for_his_glory]

God is very different than we would like.
Balaam and his ass. God is blessing Balaam yet he is going to be killed.
Earth quakes, health problems, disasters that are within the control of the Lord, yet they fall on all,
good and bad, as well as blessing.

We are called to give up this life on earth, and the price of witnessing can be our lives here yet
He blesses us with eternal life.

Children make fun of Elijah and get attacked by a bear. Now these children were challenging
the Lord and His prophet, which is a foolish thing to do, especially when He has brought death
and judgement on the priests of Baal. But this is not "friendly".

Ahab is enticed into battle by lying prophets. Who was the bigger fools, Ahab or the prophets?
One prophet spoke the truth to Ahab, and he did not believe him.

God used satan to prove Job was sincere in his worship of the Lord. That was quite a compromise
and issue to prove. Jesus knew we need help
"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Those who are serious about knowing God, need to study His actions and ways, because in them
we will find who our Lord is and how expresses Himself. I do wonder how He does bring glory out
of free will and terrible situations, but the principle is to let evil and hatred run its course.

The God I serve is a just God of mercy and grace who would that none should perish, but not all are obedient to His will. God will protect His own and send chastisements to those who persecute them. To die a death of faith is a death of honor to the Lord and the man's rewards are stored up in Heaven and given to them when Christ returns.

 

[PeterJens]

The God I serve is a just God of mercy and grace who would that none should perish, but not all are obedient to His will. God will protect His own and send chastisements to those who persecute them. To die a death of faith is a death of honor to the Lord and the man's rewards are stored up in Heaven and given to them when Christ returns.

Amen.

 

[Honey]

Yes, it is impossible for God to lie.
Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[Northman]

Those who choose to view the Bible as the literal, word-for-word, every-jot-and-tittle inerrant word of God are certainly entitled to their theology.

So someone that sees Exodus 4:21 and acknowledges it as an actual conversation that took place where God actually speaks those words gets to fall into your category of being an extreme literalist interpreter?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

The God I serve is a just God of mercy and grace who would that none should perish, but not all are obedient to His will. God will protect His own and send chastisements to those who persecute them. To die a death of faith is a death of honor to the Lord and the man's rewards are stored up in Heaven and given to them when Christ returns.

Amen to that . Indeed I believe the Word is clear on obedience being as central to salvation as Faith . Both must be present and typically they go hand in hand . However if obedience is missing from the life of a believer , it is time to do some soul-searching searching rather than searching for scripture to hide behind . When Mother Mary and Christ's brothers came looking for Him Jesus clearly defined t through these words WHO His brothers and sister and mother were. And trust me friends if I have learned anything from the Lords message it's these following words in red
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Let us examine Jesus caveat in Matthew 7 : 21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Dear friends Christ repeatedly reaches how important it is to do God's will over ours if we wish to get fullness of His grace . Snd what is the will of God? To follow His son our Lord Jesus Christ , not just BELIEVE in Him . Didn't Jesus Himself say Luke 9 :23
“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself andtake up his cross daily and follow me.

Importance of obedience in Christian faith cannot be over stated

 

[Runner]

So someone that sees Exodus 4:21 and acknowledges it as an actual conversation that took place where God actually speaks those words gets to fall into your category of being an extreme literalist interpreter?

No, into the category of "those who choose to view the OT as an accurate historical account of all the events described therein." There is no historical evidence that any event resembling the biblical exodus ever happened, and Jewish scholars acknowledge that nothing like the biblical exodus ever happened. The numbers associated with the exodus ("about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," Exodus 12:37-38) are simply preposterous. That's the historical reality. Myths commonly include fantastical numbers, which is one tip-off that we are dealing with a myth. Someone who insists that the OT account is historically accurate is denying reality for the sake of the notion - misguided, I believe - that this is "faith" and is required of a "true believer." Others accept that the myth has a spiritual meaning - God's providential care for and deliverance of his people - apart from its historical accuracy. There may be an underlying kernel of historical truth - a far smaller event in which Israelites seemed to have been miraculously delivered from bondage - that was then expanded into the biblical account.

 

[WIP]

Let's get this thread back on topic!

 

[Runner]

In regard to the topic of the thread, the point is: "Possible vs. impossible" is a human, dualistic concept. God transcends "possible" and "impossible." God is Truth. This is why Jesus said "I am the truth" and not "You can count on me to always tell you the truth" or "Nothing I say will be a lie." Just as whatever we observe of God is Holiness and Justice regardless of whether it appears that way from our human perspective, what we observe of God is by definition Truth because this is God's nature. The questions "Is it possible for God to lie?" or "Did God lie about this?" are purely human questions from a human perspective. One might say that God's Truth excludes anything that is False because this is the essence of Truth; however, this Truth might not always be apparent from the human perspective. This is the essence of faith - we trust that God is Holy, Just, Loving, Wise and True even when this is not easy to see, because we trust that this is God's nature.

 

[th1b.taylor]

16> Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.
17> Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
18> God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
19> We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.
Heb 6:16-19

God is not that straight forward.
God promises blessing on condition of obedience, of following His ways, principles, statutes.
He provides a way of dealing with failure, repentance, confession and sacrifice for sins.

Now if one takes all the promises, and excludes the conditions, this sounds like a certain bet with no down
side.

There is a problem. God promised to Abraham great things, to Moses, to Israel, but they did not come
to pass in the way the people hoped, and failed in certain major areas.

Those who had faith, received the promise, but faith was always matched with their lifestyle.
To split evil behaviour from faith, was when the prophets condemned, as well as Jesus and
the apostles.

Some claim the promise of once received has no conditions attached, except all Gods
promises are related to His will and His Kingdom.

God says things and sticks to them, it is us who have little concern about who He is
and what are His intentions.

"You will be done, No earth as it is in Heaven" matt 6:10

God chooses not to lie or miss-lead, but he will harden mens hearts, send lying spirits
to pull people into traps as judgement for their sins.

23> "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
1 Kings 22:23

" But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
Exodus 4:21

18> Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:18

We must be careful to seek out Gods ways, and discern His heart and intention and walk
in His will.
7> "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8> For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9> "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
Matt 7:7-9

That a baited question and from decades of fishing I know there is an unseen point on that hook inside the bait. When asked that question I like to flip it to the correct question by answering, ¨Yes but He will not because it is against His Nature. That, sometimes will open the conversation on the Character of the Most Holy God which you should study hard because this is one common form of the question, "Can God do anything?" Followed with, "Can He create a Rock so large He cannot lift?" don't fall into that stupid trap.

 

[Jim Parker]

That being said, the God who "hardens men's hearts," "sends lying spirits," etc., is not a God in whom I believe; I believe these words are men's perspective on historical events.

Those are the words of scripture.
Either scripture is reliable or it is not.
Lying spirit: 1Ki 22:22
Harden heart: Exo 9:12; Rom 9:18,
Those scriptures describe the God of the Bible.
If that does NOT describe the god in whom you believe then the god in whom you believe is not the God of the Bible. It is the god of your "belief."


iakov the fool

 

[PeterJens]

I think Jims point is valid, often language can be used to create unhelpful arguments.
When I look at a lie, which I have been accused of doing, I want to grasp what is the truth, and how do we grasp it.

Truth is a concept that runs our lives, upon which we live and die. Imagine you were blind to the truth of cars
going down a road and you decided to cross the road. The truth of the car, its position and your own would soon
become an obvious reality. But within this is also our perception of truth defines how we see it, whether as a
delusion or a partial understanding.

And this is the crux of our position. We always have a partial understanding of truth, so what we think of as lying
could actually be correct, and what is truth to us could be a delusion.

Jesus says He is the truth. Everything in creation references back to Him. This is a different kind of truth.
How old am I? To the year, month, day, hour, second. Which is true? All, it depends on what level of accuracy
one requires.

So God gives a command, expects obedience, and though people are lost in sin, will judge them for it.
Some hold Jesus when he was saying His people should be like this or that, it was sarcastic, He was just holding
up an impossible standard, and only hypocrites claim to be able to live this.

34> "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:34

A computer cannot choose, it follows its programming. If God could not choose, mercy, grace, forgiveness would
not be possible. God chooses to forgive, to be righteous, to hold the right things. It is more than just His nature,
it is His choice which makes it more staggering than before.

Choice is core to the gospel. Jesus starts the conversation, but we must learn to continue it.
Peter, after he denied Christ, came back. He wanted so much to be involved, but his words were bigger than
what he could deliver, but if he stayed faithful, Jesus would respond. He chose to deny Jesus, and he chose to
repent, and believe Jesus knew Peter's weakness and still opened His arms to Peter.

Jesus chose us
20> If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
Mark 13:20

16> You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 15:16

Evil by its nature is self destructive, it says you could choose the wrong things, as if that makes sense
or would lead anywhere other than where you would not want to go. That is why choice is not a bad thing, it
is only bad if we cannot see the consequences of our actions, and the truth of what we are doing.
But valid choices come from a clean heart, a pure spirit, one that is not clouded by the passions of this world.

Some create a slavery to sin, to the degree God agrees with this slavery and cannot break it here on earth.
John writes this

1> My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
1 John 2:1

3> We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1 John 2:3

God is asking us to exercise choice, to apply love, to obey, to change, to repent, to walk, to die to self and
live to Him. God is the truth, He does not lie, we can trust our lives in His hands, because He does have our
best interests to heart. And He chooses to do this. If you heard Him calling you, you are chosen.

So do not believe false teachers who say there is no choice involved, and Christ has not brought freedom.
They just desire to justify their darkness and sin that dwells in their hearts. Listen to Jesus, and walk the
walk of purification, forgiveness, sanctification and eternal life.

 

[Runner]

Those are the words of scripture.
Either scripture is reliable or it is not.
Lying spirit: 1Ki 22:22
Harden heart: Exo 9:12; Rom 9:18,
Those scriptures describe the God of the Bible.
If that does NOT describe the god in whom you believe then the god in whom you believe is not the God of the Bible. It is the god of your "belief."


iakov the fool

We should all be able to agree that God exists independently of the Bible. God exists regardless of whether the Bible is 100% inspired, 67% inspired or 12% inspired.

Neither you nor I gets to define for others what “the God of the Bible” means. If one’s theology is something like the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy – “Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God's acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God's saving grace in individual lives” – then one's understanding of “the God of the Bible” will be as you have described.

This is not my theology. My theology is that the Bible is inspired by God only in the sense of communicating spiritual truth. I don’t believe it is even vaguely inerrant “about the events of world history” as the Chicago Statement asserts. The fact that the Bible may not be scientifically or historically reliable doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

For example, the best (overwhelming) archaeological and historical evidence is that nothing resembling the Exodus occurred or could have occurred; efforts to “salvage” the historicity of the Exodus, like efforts to “salvage” a 6000-year-old earth, are not convincing to me or many others. This being the case, I believe that Exodus 9:20 tells me precisely nothing about the character of God. The Exodus myth communicates profound spiritual truth about God's providential care for his people, but the historical details are from the mind of the Jewish authors.

So you do not get to define for me, any more than I get to define for you, what "the God of the Bible" means. Your "God of the Bible" flows from a particular understanding of the Bible that I do not share. There is nothing "superior" about your view, except in the minds of those who share your understanding of the Bible. We all think our own "God of the Bible" reflects a more mature or enlightened understanding than other views. We all believe in the "God of our 'belief'" - it cannot be otherwise.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB): "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." But perhaps not so profitable for passing history exams or writing scientific dissertations.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This is not my theology. My theology is that the Bible is inspired by God only in the sense of communicating spiritual truth. I don’t believe it is even vaguely inerrant “about the events of world history” as the Chicago Statement asserts. The fact that the Bible may not be scientifically or historically reliable doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

Any human being that does not believe the original texts are inspired by God and are 100% perfect should be concerned of their Salvation. I read the scriptures as God requiring complete faith in all He does and in the book of Job, He is quite clear, He does not need anybodies help with anything, there is nothing to complicated for God.