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It is impossible for Michael to be Jesus. (Yahshua)

CherubRam

Judaic Christian
Member
It is impossible for Michael to be Jesus. (Yahshua)


Revelation 12:7-11

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels (messengers) fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels (messengers) fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

So how did Michael and his angels (messengers) overcome Satan?

Answer: By the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony.

So if Michael and his messengers overcame Satan by the blood of the LAMB, then Michael cannot be the Lamb?

Hebrews 1:5

For to which of the angels (messengers) did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?

It was to Yahshua, the messenger of the New Covenant, that God said, “you are my Son.”





Crown of life and related scriptures.


1 Corinthians 9:25
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

Philippians 4:1
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends!

1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?

2 Timothy 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Hebrews 2:7
You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

1 Peter 5:4
And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 6:2
I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Revelation 19:12

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.



Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes (Ministers), came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
21 days is the 21st century.

Daniel 10:21
but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince (Minister.)
How come Christ is not getting all the support he needs? It is because the people have been lead astray.



Daniel 12:1
“At that time Michael, the great prince (Minister) who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

In Hebrew the words “prince-s,” here in Daniel above, should have been translated as minister-s.




Related scriptures pertaining to the horses.


Zechariah 1:8

During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.



Zechariah 6:6

The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.”



Revelation 6:2

I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.



Revelation 19:11

[ The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast ] I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.



Revelation 19:14

The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.






The pope wears a triple crown, so therefore it is not him. The crown in Rev 6 is a single crown. All TRUE Christians receive a crown of life. [That’s in scriptures] The bow with no arrow means that he takes action without violence. Christ has many crowns and many arrows and rides a white horse. The "Red horse-s is Islam in the Middle East."
 
Christ speaking to Daniel about Michael.
Daniel 10:5-6
5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

Speaking of the last days.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Dan12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,…

So how do we know the person speaking to Daniel is Christ, it is because the book of Revelation tells us so?

Revelation 1:13-15
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

Revelation 2:18
To the Church in Thyatira
“To the messenger of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.



Odd.

Revelation 1:13
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

The Greek text says his "breast" were bound. (girded) But the translators gave the interpretation "chest."

Although not impossible, just extremely unlikely. Perhaps someone thought it funny to replace the word "waist" with "breast."
 
Hello CherubRam, unless I missed it, you didn't add Jude 9 to the list above (of Scriptures showing that the archangel Michael and the Lord Jesus Christ are not one and the same person), so I thought that I would do so here (I hope that's ok with you?).

Jude
9 Even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!

First off, if Michael is Jesus (as some individuals and cults say), why is it that He would not "dare" to bring a slanderous accusation against Satan (after all, He/Jesus, if that's who Michael really is, would be Satan's Judge, so He would be, in point of fact, the very One who would bring such charges against the devil).

Secondly, why would the Lord Jesus Christ, who was just referred to as "our only Sovereign and Lord" in Jude 4 say, "The Lord rebuke you"? (rather than, "I rebuke you")?

It just doesn't seem to add up, does it? So, I am in agreement with you, it is impossible for the archangel Michael (who is a creature) and the Lord Jesus Christ (who is God from everlasting) to be the same person.

--David
 
Hello CherubRam, unless I missed it, you didn't add Jude 9 to the list above (of Scriptures showing that the archangel Michael and the Lord Jesus Christ are not one and the same person), so I thought that I would do so here (I hope that's ok with you?).



First off, if Michael is Jesus (as some individuals and cults say), why is it that He would not "dare" to bring a slanderous accusation against Satan (after all, He/Jesus, if that's who Michael really is, would be Satan's Judge, so He would be, in point of fact, the very One who would bring such charges against the devil).

Secondly, why would the Lord Jesus Christ, who was just referred to as "our only Sovereign and Lord" in Jude 4 say, "The Lord rebuke you"? (rather than, "I rebuke you")?

It just doesn't seem to add up, does it? So, I am in agreement with you, it is impossible for the archangel Michael (who is a creature) and the Lord Jesus Christ (who is God from everlasting) to be the same person.

--David

"The Lord" is Yahwah.
Zechariah 3:2
The Lord (Yahwah) said to Satan, “The Lord (Yahwah) rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, (Yahwah) who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?” (said Satan.)
3 Now Joshua (he) was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel (messenger.) 4 The angel (messenger)said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”
Then he said to Joshua, (him) “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”

The minister of Yahshua was a sinner.

Daniel 12
The End Times​

12:1. “At that time Michael, the great minister who protects your people, will arise.
 
Hello CherubRam, unless I missed it, you didn't add Jude 9 to the list above (of Scriptures showing that the archangel Michael and the Lord Jesus Christ are not one and the same person), so I thought that I would do so here (I hope that's ok with you?).



First off, if Michael is Jesus (as some individuals and cults say), why is it that He would not "dare" to bring a slanderous accusation against Satan (after all, He/Jesus, if that's who Michael really is, would be Satan's Judge, so He would be, in point of fact, the very One who would bring such charges against the devil).

Secondly, why would the Lord Jesus Christ, who was just referred to as "our only Sovereign and Lord" in Jude 4 say, "The Lord rebuke you"? (rather than, "I rebuke you")?

It just doesn't seem to add up, does it? So, I am in agreement with you, it is impossible for the archangel Michael (who is a creature) and the Lord Jesus Christ (who is God from everlasting) to be the same person.

--David
Jude 1:9 is a Gnostic insertion.
 
On Earth the Cherubim have four wings. In Heaven they have six wings.
The number of wings is parabolic of status.
Sleep not


Enoch
[Chapter 40]




1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. 4,5 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits forever and ever. And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: 'Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?' And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.


(Phanuel / Peniel) is Yahshua


Human beings need sleep. The people in heaven do not require sleep.
 
On what basis and authority to you claim Jude 1:9 is a Gnostic insertion?
From: (Nigel B. Mitchell)

Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Subject: Jude 9

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:02:02 GMT



As promised, some verifiable evidence about the background of Jude

verse 9.



In a large volume titled "The Old testament Psudepigrapha" vol. 1

(DLT, 1983) in an article introducing the text of "The Testament of

Moses (1st Century), J. Priest (pp 919ff) writes that the Testament of

Moses is a virtual rewrite of Deuteronomy 31-34. It is generally held

to have influenced the following NT passages:

Jude 9, 12-13, 2 Peter 2:13, Acts 7:36-43, Matthew 24:19-21.

"Jude 9 refers to a story of the disputes between Michael and Satan

over the body of Jesus, an account that does not appear in our text.

That the episode was contained in the lost ending of the Testament of

Moses, or in a cognate work, possibly called the Assumption of Moses,

is possible, but our present information does not warrand any positive

conclusion.

... The possibility exists that some NT authors were familiar with the

testament of Moses, but it would be better to say that both the

Testament of Moses and certain NT texts show familiarity with common

traditional material."



In the Word Biblical Commentary on Jude, 2 Peter, (Word Books, 1983),

R.J. Bauckham includes an excursus on pp. 65-76 on the sources of Jude

9. This is the most comprehensive text I could find - eleven pages on

tis one verse! It is worth looking up, if you are interested and have

access to a theological library. Bauckham details the relation of Jude

9 to OT and other sources, and writes

"There is widespread agreement that Jude's source in verse 9 was the

lost ending of a work sometimes known as the Assumption of Moses, but

more appropriately known as the Testament of Moses"

"Although the ending of the Testament of Moses is no longer extant, a

number of Christian sources seem to have preserved the substance of

the story it contained"

Sources are listed, including Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Dydimus

the Blind (!), Gelasius, ...

The article concludes that the "Assumption of Moses" is a second-

century edited version of the Testimony of Moses", and that Jude was

aware of, and alluded to, at least the tradition, if not the precise

wording of the Testimony.



Peake's commentary on the Bible, sv "Jude".

"Jude drew on the OT (Septuagint version), Enoch, and the Assumption

of Moses..."



The Epistles of James, .Peter and Jude - Anchor Bible commentary

(Doubleday 1980).

Bo Reicke writes "According to well known authorities of the early

Church like Clement, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's

contention with the Devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental

book entitled "The Assumption of Moses". (p. 202)



Introducton to the New testament (SCM Press, 1983)

R.F. Collins writes "... the small letter of Jude cites both the

Apocalypse of Moses (Jude 8-9) and 1 Enoch (Jude 14-15) in a

reverential manner..." (page 10)



Jude and the relatives of Jesus in the early Church (T&T Clark 1990)

R Bauckham (I think the same person who wrote the Word commentary)

writes

"According to the Alexandrian Fathers... the story of the dispute over

the body of Moses, to which Jude 9 refers, was contained in an

apocryphal work called the Assumption of Moses.

... some 19th century scholars took the account of Jude to be a

factual one, ...and denied any dependence on the Assumption of Moses,

which [they] argued was a second century Christian work based on Jude"

(p 141)

Bauckham concludes that it is most likely that Jude used the lost

ending of the Testament of Moses, and that "The story in this version

can be reconstituted [from extant sources] with some confidence"

(p.144).


The above shows that the matter of the background of Jude 9 is by no

means an easy or simple matter. I could not find any texts which dealt

with Jude 9 and did not mention the Testament/Assumption/Apocalypse of

Moses, and only Bauckham's incidental reference suggested that there

was any likelihood that Jude wrote without getting his information

from the written or oral Jewish tradition.



What I have collected above is the kind of evidence with which

scholars work. It still leaves many questions and possibilities open,

but points towards a fairly strong consensus that Jude 9 is an

allusion to a Jewish pseudepigraphal work which was well known to both

Jude and his readers.



Cheers



N+



Nigel B. Mitchell
© John Mark Ministries. Articles may be reproduced in any medium, without applying for permission
(provided they are unedited, and retain the original author/copyright information - and perhaps a reference to this website :)!






From Me
The dispute mentioned between the Archangel Michael and the Devil does not suit itself to the doctrinal views of the Sadducees since they denied the existence of angels. (Acts 23:8 states this clearly).



Quote from Holman Bible Dictionary: “Jude 1:9 refers to a dispute between the devil and Michael over Moses' body. According to Origin (A.D. 185? to 254?), this account formed part of the extra-biblical work, The Assumption of Moses The incident is not mentioned in the surviving fragments of this work.”





In regards to verse nine in the Book of Jude:
Chrysostom and Jerome mention Jude's quoting from a non-canonical sources as the reason it being disputed by some as canonical.
 
From: (Nigel B. Mitchell)

Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Subject: Jude 9

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:02:02 GMT



As promised, some verifiable evidence about the background of Jude

verse 9.



In a large volume titled "The Old testament Psudepigrapha" vol. 1

(DLT, 1983) in an article introducing the text of "The Testament of

Moses (1st Century), J. Priest (pp 919ff) writes that the Testament of

Moses is a virtual rewrite of Deuteronomy 31-34. It is generally held

to have influenced the following NT passages:

Jude 9, 12-13, 2 Peter 2:13, Acts 7:36-43, Matthew 24:19-21.

"Jude 9 refers to a story of the disputes between Michael and Satan

over the body of Jesus, an account that does not appear in our text.

That the episode was contained in the lost ending of the Testament of

Moses, or in a cognate work, possibly called the Assumption of Moses,

is possible, but our present information does not warrand any positive

conclusion.

... The possibility exists that some NT authors were familiar with the

testament of Moses, but it would be better to say that both the

Testament of Moses and certain NT texts show familiarity with common

traditional material."



In the Word Biblical Commentary on Jude, 2 Peter, (Word Books, 1983),

R.J. Bauckham includes an excursus on pp. 65-76 on the sources of Jude

9. This is the most comprehensive text I could find - eleven pages on

tis one verse! It is worth looking up, if you are interested and have

access to a theological library. Bauckham details the relation of Jude

9 to OT and other sources, and writes

"There is widespread agreement that Jude's source in verse 9 was the

lost ending of a work sometimes known as the Assumption of Moses, but

more appropriately known as the Testament of Moses"

"Although the ending of the Testament of Moses is no longer extant, a

number of Christian sources seem to have preserved the substance of

the story it contained"

Sources are listed, including Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Dydimus

the Blind (!), Gelasius, ...

The article concludes that the "Assumption of Moses" is a second-

century edited version of the Testimony of Moses", and that Jude was

aware of, and alluded to, at least the tradition, if not the precise

wording of the Testimony.



Peake's commentary on the Bible, sv "Jude".

"Jude drew on the OT (Septuagint version), Enoch, and the Assumption

of Moses..."



The Epistles of James, .Peter and Jude - Anchor Bible commentary

(Doubleday 1980).

Bo Reicke writes "According to well known authorities of the early

Church like Clement, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's

contention with the Devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental

book entitled "The Assumption of Moses". (p. 202)



Introducton to the New testament (SCM Press, 1983)

R.F. Collins writes "... the small letter of Jude cites both the

Apocalypse of Moses (Jude 8-9) and 1 Enoch (Jude 14-15) in a

reverential manner..." (page 10)



Jude and the relatives of Jesus in the early Church (T&T Clark 1990)

R Bauckham (I think the same person who wrote the Word commentary)

writes

"According to the Alexandrian Fathers... the story of the dispute over

the body of Moses, to which Jude 9 refers, was contained in an

apocryphal work called the Assumption of Moses.

... some 19th century scholars took the account of Jude to be a

factual one, ...and denied any dependence on the Assumption of Moses,

which [they] argued was a second century Christian work based on Jude"

(p 141)

Bauckham concludes that it is most likely that Jude used the lost

ending of the Testament of Moses, and that "The story in this version

can be reconstituted [from extant sources] with some confidence"

(p.144).


The above shows that the matter of the background of Jude 9 is by no

means an easy or simple matter. I could not find any texts which dealt

with Jude 9 and did not mention the Testament/Assumption/Apocalypse of

Moses, and only Bauckham's incidental reference suggested that there

was any likelihood that Jude wrote without getting his information

from the written or oral Jewish tradition.



What I have collected above is the kind of evidence with which

scholars work. It still leaves many questions and possibilities open,

but points towards a fairly strong consensus that Jude 9 is an

allusion to a Jewish pseudepigraphal work which was well known to both

Jude and his readers.



Cheers



N+



Nigel B. Mitchell
© John Mark Ministries. Articles may be reproduced in any medium, without applying for permission
(provided they are unedited, and retain the original author/copyright information - and perhaps a reference to this website :)!






From Me
The dispute mentioned between the Archangel Michael and the Devil does not suit itself to the doctrinal views of the Sadducees since they denied the existence of angels. (Acts 23:8 states this clearly).



Quote from Holman Bible Dictionary: “Jude 1:9 refers to a dispute between the devil and Michael over Moses' body. According to Origin (A.D. 185? to 254?), this account formed part of the extra-biblical work, The Assumption of Moses The incident is not mentioned in the surviving fragments of this work.”





In regards to verse nine in the Book of Jude:
Chrysostom and Jerome mention Jude's quoting from a non-canonical sources as the reason it being disputed by some as canonical.

I own the works Michel is referencing, but he is only making the assertion that Enoch's source is apocryphal, not Gnostic. Where is your connection to Gnosticism?
 
Michael makes war in heaven against the dragon. ( the devil.)

In heaven came salvation, strength, the Kingdom of our God, ( salvation is not for Michael who cast the devil out, salvation is for those on earth, who believe in the victory in heaven by Michael.)

Apart from not loving their lives to the death revealing that is not speaking of Michael dying, and clearly is talking about the believers in Jesus Christ who He preached to us to hate our life, not love our life. John 12:25.) Revelation 19 confirms who was making war, who is called Faithful and True, in righteousness judging and making war.


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Re3velation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
 
I wouldn't mind a little battle actually, but so far all is kinda quiet on the Western Front, so we're waiting to see if things pick up. :)
IMHO as a redneck.

Revelation 12 is the birth of Jesus.

Jesus was taken to Egypt for protection.

If any of this is chronically written, it might tell when Satan was removed from heaven. That would also seperate Jesus from being Michael,

This would place Satan on earth to tempt Jesus.

You know the redneck mind. Comments.
Keep the watchman in the tower (in case of attack).

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
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