It isn't Islamophobia when they really are trying to kill you!

[By Grace]

This was spoken by the leader of an extremist group. After Muslim leaders learned of what he said he was forced to step down.

Thanks for the update on that.
CAIR is supposed to be the "moderate Muslims meeting place" and as such is supposed to be a quasi-official spokes-organization for American Muslims.

If you could supply the details of his firing, and his censure, plus where he is now, that MAY mitigate some of the LEGITIMATE fear that many of us have...

 

[Mountain Man]

I think a lot of this conflict comes down to ignorance...both on the Christian side and the Islamic side.

We christians often claim that Islamic are out to kill every heretic. But that's not true...it's only the extremists/terrorists offshoot that believes that. Modern day followers don't practice that anymore. The verses often quoted by Christians to "prove it" are taken out of historical context

It's the same as Christianity when Athiests try to use old testatement quotes about killing entire towns if some of the people are of another belief. Obviously we don't do that anymore, but if you take it out of historical context it makes us all sound like murderers.

It comes down to what is on the daily news and in the headlines,the old testament was a long time ago and is no comparison,now Christians are demonized for far worse atrocities like supporting the family,marriage between men and women and keeping unborn children alive....Muslims on the other hand are blowing stuff up and cutting off people's heads...in case you were not aware.

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus made it perdectly clear didn't He when He said "Ye Shall Know Them By Their Fruits" whether it be radical rascal or causual they are all growing on the same tree. By their own volition they must follow what's outlined in the quaran or be an outcast.. Plain and simple they are of the world and the world loves its own.

tob

 

[Potluck]

CAIR is supposed to be the "moderate Muslims meeting place" and as such is supposed to be a quasi-official spokes-organization for American Muslims.

If you could supply the details of his firing, and his censure, plus where he is now, that MAY mitigate some of the LEGITIMATE fear that many of us have...

The Case Against Omar Ahmad
http://www.investigativeproject.org/2790/the-case-against-omar-ahmad

CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad served as a senior executive in the Palestine Committee, an umbrella organization of U.S.-based Hamas support groups, FBI recordings and internal documents show. Ahmad worked closely with Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF) officials and served as president of the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP) for two years. Both HLF, convicted in 2008 of funneling millions of dollars to Hamas, and IAP, a U.S. Hamas propaganda arm, were identified in court documents as the Palestine Committee's primary components.

Prosecutors say the groups worked to support Hamas both politically and financially. Exhibits introduced during the 2008 HLF trial supported that conclusion. Yet, Ahmad continued to work with HLF even after Hamas' 1995 designation.

Among the findings in the IPT report showing Ahmad's Palestine Committee leadership:

Almost five years after CAIR's formation, in a 1999 phone call with HLF executive Shukri Abu Baker, Ahmad advocated on behalf of an HLF official named Mohammed El-Mezain. Though Ahmad was not an HLF official, he negotiated the amount HLF would pay El-Mezain for fundraising trips he had made over several years. Ahmad was serving as CAIR's national chairman at this time.

Also in 1999, Ahmad was recorded speaking with HLF official Haitham Maghawri regarding tens of thousands of dollars Shukri Abu Baker had promised Ahmad for a project. Maghawri, one of the HLF defendants, never stood trial because he fled the country before the government could file the 2004 indictment.

In February 1994, Ahmad called for a teleconference during which he attempted to resolve a fundraising dispute between Hamas activist Abdelhaleem Al Ashqar and the Holy Land Foundation. Hamas operatives Jamil Hamami and Mohamed Siam later discussed Ahmad's suggestions during a meeting with Ashqar in Mississippi. The dispute was only fully resolved once Hamas official Mousa Abu Marzook intervened on HLF's behalf.

Ahmad planned, convened and moderated an October 1993 meeting of the Palestine Committee in Philadelphia where members discussed ways to "derail" a U.S.-led peace agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians. The group knew that their Hamas support was problematic. They agreed to reference the group as sister "Samah" [Hamas spelled backward] and warned each other that the U.S. had proposed legislation that would designate Hamas as a terror organization.

Under Ahmad's watch, CAIR received $10,000 from HLF and solicited donations on HLF's behalf several times after Hamas' designation.

These examples illustrate Ahmad's authority over the committee and leverage in making HLF decisions. Internal Palestine Committee documents also affirm that Ahmad served as a committee executive.

A diagram of Palestine Committee leadership put together by U.S. Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Akram in 1991 shows Ahmad (a.k.a. Omar Yehya) listed in the No. 2 slot in a list of members of the committee's executives. Ahmad's California phone number also appeared in a Palestine Committee phonebook.

During the 2008 trial, FBI Agent Lara Burns pointed to phone calls made between Ahmad and HLF officials, discussed above, as evidence that he was a "leader within the Palestine Committee."

Other CAIR officials also popped up in the HLF trial exhibits, such as CAIR's current Executive Director Nihad Awad and former CAIR Vice President Nabil Sadoun. Sadoun was ordered deported last year. An immigration judge referenced Sadoun's relationship with Hamas and HLF during a deportation hearing.

Ghassan Elashi, listed as an official on CAIR-Texas' 1998 incorporation documents, was convicted in the HLF case and sentenced to 65 years in prison. According to a superseding indictment in the case, Elashi's illicit activity began in October 1997, before he signed off on the CAIR documents, and continued until charges were brought by the U.S. in 2004.

Ahmad and the CAIR organization itself were named as an unindicted co-conspirators (UCC) in the HLF prosecution.

One of CAIR's main talking points regarding the UCC list has been that being named a UCC "is not a pronouncement of any guilt or even guilt by association." Perhaps. But those most familiar with the evidence have reached different conclusions. The FBI decided it no longer considered CAIR to be an "appropriate liaison partner," and would not "until we can resolve whether there continues to be a connection between CAIR or its executives and HAMAS."

And the presiding judge, after seeing all the evidence, ruled that there was "ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR …with HLF, the Islamic Association for Palestine ("IAP"), and with Hamas."

Soon after the FBI's announcement on contact with CAIR, Ahmad announced that he was retiring as CAIR's chairman emeritus. That doesn't seem to have mended CAIR's relations with the FBI. Last month, FBI Director Robert Mueller confirmed the FBI's policy towards CAIR still stands, noting that the problem is the group's "national leadership."

 

[Kaliani]

Then there is reality,people can imagine anything they want but when bombs go off, planes crash,favortism is shown it passes from concern to reality

The reality is this.

The National Counterterrorism Center's 2011 report found that: 'Muslims suffered between 82 and 97 percent of terrorism-related fatalities over the past five years.'

If this is what the race card's done for Muslims, let them keep it. White, Christian Westerners STILL fare better against Islam.

 

[Milk-Drops]

It comes down to what is on the daily news and in the headlines,

That is actually a very ignorant way to gather information because ALL news programs are based around ratings. You are only taking in what the news media wants you to see. A good example is what is going on with Paula Dean. She said something 30 years ago that was maybe rascist, but that isn't even fully confirmed. Yet the news media is eating it up and making it a massive story. Now think about how this very system can also convince pampered, spoiled, westerners about how evil and violent a religion they are most likely not going to interact with on large level are. Think about that for a second.

the old testament was a long time ago and is no comparison,

Yet you want to use the Quran. Double standard much?

now Christians are demonized for far worse atrocities like supporting the family,marriage between men and women and keeping unborn children alive....

Nice cherry picking, you are forgetting about how in Kenya there is a Christian backed movement to put Homosexuals to death and how recently in Russia Homosexuals were outright stripped of their rights. The entire world is not like the US.

Muslims on the other hand are blowing stuff up and cutting off people's heads...in case you were not aware.

At what rate? What frequency? Would it also happen to be in places with horrible education, poverty, and war torn third world countries with huge resource problems?

 

[jasoncran]

muslim's do kill each other. the shia kill the sunnis and vice versa.

 

[Mountain Man]

That is actually a very ignorant way to gather information because ALL news programs are based around ratings. You are only taking in what the news media wants you to see. A good example is what is going on with Paula Dean. She said something 30 years ago that was maybe rascist, but that isn't even fully confirmed. Yet the news media is eating it up and making it a massive story. Now think about how this very system can also convince pampered, spoiled, westerners about how evil and violent a religion they are most likely not going to interact with on large level are. Think about that for a second.

That is an ignorant statement,i suppose you think the stories of Muslim atrocities are made up for ratings as well

Yet you want to use the Quran. Double standard much?

More ignorance,to compare and justify something that happened thousands of years to what is happeneing today is the kind of ignorance that makes what is happening now possible.

Nice cherry picking, you are forgetting about how in Kenya there is a Christian backed movement to put Homosexuals to death and how recently in Russia Homosexuals were outright stripped of their rights. The entire world is not like the US.

Where do you get this from ? the media that makes up things to get ratings ? Christians in America are demonized for supporting traditional values by people like you all the time.

At what rate? What frequency? Would it also happen to be in places with horrible education, poverty, and war torn third world countries with huge resource problems?

if people just had more stuff then everything would be ok,some of these Muslim countries are very wealthy yet we never hear anyone say they should take care of their own people....it's always America's fault...at what rate ? I suppose a rate you can live with as long as it doesn't happen to you I guess.

 

[Mountain Man]

Then there is reality,people can imagine anything they want but when bombs go off, planes crash,favortism is shown it passes from concern to reality

The reality is this.

The National Counterterrorism Center's 2011 report found that: 'Muslims suffered between 82 and 97 percent of terrorism-related fatalities over the past five years.'

If this is what the race card's done for Muslims, let them keep it. White, Christian Westerners STILL fare better against Islam.

So we are supposed to accept violence from them because they are killing their own as well as others ?

 

[Milk-Drops]

i suppose you think the stories of Muslim atrocities are made up for ratings as well

I understand that events happen. I just understand that I also have to look into actual stats and frequency events to understand the reality of the situation. If that is ignorant, then I really think we have different definition on ignorance.

to compare and justify something that happened thousands of years to what is happeneing today is the kind of ignorance that makes what is happening now possible.

I gave you 2 current examples. That isn't thousands of years ago dude.

Where do you get this from ?

I watch multiple news sources, some from outside the US and fact check them. You are calling research and fact checking ignorance.

the media that makes up things to get ratings ?

You said that, not me.

Christians in America are demonized for supporting traditional values by people like you all the time.

People like me? I haven't said anything about Christianity, also the reality is that if you hold a posotion, someone is going to disagree with it. If its a position that deeply impacts people's lives, they are going to get defensive.

if people just had more stuff then everything would be ok

I never said this. I asked you for stats and instead you are calling me ignorant with no basis and trying to shove words in my mouth. If you want to call someone ignorant, presents some sourced facts. :D

 

[By Grace]

I just understand that I also have to look into actual stats and frequency events to understand the reality of the situation.

Agreed.

What is really needed is a chi square on the number of worldwide events of terror in any given year (or month, ot week), and the number of Muslims who are the perpetrators. You also need to include the fact that there are many different Muslims from Chechnya, and in places in Africa and Caucasian-looking Muslims in Bosnia. Therefore you can not use the nationalities as a determiner of religion.

If that is ignorant, then I really think we have different definition on ignorance.

To set matters straight, it is NOT simple ignorance, but rather an ignorance of the science of statistics. There is a big difference in the two.

Until I took stats on a grad level, I was unaware of exactly what they could, as well as their limitations. Perhaps you could do a chi square for acts of terrorism by religion one day by searching all the data bases, you can Nexis-Lexis is great if you subscribe to it, or perhaps you could call a newsie and ask if someone in the newspaper could email you a printout on terrorism for a certain day. Of course there will be some skewing because Nexis-Lexis is devoted to counting and reporting stories on a particular subject. You may not be able to get all the acts of terrorism on a particular day, but you will get an accurate summary of the number of reported acts of terrorism, and then you can extrapolate how many happened.

Name calling is a no no here. It is much better to use the moderators to defuse a situation. There have been many closings of threads due to bickering. Just a word to the wise.

BTW there is only one cure for ignorance, and that is facts. If you present them well in a spirit of education, you win a friend, and win the argument. Of course there are those who will not listen to reason, nor suffer a challenge to their prejudices. (NOT finger pointing here) SO WHAT? You did your best before God, and you are not responsible for the results in others

 

[Mountain Man]

To set matters straight, it is NOT simple ignorance, but rather an ignorance of the science of statistics. There is a big difference in the two.

As compared to just not giving a rip as long as it doesn't happen to you

 

[Mountain Man]

I understand that events happen. I just understand that I also have to look into actual stats and frequency events to understand the reality of the situation. If that is ignorant, then I really think we have different definition on ignorance.

Ok,you as is typical of your kind think that your perceptions are superior

I gave you 2 current examples. That isn't thousands of years ago dude.

Well....Dude,your examples are a joke....Christians in Kenya,yeah Christians are big there,how many homosexuals have the killed because as you have stated its all about stats and frequency LOL Christians in Russia ? please give me a break if that is the best you can do.

I watch multiple news sources, some from outside the US and fact check them. You are calling research and fact checking ignorance.

And nobody but you does this...

You said that, not me.

People like me? I haven't said anything about Christianity, also the reality is that if you hold a posotion, someone is going to disagree with it. If its a position that deeply impacts people's lives, they are going to get defensive.

They get more than defensive,ever heard of PC ?

if people just had more stuff then everything would be ok



I never said this. I asked you for stats and instead you are calling me ignorant with no basis and trying to shove words in my mouth. Here is a hint, presents some sourced facts.

You said that Muslim violence occurs in countries with poor education and poverty,since you did not mention any other possible reasons it is reasonable to conclude that this is the reason/excuse you offer for Muslim violence.


Exhausting our vocabulary again...the Muslim world has much wealth which is rarely if ever used to make the lives of ordinary Muslims better,it is however frequently used to pay people to strap bombs to their kids to kill the infidels.

 

[tessiewebb]

To set matters straight, it is NOT simple ignorance, but rather an ignorance of the science of statistics. There is a big difference in the two.

As compared to just not giving a rip as long as it doesn't happen to you

Gotta compliment you on this one, MM. Such a short statement and such a truth in it! Grabbed my attention enough to ask if I can quote it here and on another forum, okay with you?

 

[tessiewebb]

Jesus made it perdectly clear didn't He when He said "Ye Shall Know Them By Their Fruits" whether it be radical rascal or causual they are all growing on the same tree. By their own volition they must follow what's outlined in the quaran or be an outcast.. Plain and simple they are of the world and the world loves its own.

tob

Well worth bumping to the top, tob. Thanks for the post.

 

[tessiewebb]

This was spoken by the leader of an extremist group. After Muslim leaders learned of what he said he was forced to step down.

Might be better said that when what he said was made KNOWN to the world, he was forced to step down. What he said is Islamic to the core, it is only the publication of the sentiment that caused his end of tenure, imho. Imams and other Islamists have been saying it and meaning it with an intensity that is clearly the uniting force behind Islamists everywhere.

 

[tessiewebb]

If Muslim groups, black groups, women's groups, gay groups, Hispanic groups and every other minority group would stop stirring pot maybe we'd have a better chance of putting these things in the past. But no, some group somewhere is always screaming discrimination, prejudice, bigotry or other words to imply hate keeping the victim mentality going.
They just won't let it die.
We're supposed to be moving forward toward equality but people keep segregating themselves into minority activist groups.

What is sad is that "discrimination, prejudice, bigotry" do exist. And sometimes those discriminated against join together. The real tragedy is what underlies your post, that real cases of "discrimination, prejudice, bigotry" are snowed under and diminished in effectiveness by the spurious use of the outcry for unreal cases. Like Muslims playing the "race" game when, as ByGrace has pionted out, Muslims come in all races and there most assuredly is NO race called Muslim. Islamists are fantastically effective in using American issues against us. It boggles the mind!

 

[tessiewebb]

Same thing needs to happen within the Muslim communities. Instead of yelling racist or bigot claiming victimization from Christians standing against radical Islam they need to stand up and fight it as avidly as non-Muslims.

As far as I'm concerned it's they who should be leading the struggle against radical Islam, not Christians who when they do are ridiculed as bigots....

All well and good, potluck, but to do so would be equivalent to Christians refusing to adhere to Biblical standards. (Unfortunately, this is all too common!) They'd basically have to not be Muslim anymore. Plus face reprisals. Doesn't seem it would be a likely scenario for many in Islam.

 

[Mountain Man]

To set matters straight, it is NOT simple ignorance, but rather an ignorance of the science of statistics. There is a big difference in the two.

As compared to just not giving a rip as long as it doesn't happen to you

Gotta compliment you on this one, MM. Such a short statement and such a truth in it! Grabbed my attention enough to ask if I can quote it here and on another forum, okay with you?

Sure,no problem.

 

[Kaliani]

So we are supposed to accept violence from them

Right now, radical Islam has decimated a staggering number of its own, despite its avowed hatred for us.

That's like the KKK going around killing more whites than non-whites. It's bizarre, amusing, even, from a certain point of view.

Islam clearly isn't in THEIR OWN best interests. This is the realization that will change their minds. This is what we need to tell them, not join in the squabble for the race card.