"It's Not Fair" so I will not believe it.

[Dave...]

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?â€Â
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?â€Â

As Luther once said about this passage..."Now, His judgments would not be past finding out if we could always perceive them as just."

When you hear arguments used against very clear scripture that have been reduced to, and based soley on "it isn't fair", and the clear meaning is rejected on that basis, it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

 

[Drew]

It is true that one needs to be careful about using the "it's not fair" argument. I would add that just because someone uses this argument against doctrine X, this does not mean that are not other more scripturally defensible arguments against X.

 

[Dave...]

I wonder, sometimes, if based soley on setting falable standards and, in effect, judging God in something that He tells us we cannot fully understand, that this is not blasphemy.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

When you hear arguments used against very clear scripture that have been reduced to, and based solely on "it isn't fair", and the clear meaning is rejected on that basis, it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

If we were to understand what 'fair' is, I dare say that we would all be grateful that God is not fair.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I, for one, don't want what is owed me.

 

[mutzrein]

Can someone please help my understanding. What is it that is seen to be unfair?

 

[unred typo]

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?â€Â
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?â€Â

As Luther once said about this passage..."Now, His judgments would not be past finding out if we could always perceive them as just."

When you hear arguments used against very clear scripture that have been reduced to, and based soley on "it isn't fair", and the clear meaning is rejected on that basis, it kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

God’s ways are just and his judgments are fair. Calvinism is not just nor fair in anyone’s book, certainly not God’s book, the Bible. Even Calvinists know their doctrines are biased and unpalatable. Their only hope is to blur what they are actually saying and/or pronounce the ungodly mess as being beyond man’s comprehension. It is incomprehensible, I will give them that.
:roll:

 

[Dave...]

I don't recall a post that actually used the "it isn't fair" argument, that ever actually used scripture to back it up. How could they? "It isn't fair" is what is used in the absence of a reasonable scriptural argument.

 

[Dave...]

Can someone please help my understanding. What is it that is seen to be unfair?

When you narrow it down, it usually ends up at God's sovereignty.

 

[mutzrein]

When you narrow it down, it usually ends up at God's sovereignty.

Couldn't agree more Dave. I can never question God's sovereignty. But what supposed acts of a sovereign God are unfair to those who see it as such?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Can someone please help my understanding. What is it that is seen to be unfair?

Psa 73:12 Behold, these [are] the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase [in] riches.
Psa 73:13 Verily I have cleansed my heart [in] vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
Psa 73:14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
Psa 73:15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend [against] the generation of thy children.
Psa 73:16 When I thought to know this, it [was] too painful for me;
Psa 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; [then] understood I their end.

Psalm 73 is a great piece of Scripture to chew on for someone who believes that God has treated them unfairly. This is just a bit of it that gives a summary. I recommend reading the entire chapter.

It can sometimes be easy for a Christian to become envious or jealous when they see the 'prosperity' of the wicked.

I heard a commentary on this on the radio this morning. The speaker was saying that sometimes we can accept the prosperity of the wicked easier than we can accept the prosperity of a brother in Christ. :wink: We wonder why God gave them the blessing and not us.

 

[Rick W]

I've heard grace as being claimed as unfair quite a few times.
Especially when someone has tried and/or struggled for a lifetime and someone tells them that someone about to die could be saved, such as the thief on the cross next to Christ.
One fellow said something like, "Well, that's ok but he'll take a lower position in heaven." (than me) he didn't have to add.
Grace can definately be offensive to some. The "unfairness" of grace is somewhat sided-stepped by the LDS Church by tacking on a few more words to the following verse to read...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; after all we can do.

In this manner grace becomes humanly fair. So what is modified to do this?

When you narrow it down, it usually ends up at God's sovereignty.

Bingo

 

[Solo]

Exactly. Who are we to question whatever God wants to do. Thank God His will is not based on our finite, unrighteous, needy, spiritually challenged abilities to comprehend fairness.

I trust that God and only God knows what fairness really is. He is that He is and that is all that we need to know concerning fairness, unless one would like to build a golden calf to worship in this physical realm instead.

 

[unred typo]

Solo, Lovely… I’m sorry to be the one to break the news to you but God asked me to inform you this morning that you are not one of the chosen few. In fact all your family has not been chosen either. All of you are going to burn forever in darkest eternal tormenting flames gnawing your deceitful tongues. Don’t bother trying to change this sovereign verdict. It IS written in stone, as it was from eternity past and there is nothing, absolutely nothing you can do about it. Bow your head and say thank you for letting you know so you can at least enjoy the few years of relative bliss you’ll have until you die. You don’t feel thankful? Fair enough, but I warn you, it‘s only going to add to your pain. There are degrees of hell, you know. :o

I suppose you are wondering why you feel like you have been chosen and you’re a child of God. God gave you a lying spirit to cause you to feel humbly superior in your chosen-ness. Your own heart was an accomplice in this, being deceitfully wicked. It was his brilliant plan to keep you in line, and afford you a little peace but it’s time to learn the truth, and accept the inevitable. Please don’t take this personal. You were not chosen but it wasn’t anything you did, so it was fair and just and you are too evil to know it. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you might be, well… God doesn't want me to talk about it anymore. He is a God of mercy, after all.
:wink:

 

[Solo]

God's will be done.

 

[unred typo]

God's will be done.

That’s what you say now in the comfort of your Lazy-Boy. We’ll check back when the flames have been running up and down your spine for a few hundred years without any hope of relief.

 

[Dave...]

Psa 73:12 Behold, these [are] the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase [in] riches.
Psa 73:13 Verily I have cleansed my heart [in] vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
Psa 73:14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
Psa 73:15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend [against] the generation of thy children.
Psa 73:16 When I thought to know this, it [was] too painful for me;
Psa 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; [then] understood I their end.

Very good. :D

 

[Bick]

"Its not fair"--so I will not believe

First of all, who are we, but, part of God's creation, likened as to pieces of pottery and He the Potter.

In Col. 1:16, 17 we read, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
God created through Christ.
Notice, this creation includes every thing in the universe: energy, matter, space, time; earthly beings and spirit beings, whether good or bad.

Next, we know that all humanity will be judged for their deeds. And will not Christ Jesus judge 'fairly'? Of course he will.

First, let's read Romans 2, where Paul declares in vs. 2, "...we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." SO, God will judge in truth.

Next, in vs. 6, "Who will render (judge) to every man according to his deeds." THAT'S FAIR: each one judged only according to his deeds.

Also, God will take into account those who have never been under the Mosaic Law, but are a law unto themselves through their conscience: vs.14, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves. vs. 15, Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."

Finally, vs. 11ff reads "For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the Law.
This, of course, includes the Jew and any others who think they can achieve the righteousness of God by keeping the law.

Bick

 

[Packrat]

In my opinion, God's decisions in this matter have little to do with fairness. It's like saying that eating this apple isn't as fair as eating this orange. It wasn't fair or unfair that we were created by God; it wasn't fair or unfair that we die or might be damned to eternal destruction. It's simply what happened. God can do whatever he wants with his creation. Eternal life is a gift - not a right. It is given to some, perhaps to all, but fewer accept it.

Following the same line of thought, I could say that it's not fair that we sin against God and then let his Son take the fall so that we can live forever, but that's the way that it is (for some people anyway). So anything we receive from God is, in all fairness, a gift. Thank God that you're not floating out in space without a suit, and thank God that some of us will live forever even if most of us die in the end.

Just my thoughts.

 

[unred typo]

In my opinion, God's decisions in this matter have little to do with fairness. It's like saying that eating this apple isn't as fair as eating this orange. It wasn't fair or unfair that we were created by God; it wasn't fair or unfair that we die or might be damned to eternal destruction. It's simply what happened. God can do whatever he wants with his creation. Eternal life is a gift - not a right. It is given to some, perhaps to all, but fewer accept it.

Following the same line of thought, I could say that it's not fair that we sin against God and then let his Son take the fall so that we can live forever, but that's the way that it is (for some people anyway). So anything we receive from God is, in all fairness, a gift. Thank God that you're not floating out in space without a suit, and thank God that some of us will live forever even if most of us die in the end.

Just my thoughts.

Your post is like your ID, taking away a valuable, and putting something else in it’s place, Packrat.

While it is true that it doesn’t matter whether we think God is being fair or not, it is God himself that says that he is just and fair. He has told us what that means. He tells us what sin is. That would be disobedience. The soul that sins shall die. That would be fair. The soul that confesses his sin and repents, lives. That would be mercy. The soul that goes back to sinning (not obeying) after having escaped hell, that would be asinine, but if they repent, God will forgive. If they die in a state of unrepentance, God still judges by works so it is still fair. God is not unjust to forget your labors of love. Hebrews 6:9-11

Your opinion is one of a person who has confidence that God is going to save you, based on your cavalier attitude toward hell. This is it: why don’t you thank God that you’re going to hell, and God is going to have mercy on us.

The god you describe is more like a Greek god of mythology, Zeus or something irrational and petty.

:robot:

 

[Packrat]

Your post is like your ID, taking away a valuable, and putting something else in it’s place, Packrat.

While it is true that it doesn’t matter whether we think God is being fair or not, it is God himself that says that he is just and fair. He has told us what that means. He tells us what sin is. That would be disobedience. The soul that sins shall die. That would be fair. The soul that confesses his sin and repents, lives. That would be mercy. The soul that goes back to sinning (not obeying) after having escaped hell, that would be asinine, but if they repent, God will forgive. If they die in a state of unrepentance, God still judges by works so it is still fair. God is not unjust to forget your labors of love. Hebrews 6:9-11

Your opinion is one of a person who has confidence that God is going to save you, based on your cavalier attitude toward hell. This is it: why don’t you thank God that you’re going to hell, and God is going to have mercy on us.

The god you describe is more like a Greek god of mythology, Zeus or something irrational and petty.

:robot:

ow. my butt hurts. i must be thinking too hard.

Your post is like your ID, taking away a valuable, and putting something else in it’s place, Packrat.

My ID? what? who? where? My avatar you mean? what sort of valuable is it taking away?

My only problem with some people's perspectives on fairness and eternal life or eternal damnation is that some people try to attack it at the wrong angle and judge God from their individual perspective of fairness. In all honesty, God is fair in his dealings with us because he has created us. We are his to do with as he pleases. To state that God is fair is nearly common sense because he is God and he is the Creator of all things. If I created some sort of automoton with free will and it always chose to obey me, I would still be fair in my decision if I chose to destroy it.

When I said: In my opinion, God's decisions in this matter have little to do with fairness, I said "little" to do with fairness. Fairness still may be an issue, but are our personal ideals of fairness to be used to examine God's motives for doing what he does? I don't mean to downplay God's fairness or justice, but who can argue against it?

Your opinion is one of a person who has confidence that God is going to save you, based on your cavalier attitude toward hell.

You might call it my personal decision to trust him. Don't get me wrong. In the past, I've believed in both eternal damnation and the God as revealed in Scripture while still doubting his willingness to save me. In fact, not too long ago that doubt resurfaced and hasn't gone away just yet. It was this doubt that eventually caused me to take comfort in the fact or my prevalent belief that at least some people will make it - even if I and many others do not. By knowing that some would have joy, I had a measure of peace.