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"It's Not Fair" so I will not believe it.

aLoneVoice said:
Consider: When you do 'good' do you feel pride for doing 'good'? That pride can be a sin issue.
Of course pride can be a sin. But I would suggest that it is not necessarily a sin of pride to have a general feeling of "satisfaction" or "happiness" that arises specifically when we do good things. I suggest that our bearing the imprint of God's nature ("created in His image) is such as to cause us indeed to "feel good" about "doing good". And I see no problem with this at all. Feeling good about doing good strikes me as the way that God wanted the world to work all along. Does God himself not take "joy" in doing good?
 
Nobody taught me how to steal, lie, make excuse, blame someone/something else, cheat, envy, become jealous, bear false witness, insult ... I knew how to do these things from birth. Ever notice you can "spoil" a child simply by allowing them to do what they want to do? To counter those inherent traits we're taught through repetition not to do them. We hone some of the adverse traits to a fine edge throughout our life even though we are taught not to do them. We become much better at trying to get away with things, blame someone/something else, gossip against someone, how to lie and mix some truth in to disguise it... in short, how not to get caught and still get whatever it is we are after. The good things don't come so easily since doing good doesn't satisfy the sinful nature as much as doing the things that come naturally from the start.

Yes, one can get a warm, fuzzy feeling from doing some "good" here and there but in a lot of those cases the ego is bolstered none-the-less. And doing good in secret is not something many are prone to do. We need applause, recognition or honor of some kind to enhance our self-pride, build ourselves up, to gain approval from the world. The bad things we do in secret, the good we want the whole world to know about.

Living in an apartment building some years back a woman put canned food out at the laundry room for those who wanted/needed it. That was good because quite a few living there couldn't afford much. But, rather than let that be as may she had to pin her picture above the "donated" food.
lol
 
aLoneVoice said:
Again I will ask - if we have good within us apart from regeneration of Christ - then why do we need a Saviour? Could we not operate out of our good nature only?
I see no problem here. The presence of some good within us does not make us "spotless" as I believe we need to be in order to enter into God's presence. So we need a Saviour to transform us from our state of "mixed" good and bad to a state of pure blamelessness.
 
Drew said:
I see no problem here. The presence of some good within us does not make us "spotless" as I believe we need to be in order to enter into God's presence. So we need a Saviour to transform us from our state of "mixed" good and bad to a state of pure blamelessness.

I can agree with this. Does the good save us? No.
Does the bad condemn us? Yes

I don't think total depravity is necessary to keep us from the presence of the father. Whether it's a truth or not doesn't matter. Does total depravity get us any further from God? I don't think degree of distance of a quantitative nature matters much. If I'm not in His presence I'm as far away from Him as anyone else.
 
Drew said:
I see no problem here. The presence of some good within us does not make us "spotless" as I believe we need to be in order to enter into God's presence. So we need a Saviour to transform us from our state of "mixed" good and bad to a state of pure blamelessness.

Drew - that is 'total depravity' - the fact that we are not spotless.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Drew - that is 'total depravity' - the fact that we are not spotless.
Are you sure that your sense of the meaning of the term "total depravity" is consistent with how other people use this term. Some on this board have argued that total depravity means that there is no goodness in us at all. Remember also that one can be "99 % good and only 1% bad" and one is still not "spotless" - to be spotless is to be perfect, so one can be pretty darned good and still not be spotless.

I think that we both may need to clarify precisely what we mean.

When I hear people say that we are "totally depraved", I take this to mean that all our actions spring from evil motivations, even if they have the appearance of goodnees. Do you hold this view?

I do not. I believe that unredeemed men can best be described as having a complex combination of good and evil motivatiuons.

Please elaborate on what you mean when you use the term "total depravity". I think the "spotless" angle has created some confusion.
 
Drew - in most (if not all) languages outside of English - if there is a room full of women you would use the femine form to describe that 'room full of women'. However, if just one male walks into that same group - now when you describe that 'room full of women and one man' you use the masculine form.

In my understanding of Total Depravity and my understanding of our nature as the Bible teaches it is similiar. In that - regardless of how good I am - there is still 'evil' in me. As such, I am total depraved. In other words, apart of Christ and being 'reborn' and regenerated - there is nothing good in me.

We do not have two natures that we operate out of - a good one and an evil one.

We have just one nature - and evil taints it. Can I still 'do good' - yes, but that doesn't mean I have a good nature.

Isaiah 64:6 "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filfthy garmentl and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquites, like the wind, take us away."
 
Hi aLoneVoice:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree for the present. Until the next time.....
 
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