Jehovah's Witnesses

[Khristeeanos]

They came to my door the other day.

It was two girls who are sisters. They were both friendly and I gave them my phone number.

The one girl said that she would come with her husband.

They have yet to call me back, but I also have their phone number and will call them if they don't call me back after a week or two.

They left a pamphlet and I didn't give them anything.

I have a NWT and also their "Kingdom Interlinear Translation" which has the Greek along with the English.

Any prayers and suggestions would be helpful.

 

[Solo]

This is one verse of scripture that will bring confusion onto their faces.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50

And I always ask them about the Word of God. In their NWT they say that the Word is A God, but the Greek does not have "A" in the original. You can ask them about who the Alpha Omega is. You can ask them who is being spoken of in Isaiah 9:6.

The JW do not believe that Jesus is God.
They do not believe that their is a hell.
They do not believe that others will get to heaven but the 144000 JW.
They believe that paradise will be on earth, a new earth.

You can discuss scripture with them, but they will want to control the tempo and the verses. They believe that you are of the devil since you are not a JW, and they can not accept scripture from you because you are trying to pass a devilish trick on them. If they recognize that you know the Bible they will blackball your address, and you will not see them again. That is my experience over the last 22 years.

 

[Free]

It's been a few years since I've had a chat with JWs. I used to do it fairly regularly, as well as with Mormons. One good thing to focus on is the deity of Christ, using passages such as John 1:1-14, Phil. 2:1-11 (being sure not to let them sidetrack you on vs. 11 - "Father"), and Colossians 1:13-20ish (again, they will sidetrack you on vs. 15 - "firstborn of all creation"; point out that "firstborn" is explained in vs. 18 - "firstborn from the dead").

Keep in mind too that with Col. 1:15-17, the NWT has "all [other] things," where "other" is not in the Greek text. Ask them if they know why it is in brackets and if they realize that this significantly changes the meaning of the text. Show them that if they want to keep "other" in the text that this contradicts John 1:3. It is only in Christian translations that it is consistent between the passages in Col. 1 and John 1.

Seeing as how you have a Kingdom Interlinear Translation (something which I would like to get my hands on someday) and a NWT, you may know all of this already and be experienced in talking to them. If you haven't, there are numerous other things you can use to help show the deity of Christ, such as common names for God and Christ. I have it all in my notes at home. Let me know if you would like some more information.

The main thing is when witnessing to them (and anyone for that matter) is to do it in love. They think they are genuinely right and one shouldn't necessarily fault them for that. Show them the love of Christ and the respect that everyone deserves as God's special creation. They are on the same spiritual journey as you and I, that is, seeking for God, but they have chosen, or been given, a path of half-truths and deception which will leave them short of finding the true God.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

You have offered all that you suggest to others in your efforts to convince me that Christ is God Himself, and I offer to you that it has accomplished little is anything except what I stated in my first thread here on this forum.

I find that these people are devoted if misled. They are persistent in their quest to 'spread the word'. Unfortunately they are traveling down the wrong path. The re-writing of the Bible by their creator has left them barren in much of what they need to know. Trinity is not one of these things.

And I too have discussed pertinent issues with JWs on numerous occasions. My conclusion: They are JUST as hard-headed as any other humans when it comes to defending 'their way' as being the 'only way'. Many are very well read and totally faithful to their religion. I wish anyone with intentions of 'helping' these people 'see the light' not to waste their time. They truly believe that they have found it and are more likely to convert than be converted.

 

[guibox]

They do not believe that their is a hell.

They believe in annhilation which is a completely biblical belief.

They believe that paradise will be on earth, a new earth.

The bible does give ample enough evidence of this. After the 1000 year reign in heaven, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and lands on the earth. Why would God create a 'new earth' for no apparent reason? Isaiah 66 gives us the impression that we will be inhabiting the earth and 'from one new moon and from one sabbath to another' we will worship before God in heaven.

Don't just assume that because the JWs believe something different then you that that makes them wrong or a cult. Some of their beliefs are truer to the scriptures then many Protestants.

 

[Solo]

They do not believe that their is a hell.

They believe in annhilation which is a completely biblical belief.

They believe that paradise will be on earth, a new earth.

The bible does give ample enough evidence of this. After the 1000 year reign in heaven, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and lands on the earth. Why would God create a 'new earth' for no apparent reason? Isaiah 66 gives us the impression that we will be inhabiting the earth and 'from one new moon and from one sabbath to another' we will worship before God in heaven.

Don't just assume that because the JWs believe something different then you that that makes them wrong or a cult. Some of their beliefs are truer to the scriptures then many Protestants.

The belief that manifests in the doctrine of the JW that indicates their lack of being born of God is their unbelief that Jesus is God. The other beliefs that I mentioned are askewed from the truth that the scripture reveals. The paradise on earth to the JW is without God being among them. Only the 144,000 get to go to heaven to be with God. Of course the doctrines of the JW have changed over the years, but the biggy is that Jesus is a created being according to the Watchtower.

The Watchtower hierchy is devilish and cultic, while the people are unaware of the untruths and lies of this group. I find that the JW folks that I know are as sincere and caring as anyone that I have met, but the doctrine that is fed to these dear folks is false.

Thanks for the post.
Solo

 

[Free]

Free,

You have offered all that you suggest to others in your efforts to convince me that Christ is God Himself, and I offer to you that it has accomplished little is anything except what I stated in my first thread here on this forum.

If you do not want to believe that Jesus is God, then that is to your detriment; salvation itself rests on this truth and perhaps belief that God is a Trinity. However, this is not about trying to win arguments but rather speaking the truth in the hope that a heart that is truly searching will be enlightened by the truth of Christ.

I find that these people are devoted if misled. They are persistent in their quest to 'spread the word'. Unfortunately they are traveling down the wrong path. The re-writing of the Bible by their creator has left them barren in much of what they need to know. Trinity is not one of these things.

I do admire their hard work and dedication. It's too bad Christians aren't that dedicated. As for their beliefs, they don't believe a whole lot different than you, if I remember correctly. And, yes, the Trinity may very well be "one of those things".

And I too have discussed pertinent issues with JWs on numerous occasions. My conclusion: They are JUST as hard-headed as any other humans when it comes to defending 'their way' as being the 'only way'. Many are very well read and totally faithful to their religion. I wish anyone with intentions of 'helping' these people 'see the light' not to waste their time. They truly believe that they have found it and are more likely to convert than be converted.

But they do convert as websites of former JWs attest to. Spreading the truth of the gospel is hardly a waste of time. But, of course, I do agree that it does get to a point when one must stop speaking to them, but that should be seen through discernment. It may take many encounters with loving Christians who can speak the truth, but we should make the most of every opportunity.

 

[Lonelyguide]

They think they are genuinely right and one shouldn't necessarily fault them for that.

The extent to which we are open-minded will permit us to grasp to which extent these words apply to most of us.

Show them the love of Christ and the respect that everyone deserves as God's special creation.

Precisely! Beautiful! But ... lets not stop at merely doing that for them. Why not ~simply~ do that for everyone?

They are on the same spiritual journey as you and I, that is, seeking for God, but they have chosen, or been given, a path of half-truths and deception which will leave them short of finding the true God.

The extent to which we truly Know will permit us to see the extent to which these words apply to all of us.

 

[Free]

They think they are genuinely right and one shouldn't necessarily fault them for that.

The extent to which we are open-minded will permit us to grasp to which extent these words apply to most of us.

Certainly we need to be fairly open-minded, but we also need to judge teachings claiming to be Christian by orthodox Christian belief. The problem is that JWs and Mormons claim to be Christian, but when compared to orthodox or historical Christian beliefs and doctrine, they are fatally heretical.

Precisely! Beautiful! But ... lets not stop at merely doing that for them. Why not ~simply~ do that for everyone?

But of course. ;) Since this thread is about talking to JWs, I didn't think it necessary to go further.

They are on the same spiritual journey as you and I, that is, seeking for God, but they have chosen, or been given, a path of half-truths and deception which will leave them short of finding the true God.

The extent to which we truly Know will permit us to see the extent to which these words apply to all of us.

But again, even though there is disagreement among us and many Christians regarding certain doctrinal beliefs, there are beliefs about God and Christ which, being false, will not lead one to God.

Most doctrinal disagreements among Christians won't leave one short of finding life in Christ, but they can, and do, hinder our walk. That is something that we will always struggle with but should continually search for the truth on such matters. But the disagreements between Christianity and JWs (and Mormonism) are such that one cannot refer to JWs and Mormons as Christians; they follow a different Christ, a different gospel and a different God, leaving them short of life in Christ.

My point being, if one wants to be a Christian, they ought to follow orthodox Christian belief.

 

[Lonelyguide]

They think they are genuinely right and one shouldn't necessarily fault them for that.

The extent to which we are open-minded will permit us to grasp to which extent these words apply to most of us.

Certainly we need to be fairly open-minded, but we also need to judge teachings claiming to be Christian by orthodox Christian belief. The problem is that JWs and Mormons claim to be Christian, but when compared to orthodox or historical Christian beliefs and doctrine, they are fatally heretical.

For me the greatest heresies we can commit are not doing what we should be doing when we have been told and very well know what we should and should not be doing ... such as judging others. Most of the so-called Christians I meet know God's Word or do at least have some sort of understanding of that Word, but nonetheless spend most of their time applying those Words on others rather than on themselves. Gandhi said "This world would be a much better world if Buddhists were better Buddhists, if Muslims were better Muslims and if Christians were better Christians." I concur wholeheartedly and would welcome it if people were to spend more time on being honest with themselves rather than with others. Matthew 7:5

Show them the love of Christ and the respect that everyone deserves as God's special creation.

Precisely! Beautiful! But ... lets not stop at merely doing that for them. Why not ~simply~ do that for everyone?

But of course. ;) Since this thread is about talking to JWs, I didn't think it necessary to go further.

Oh really? And how about Mark 12:30-31?

They are on the same spiritual journey as you and I, that is, seeking for God, but they have chosen, or been given, a path of half-truths and deception which will leave them short of finding the true God.

The extent to which we truly Know will permit us to see the extent to which these words apply to all of us.

But again, even though there is disagreement among us and many Christians regarding certain doctrinal beliefs, there are beliefs about God and Christ which, being false, will not lead one to God.

Most doctrinal disagreements among Christians won't leave one short of finding life in Christ, but they can, and do, hinder our walk. That is something that we will always struggle with but should continually search for the truth on such matters. But the disagreements between Christianity and JWs (and Mormonism) are such that one cannot refer to JWs and Mormons as Christians; they follow a different Christ, a different gospel and a different God, leaving them short of life in Christ.

My point being, if one wants to be a Christian, they ought to follow orthodox Christian belief.

Dear Free, I was taking about other things than doctrine and was trying to make you see something rather different. Let me, in reply to what you are entering now, however, simply say that none of us have a mandate to decide who will be saved or lost. Ephesians 2:8-9 has something to say about that.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Seeing as how you have a Kingdom Interlinear Translation (something which I would like to get my hands on someday) and a NWT, you may know all of this already and be experienced in talking to them.

I bid for mine on e-bay. There are always copies up for sale there.

I think mine was rather inexpensive - 10 or 20 dollars maybe?


WELL worth the investement.

 

[Free]

For me the greatest heresies we can commit are not doing what we should be doing when we have been told and very well know what we should and should not be doing ... such as judging others.

If you think that we are not to judge the teachings of those claiming to be Christian, then you are dead wrong. The whole of the NT does precisely this. If I need to go into Scripture to support that argument...

Most of the so-called Christians I meet know God's Word or do at least have some sort of understanding of that Word, but nonetheless spend most of their time applying those Words on others rather than on themselves.

Don't you find it hypocritical to say in one breath that we should not be judging others and then in the next you judge others?

But of course. ;) Since this thread is about talking to JWs, I didn't think it necessary to go further.

Oh really? And how about Mark 12:30-31?

What about it? As I said, this thread is about JWs, to whom I applied my statements.

Dear Free, I was taking about other things than doctrine and was trying to make you see something rather different. Let me, in reply to what you are entering now, however, simply say that none of us have a mandate to decide who will be saved or lost. Ephesians 2:8-9 has something to say about that.

But yet we are to judge the truth from the darkness and those who don't believe the truth will not be saved.

 

[Free]

Bonsai,

I've looked for old Mormon material on there and for some reason I never thought of looking for JW stuff. Someday when I have extra money...

Thanks for the tip. :D

 

[Solo]

I know that we are all going to be judged, so the judge not lest ye be judged doesn't mean much to me, other than I am getting a head start judging others by the Word of God by whom we all will ultimately be judged. :wink:

 

[Lonelyguide]

Most of the so-called Christians I meet know God's Word or do at least have some sort of understanding of that Word, but nonetheless spend most of their time applying those Words on others rather than on themselves.

Don't you find it hypocritical to say in one breath that we should not be judging others and then in the next you judge others?

Would you, after reading Matthew 7:3-5 have accused Jesus of being a hypocrite? Since when does reminding others that we are not to judge ... when they ARE judging ... constitute judgement?

Free ... and Solo,

We appear to be "on different pages" and do therefore see different priorities. My "JUDGEMENT" thread in the General Talk forum and the link to my post in page 4 of the Bodhisattva thread explain.

 

[Free]

Would you, after reading Matthew 7:3-5 have accused Jesus of being a hypocrite? Since when does reminding others that we are not to judge ... when they ARE judging ... constitute judgement?

Firstly, you are taking the passage out of context. It is the most misused verse in recent times precisely because people don't want their beliefs to be judged wrong. This passage is speaking about making hypocritical judgements, not suspending judgement altogether.

John 7:24, "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

Secondly, you were not reminding others that we are supposedly not to judge. You were passing judgement both on others' salvation and others' understanding of the Word:

"Most of the so-called Christians I meet know God's Word or do at least have some sort of understanding of that Word".

In another thread you also judged someone else's truth, implying that they don't have the whole truth. And your "reminding" isn't reminding, you are judging others for judging others.

It's just hypocritical that's all I'm saying.

Again, the Bible tells us to judge what is truth from what is false and the biblical example is consistent with doing that. We have to be able to judge false doctrine from the truth or we may as well just believe whatever we want. And this seems to be one of the biggest problems in the Church today as well as the world.

 

[Solo]

Most of the so-called Christians I meet know God's Word or do at least have some sort of understanding of that Word, but nonetheless spend most of their time applying those Words on others rather than on themselves.

Don't you find it hypocritical to say in one breath that we should not be judging others and then in the next you judge others?

Would you, after reading Matthew 7:3-5 have accused Jesus of being a hypocrite? Since when does reminding others that we are not to judge ... when they ARE judging ... constitute judgement?

Free ... and Solo,

We appear to be "on different pages" and do therefore see different priorities. My "JUDGEMENT" thread in the General Talk forum and the link to my post in page 4 of the Bodhisattva thread explain.

Most that are placed under the obedience required by the Word of God always quote the "judge not lest ye be judged" verse, without giving a complete Biblical disertation of what judging is all about. The bottom line is that the Word of God will judge all mankind one day, and his Word is alive and well today by which those that are born again can warn, correct, reproof, and establish truth. This is not judging, it is discerning and obeying the Holy Spirit who is the only one that interprets the Word of God correctly.

If a person is walking in another direction than the Word of God directs then it is those of us who are born again to warn those of their error.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16

Hopefully you abide in the correct doctrine of the Word of God, and use it for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness so that you may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Many religions of man fail at the point of having correct doctrine and it is up to those of us who know the Word of God to lift those who don't, out of the pit.

Thanks,
Solo

 

[Lonelyguide]

Well, Solo, all of that, including the "discerning/judgement" alibi I have heard so often, sounds wonderful, but as long as you can enter posts like this:

I know that we are all going to be judged, so the judge not lest ye be judged doesn't mean much to me, other than I am getting a head start judging others by the Word of God by whom we all will ultimately be judged.

and as long as you consequently demonstrate that our Saviour's words, if not some of our Saviour's most essential words, don't mean a thing ("doesn't mean much to me") to you, the ideas you and I have about Christianity differ so much, that I don't think that there is much sense in exchanges.


Free,

I have tried to outline the somewhat wider context of judgement in a thread in the General Talk forum. To also provide a proper explanation of what was meant by the "right judgement" you mention above ... context and all ... would take the better part of an afternoon. I wish I did, but I don't, much to my regret, dispose of that kind of time these days. Most unfortunate, because what was meant by "right judgement" and what you ostensibly conclude it to be are two rather different things. So I guess that, for now, I will have to leave you to your judging ... including your judgements of me. It is like I said previously ... we are on different pages.

John 7:24 ... of all verses ...
Everything, Free, even if we cannot see it, is orchestration ... to an extent which is beyond our wildest imagenings.
Or, if you like, often Holy Spirit tries to tell us things ...
But often we don't get it ...

 

[Free]

So I guess that, for now, I will have to leave you to your judging ... including your judgements of me.

Again, this is hypocritical. I am stating that I think you are wrong on certain things, but you are doing the same. We are both judging each other in the same way. :-?

 

[Lonelyguide]

I have, in different parts of this world, spent a great deal of my life studying such "disciplines" as philosophy, psychology and spirituality, I have been allowed to meet some rather unusual human beings and I have been blessed with some rather rare spiritual privileges. All of this, however, has primarily taught me that I am not young enough, Free, to believe or pretend that I know everything. I am merely old enough (nearly 56) to know how very little I know.

We are all equal, Free ... in the eyes of our Father none of us is more than another ... but there is a path and reality is that we haven't all progressed equally far on that path. Thus, some of us are somewhat better equipped to help others on their path, whereas others aren't. By the way, am I right if I say that you are about half my age?

I trust that you understand that what you now "see" in "me", Free, are merely your own projections and that these projections consequently are primarily a reflection of what resides in you.